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Thread: Harder Cast versus Hard Cast

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Harder Cast versus Hard Cast

    Since we know that lead runs somewhere around 5 BHN and 6 BHN is harder than 5 BHN and we know 7 BHN is harder than 5 and 6 BHN and 8 BHN is harder than 5, 6, and 7 BHN and 9 BHN is harder than 5, 6, 7, and 8 BHN and 10 BHN is harder than 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 BHN and 11 BHN is harder than 5-10 BHN and 15 BHN is harder than 5-14 BHN then what is hard cast since we can buy cast bullets and make our own heat treated cast bullets that exceed Linotype metal (I have measured some I did that exceeded Linotype by a few points) what is hard cast since there is so many points of BHN's that can be obtained?
    Keeping in mind that "hard" is a relative term are we saying use harder bullets or "hard" bullets whatever they may be, since we have choices if we cast our own?
    What range does each have if we have soft cast , medium hard cast and hard cast?
    Or do we have soft, harder soft, medium, harder medium, hard, harder hard and super hard and harder super hard?
    Where does each fall?

  2. #2
    Boolit Master 243winxb's Avatar
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    Standard used by some bullet companies.

    Rotometals-- Hardball Bullet Casting Alloy consists of 2% tin, 6% antimony and 92% lead. This modern version of the old Lyman #2 is an excellent all-around alloy for most handgun bullets and many higher velocity rifle cartridges. The Brinell Hardness of Hardball Alloy is about 16.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by 243winxb View Post
    Standard used by some bullet companies.
    Does that mean that about 16 BHN is hard cast since it is harder than softer BHN bullets or is it medium hard or softer or harder medium based on a scale from 5 to the hardest that can be obtained in a lead alloy bullet which can be above 20-22 BHN?

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    goopd question I use < 10 soft, 10-15 med hard, 15> hard and over 20 real hard. I have to chuckle a bit when I cast for sale described as ure alloy 7-15 BHN or some similar description. Pure alloy implies consistent and should be
    +/- one point BHN I think.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Thumbcocker's Avatar
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    Hard cast is the "match grade" of boolit metal. That should clear it up.
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  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    LOL.

    I use Lyman #2 for my bullets. When I bought commercial 'hard cast' they were above that, based on informal observation. When loose in a box and shaken a bit the 'hard cast' showed almost no change. OTOH, my Lyman #2 bullets showed dings where other bullets had hit each other.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumbcocker View Post
    Hard cast is the "match grade" of boolit metal. That should clear it up.
    But how hard is the "hard" in match grade? Could the hardness vary and still give "match grade" bullets?

  8. #8
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    My match grade boolits test at about 11 BHN.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    But how hard is the "hard" in match grade? Could the hardness vary and still give "match grade" bullets?
    You missed the point. The "match grade" title is slapped on even garbage ammo.

  10. #10
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    Any cast bullets of 15 BHN or higher are considered "hard cast". That is a term most commercial casters use and the "standard" they apparently set.
    Larry Gibson

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    Plumbers lead is also called pure lead though it tests out closer to 7 BHN and pure supposedly is 5 bhn. I like Elmers definition of Hard being 1 pt tin in 12 pts lead instead of his regular 1 in 16 or 20. The only reason to use the term "Hard or Hard Cast" is when trying to communicate with those individuals who think the authors and editors of gun magazines have are knowledge and are the only dispersion fonts out there.
    They deserve the same invitation Philip gave Nathanael in the Bible. "Come and See". If they cannot visit a range and see what a good alloy can do it's their loss.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT Gianni View Post
    Plumbers lead is also called pure lead though it tests out closer to 7 BHN and pure supposedly is 5 bhn. I like Elmers definition of Hard being 1 pt tin in 12 pts lead instead of his regular 1 in 16 or 20. The only reason to use the term "Hard or Hard Cast" is when trying to communicate with those individuals who think the authors and editors of gun magazines have are knowledge and are the only dispersion fonts out there.
    They deserve the same invitation Philip gave Nathanael in the Bible. "Come and See". If they cannot visit a range and see what a good alloy can do it's their loss.
    But what is hard or hard cast by the BHN since the word hard is a relative term.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    the testing by lead pencil seems like a good way to go....I reloaded some "harder cast" boolits given to me,for a mate to use in his .44magnum...pushed along with 6grns of ap50 shotgun powder..mild load..he shot bailed boar at close range,boar was about 110lbs,in front of head,boolit recovered from back of neck,top of shoulder,SLIGHT deformation of very tip (keith 240grn) but I could just about have poked it back in another case for round 2.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    But what is hard or hard cast by the BHN since the word hard is a relative term.


    Just what Larry said. "Hard" is 15-16 BHN. This means you can't scratch it with a thumbnail, it likely will not obturate with any load less than +P and will not mushroom in a deer. 18-22 and up BHN are usually, and I say this with a guess, normally reserved for extreme pressure cartridges. Casull, Linebaugh, Bowen, etc. Very large bears, buffalo, even large boar would be a good call for a hard boolit where penetration is critical.

    Typically a softer alloy will work much better in a handgun at 12 or less BHN. 44m and 45Colt can get great accuracy, little or no leading, excellent performance on thin skinned game, with an alloy you can scratch with a thumbnail, we know it as 50/50+2% (even though that doesn't add up to 100%).

    That is MY understanding of the three grades of hardness and how they apply to handgun loads. YMMV..

    For what it's worth, a lot of the commercially cast boolits are very hard, 22BHN is pretty common for commercial cast, some casters will drop boolits in softer alloy if you ask them.

    I am not a fan of commercial cast because they are too hard, and they use that hard as a new crayon lube that basically does nothing but lead the daylights out of a barrel even when throat diameters are correct.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougGuy View Post
    Just what Larry said. "Hard" is 15-16 BHN. This means you can't scratch it with a thumbnail, it likely will not obturate with any load less than +P and will not mushroom in a deer. 18-22 and up BHN are usually, and I say this with a guess, normally reserved for extreme pressure cartridges. Casull, Linebaugh, Bowen, etc. Very large bears, buffalo, even large boar would be a good call for a hard boolit where penetration is critical.

    Typically a softer alloy will work much better in a handgun at 12 or less BHN. 44m and 45Colt can get great accuracy, little or no leading, excellent performance on thin skinned game, with an alloy you can scratch with a thumbnail, we know it as 50/50+2% (even though that doesn't add up to 100%).

    That is MY understanding of the three grades of hardness and how they apply to handgun loads. YMMV..
    I was more leaning to the meaning of hard and it relativity to where hard is from 5 to let's say 25 BHN. Different HARDNESS of bullets can be made to work well depending on how much one wants to experiment.
    But where does HARD fall on the BHN scale from 5 BHN to 25 BHN?
    If 15 BHN is hard what is 22 BHN?
    If 6 BHN is soft what is 10 BHN? It is HARD compared to 6 BHN but not as HARD as 15BHN. Etc, Etc and Etc..

  16. #16
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    My mom used to call me hard headed. Not sure what BHN that is.

  17. #17
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    I'll go with 15-16 as hard cast, Lyman #2. Over that, still hard cast just harder, so maybe super hard cast? I used to shoot lino for everything because I had a bunch. Lino is 22bhn. Most of us are shooting much softer alloys than even #2.
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  18. #18
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    I use the finger nail test. If my fingernail will make a mark, it’s soft. If it won’t it’s hard.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE View Post
    I use the finger nail test. If my fingernail will make a mark, it’s soft. If it won’t it’s hard.
    So if the bullet can be scratched it is "soft" and if it can't it is "hard"?
    "Soft" or "hard" relative to what? Since there is span of BHN's where does "soft" fall and where does "hard"fall?

  20. #20
    Boolit Master TurnipEaterDown's Avatar
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    What's the purpose of the question: i.e. what will be done with the information?

    Some questions & answers are subjective, some are objective.
    No offense, but this seems mixed at best (re: subjective & objective), and w/o understanding the purpose of the question, very hard to give targeted answer.

    i.e. IF you need a precise Scale to soft/firm/hard/really hard, what do you intend to use it for?
    Many conversations on here about how BHN doesn't really relate to combustion pressure capability, so perhaps if you could define the use intended, an answer could be provided.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check