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Thread: Perfect boolit?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master nueces5's Avatar
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    Perfect boolit?

    hi everyone im about to start casting my lead to start casting boolits and shooting this year.
    Last year doing long range with my 308 and the 311466 I had good results up to 600 meters, from then on the shots were not predictable on target
    So last year in another post, they recommended me to try with some heavier boolits, I have a mold for my mauser a little "fatter" the lyman 314299, I was thinking of sizing it to 309 and then try those 190 grains.
    Larry also recommended me to pay special attention that the boolits come out perfect, and here comes the question:
    What do you consider a perfect boolit?

  2. #2
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    Winger Ed.'s Avatar
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    Good fill out, consistent weight, smooth/clean cut on the sprue, and just a little hint of frosting (optionable).
    In school: We learn lessons, and are given tests.
    In life: We are given tests, and learn lessons.


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  3. #3
    Boolit Master Shopdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winger Ed. View Post
    Good fill out, consistent weight, smooth/clean cut on the sprue, and just a little hint of frosting (optionable).
    Plus one on winger's post. When all is right with my casting.... the weight consistency is uncanny close. Sayin,weigh 10 and 8 will be spot on,the other 2,within a .1 grain or so.

    Just an opinion but,working on those items listed in above post comes before chasing just about anything else. Good luck with your project.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Mostly it is with fewer voids. No, you can't see them, but, sometimes there will be a weight difference.

    Weight sort your bullets in 0.1gn batches. The top 4 or 5 batches will be your best shooters.

    Cosmetic is the next sort. For 'perfection' toss anything that has a flaw.

    For my casting skill the result is about 20% of the bullets I cast. The rest are still fired, just at shorter ranges.

    Some folks have claimed to cast bullets that all weigh within 0.1gn. If you can do that, then I would say you are doing a perfect job. I can't. Mine are usually all within a 1.0gn range (except when I 'flub' a cast).

  5. #5
    Boolit Master nueces5's Avatar
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    Thanks for the answers
    Sprue plates never cut perfect so I'm going to sit at the scale and batch
    then I'll do as you tell me and any cosmetic blemishes, and go back to the pot
    then he will go to the sizing die and put gascheck on it and the pc

  6. #6
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    Winger Ed.'s Avatar
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    Just a guess--- but you might be cutting your sprues after they cool a bit too long.

    I run my pot a little on the hot side, after a pour,, I leave a rather large sprue puddle,
    the make the cut as soon as the color changes on top of the puddle from shiny to dull.

    The melt is still pretty hot, and I don't bang on the sprue plate.
    Wearing a welding glove, I turn the plate by hand,
    firmly-- but not hard bearing downward on it. At that point-- It's not very hard to turn either.
    In school: We learn lessons, and are given tests.
    In life: We are given tests, and learn lessons.


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  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    There is a trick to a good sprue cut, though I'm not 100% sure my kung fu is perfected. Timing the cut to the color of the hardening sprue seems to be part of it, but I also pinch the sprue plate against the blocks with a gloved hand while I'm tapping the sprue plate at 90 degrees with my NOE mold mallet. Seems to help keep the sprue plate from climbing away from the blocks.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    There is a trick to a good sprue cut, though .
    Thanks for that.. Now I feel vindicated!
    In school: We learn lessons, and are given tests.
    In life: We are given tests, and learn lessons.


    OK People. Enough of this idle chit-chat.
    This ain't your Grandma's sewing circle.
    EVERYONE!
    Back to your oars. The Captain wants to waterski.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    There is a trick to a good sprue cut, though I'm not 100% sure my kung fu is perfected. Timing the cut to the color of the hardening sprue seems to be part of it, but I also pinch the sprue plate against the blocks with a gloved hand while I'm tapping the sprue plate at 90 degrees with my NOE mold mallet. Seems to help keep the sprue plate from climbing away from the blocks.
    This is almost exactly the way I do it, only I do as Ed does and use heavy gloves. I never use a mallet.

  10. #10
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    Ten years ago, I thought I was casting pretty good bullets, excellent in fact. However. the more I got into shooting cast bullets at HV I found while I was casting good, excellent bullets I too hit the accuracy wall that is alluded to. I also found that when those cast bullets were pushed to really HV (2500 - 3000+ fps) they did not do as well as expected. Back then I was weight sorting as we've all been told to. If you line them out by weight you get the so called "bell curve". In proving insanity, I, like you and everyone else, then did the same testing of each .1 gr testing over and over again expecting different results.....however we all got the same results; accuracy was not really improved via that method no matter how many times we weight sorted with that method.

    Let's assume we have a mould that will cast perfectly even bullets in all dimensions. Not an assumption but the fact is every mould cavity has a finite capacity for any alloy. Thus, if we cast with an excellent giving the best fillout with minimal shrinkage then we much understan only those bullets that weigh the heaviest will have filled the mould out completely with minimal shrinkage. An excellent alloy is necessary because we cannot control where on the bullet the shrinkage may occur and if the shrinkage will be consistent. Any bullets with less weight are then not dimensionally the same as they either didn't fill completely fill out or the alloy did not shrink consistently. We may not be able to measure other than weighing that difference, but the difference is there in lighter weight lighter weight bullets none the less. Now, knowing that difference in weight (mass) is there but it is not predictable where.....we don't know where in or on the bullet that difference in weight is missing from. The missing weight is what creates the imbalance. I suspect voids in the alloy are not the problem as has been suggested by many "experts" over so many years, but rather other aspects of incomplete fillout and shrinkage are the cause which I have previously discussed.

    I recently cast 542 NOE 30 XCB bullets of #2 alloy. I have just completed weight sorting them. In the next post I will show the graphed results of the weight sort which should aptly demonstrate what I'm saying. Have to copy, download, etc. so it will be an hour or so.

    Here is I weight sort. Using my NOE 310-165-FN mould 542 bullets were cast of Lyman #2 alloy and WQ'd. They were then aged about 12 days before I got around to weight sorting. Here is my set up for weight sorting and how I accomplish the task. I visually inspect each bullet under a magnifying glass for any defect. If any is found that bullet is rejected to be melted and recast at a later casting session. Those bullets which pass my anal visual inspection then have any remnant of the sprue cut off. That is done on the lead block with a sharp blade on the pocketknife. The bullet is then weighed on the Redding balance beam scale. While waiting for the beam to settle I then visually examine, and sprue cut another bullet. With the magnifier in front of the scale I can readily and accurately see what the weighed bullets exact weight is. The bullet is then placed in a bin for that weight.

    Of the 542 bullets weighed 22 were rejected for a visual defect or because they weighed less than 156.9 gr which means the weighed ones had passed the visual inspection but still weighed way lite. The remaining 520 XCBs were weight sorted into separate bins of .1 gr increment from 156.9 gr to 158.0 gr......a 1.1 gr spread. The majority were in the heavy end at 157.8, 157.7 and 158.0. Those were selected for "match" level grade cast bullets. The 156.9 gr to 157.7 gr were used for practice, foulers and sighters.

    This is what excellent "as cast" bullets should look like.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If your bullets have any frosting, are out of round or have little davits (as in the circled area on these 3 bullets) then they are not as "perfect" as can be cast and should be rejected or relegated to "casual shooting".

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 01-28-2023 at 10:12 PM.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
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  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    I batch weigh all my cast bullets by .01 gr, every cartridge in the 50 round box weights the same, all same weight boxes are taken for matches, all the od weights are used for practice or back in the pot. I batch weigh all my jacked bullets for matches and sort the same way.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master nueces5's Avatar
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    Thanks for the answers, I see that I have a lot of work ahead of me.
    I really don't understand why the boolits have to have that bright color, no frostys, does anyone know?
    Larry, what temperature do you set your oven to?
    Right now I have painted my reload and cast room, but as soon as I connect everything in the new place I will make a good batch and I will post the photos for you to see and tell me what you think

  13. #13
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    Except for bullets of 300+ gr weight I cast with a bottom pour Lyman Mag20. I keep the alloy at 710 - 725 degrees when casting. I use two thermometers, one measures the bottom half and the other the top half. I adjust the casting tempo to not overheat the mould.

    If the bullets are frosty it means basically one or both of two things. The alloy and/or mould are too hot. In either or both cases the alloy in the cavity will shrink more. In many cases, especially where there are frosty places on the bullet. We can not control the shrinkage and with such the shrinkage will probably not be equal on the bullet. Thus, we get out of round bullets, small divits in the bullet, and spots on the bullet that are dished in slightly. All that leads to unbalanced bullets. Also too high a content of antimony vs tin in the alloy when cast with a hotter alloy or too hot a mould causes antimony spots (they look like frost, on the bullet because the excess antimony not in solution with the lead will solidify first before the lead. Antimony also has a much higher shrinkage rate than lead or a ternary alloy. That induces imbalances in the bullets.

    Remember it it those imbalances in bullets, jacketed or cast, that are acted upon by the centrifugal force of the RPM rate. It is the reason we shoot "groups" instead of every bullet going through the same hole in the target. The longer the range, the higher the RPM, the greater the dispersion of the bullets on target. I.e. the larger the group.

    If getting the best possible accuracy out of your rifles and cast bullets is the name of the game, then you must learn to cast as close to a perfectly balanced bullet as you can. I've found when casting bullets the difference in casting a good bullet vs an excellent bullet really isn't much different.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  14. #14
    Boolit Master nueces5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Except for bullets of 300+ gr weight I cast with a bottom pour Lyman Mag20. I keep the alloy at 710 - 725 degrees when casting. I use two thermometers, one measures the bottom half and the other the top half. I adjust the casting tempo to not overheat the mould.

    If the bullets are frosty it means basically one or both of two things. The alloy and/or mould are too hot. In either or both cases the alloy in the cavity will shrink more. In many cases, especially where there are frosty places on the bullet. We can not control the shrinkage and with such the shrinkage will probably not be equal on the bullet. Thus, we get out of round bullets, small divits in the bullet, and spots on the bullet that are dished in slightly. All that leads to unbalanced bullets. Also too high a content of antimony vs tin in the alloy when cast with a hotter alloy or too hot a mould causes antimony spots (they look like frost, on the bullet because the excess antimony not in solution with the lead will solidify first before the lead. Antimony also has a much higher shrinkage rate than lead or a ternary alloy. That induces imbalances in the bullets.

    Remember it it those imbalances in bullets, jacketed or cast, that are acted upon by the centrifugal force of the RPM rate. It is the reason we shoot "groups" instead of every bullet going through the same hole in the target. The longer the range, the higher the RPM, the greater the dispersion of the bullets on target. I.e. the larger the group.

    If getting the best possible accuracy out of your rifles and cast bullets is the name of the game, then you must learn to cast as close to a perfectly balanced bullet as you can. I've found when casting bullets the difference in casting a good bullet vs an excellent bullet really isn't much different.
    great answer larry, I already have two or three things to lean on to start looking for quality in my boolits.
    Thank you very much for answering

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by high standard 40 View Post
    This is almost exactly the way I do it, only I do as Ed does and use heavy gloves. I never use a mallet.
    That's a part of the kung fu mystery. I've had a number of sessions where hand pressure alone is sufficient to cut the sprue, but others where by the time I'm confident the fill has solidified, it needs a tap to make the cut. My guess is that it's alloy-based, and that these tougher alloys used for higher speeds put up too much resistance.

    Gear tip: If you haven't discovered the Ove Glove, I consider it a NEED. While welding gloves protect against short contacts with hot things, the Ove Glove gives enough insulation to allow considerably more contact time with mold blocks and sprue plates.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    That's a part of the kung fu mystery. I've had a number of sessions where hand pressure alone is sufficient to cut the sprue, but others where by the time I'm confident the fill has solidified, it needs a tap to make the cut. My guess is that it's alloy-based, and that these tougher alloys used for higher speeds put up too much resistance.

    Gear tip: If you haven't discovered the Ove Glove, I consider it a NEED. While welding gloves protect against short contacts with hot things, the Ove Glove gives enough insulation to allow considerably more contact time with mold blocks and sprue plates.
    I'm sure the type of alloy used has some influence on the ease or difficulty in cutting the sprue. The vast majority of the bullets I cast are from an RCBS 7mm 145 Sil mold. No doubt a larger heavier bullet may require a longer wait before attempting to cut the sprue. For the mold I mentioned a gloved hand makes a clean cut and the mallet is not needed.
    Also I agree with Larry concerning frosty areas on an otherwise shiney bullet. In my experience that frosty spot indicated a shrinkage and thus an unbalanced projectile.

  17. #17
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    A heavy for caliber Loverin is pretty tough to beat in pretty much any bore size.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
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  18. #18
    Boolit Master slim1836's Avatar
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    Larry,

    Do you repeat the process of weight sorting after lubing/powder coating, and gas check installation prior to loading? Just curious in my strive to continue learning.

    Slim
    JUST GOTTA LOVE THIS JOINT.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Except for bullets of 300+ gr weight I cast with a bottom pour Lyman Mag20. I keep the alloy at 710 - 725 degrees when casting. I use two thermometers, one measures the bottom half and the other the top half. I adjust the casting tempo to not overheat the mould.

    If the bullets are frosty it means basically one or both of two things. The alloy and/or mould are too hot. In either or both cases the alloy in the cavity will shrink more. In many cases, especially where there are frosty places on the bullet. We can not control the shrinkage and with such the shrinkage will probably not be equal on the bullet. Thus, we get out of round bullets, small divits in the bullet, and spots on the bullet that are dished in slightly. All that leads to unbalanced bullets. Also too high a content of antimony vs tin in the alloy when cast with a hotter alloy or too hot a mould causes antimony spots (they look like frost, on the bullet because the excess antimony not in solution with the lead will solidify first before the lead. Antimony also has a much higher shrinkage rate than lead or a ternary alloy. That induces imbalances in the bullets.

    Remember it it those imbalances in bullets, jacketed or cast, that are acted upon by the centrifugal force of the RPM rate. It is the reason we shoot "groups" instead of every bullet going through the same hole in the target. The longer the range, the higher the RPM, the greater the dispersion of the bullets on target. I.e. the larger the group.

    If getting the best possible accuracy out of your rifles and cast bullets is the name of the game, then you must learn to cast as close to a perfectly balanced bullet as you can. I've found when casting bullets the difference in casting a good bullet vs an excellent bullet really isn't much different.
    ^^^^ Good post. Consistent mold temperature is the most difficult casting variable to minimize.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Does anybody measure the temperature of the mold while casting?
    *
    Can water dropping cause deformation or imbalance? I imagine the area that hits the water first might contract.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
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GC Gas Check