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Thread: .45 acp super soft bhn experiment

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    When we designed a .45acp HP for short barrel pistols (3.5") we used straight wheel weights. It was soft enough to get reliable expansion in beef at around 750fps. Yes, the final tests were done with a large beef roast with two layers of denim over it. It was over 10" penetration and expansion to almost 3/4". The bullets would also penetrate/break a 2" wet oak dowel. The mold used was the Lee 228RN. The key was the design of the HP. We went through 5 or 6 different designs to get one that worked and did not plug up with the cloth. Final bullet weight was just under 200gn. This was done 30 years ago. Since then better factory HPs became available so we dropped the project.

    And, yes, one design did badly in the chambering process, deforming when it hit the ramp.

    So, short answer is, you can just go with WW instead of pure lead. Whichever is easier for you will work.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master mehavey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LG
    I have BHN tested numerous samples of certified pure lead and always have come up with 7.0
    These are measured numbers. Pure Lead, 30-1, and Lym#2 all RotoMetal
    (Note that Lym#2 -- by definition BHN15 -- comes out at 14.9)
    And as the Lee is only dependent on a spring constant, I'm pretty confident in the numbers
    as they are as repeatable day-day/month-month/year-year as the sun coming up.


    NOTE-1: discussion of pure lead <5.0 here:
    http://www.texas-mac.com/Evaluations...s_Testers.html
    NOTE-2: Blue line is actual calculation of the Brinell force/indentation diameter converted to English lb/sq-in

    postscript: 45 ACP/pure lead works fine.
    Classic RN shape most helpful in not getting caught up on ramp lip.
    Last edited by mehavey; 01-21-2023 at 11:24 PM.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    The nice thing about a super soft boolit is that the old standard hardball profile will deform on impact in most live targets, even without a hollow point. That one thing puts the 45 ACP at least on a close par to the 45 LC using BP.

  4. #24
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    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    The question was basically why does the NSIS say the BHN of 100% pure lead is 7 and everyone else seems to say it is 5 BHN give or take?

    My own BHN measurements agree with the other BHN measurements listed by NSIS and everyone else but only agree with NSIS on the BHN of pure lead. I still get a BHN of 7 +/- with some certified pure lead I bought.

    If someone has some 4 - 5 BHN lead I would like to get [I'll pay for it with shipping] useful sample?
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  5. #25
    Boolit Master mehavey's Avatar
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    It was reactor (shielding) lead, Larry, since repeated with RotoMetal lead (IIRC).
    But let me ship you a couple of RotoMetal/pure lead wide flat-nose 45s and see what you get on your tester.
    PM me w/ an address....

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    Could the word "pure" be a relative term?
    Since nothing or no one is perfect we would assume, there is that famous word assume, that "pure" is near perfect in "pure" definition of the word. What if the word is used meaning more nearly "pure" but at the same time not the purest of the "pure" lead that could be obtained?
    Maybe with the company that sold the lead got it from a company that said it is "pure" but really is only 99 percent pure or maybe 99.1 percent "pure" instead of 99.9 percent "pure" that we take as being as "pure" as "pure" can be in an imperfect world.
    Maybe some other metal is still in the "pure" lead.
    We are possibly an assuming group???
    Last edited by 44MAG#1; 01-23-2023 at 12:22 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mehavey View Post
    It was reactor (shielding) lead, Larry, since repeated with RotoMetal lead (IIRC).
    But let me ship you a couple of RotoMetal/pure lead wide flat-nose 45s and see what you get on your tester.
    PM me w/ an address....
    PM sent
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    We used 99.95% (oxygen free) as 'pure' for copper in the wire industry. Rotometals lists pure lead as 99.9%.

    I have used 'ultra-pure' copper in lab work (high vacuum, high temp) and it was listed as better than 99.999%.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    We used 99.95% (oxygen free) as 'pure' for copper in the wire industry. Rotometals lists pure lead as 99.9%.

    I have used 'ultra-pure' copper in lab work (high vacuum, high temp) and it was listed as better than 99.999%.
    I would say that is as "pure" as "pure" gets in an imperfect world.

  10. #30
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    “Smelting” is a relative term, but not “pure.”

  11. #31
    Boolit Grand Master fredj338's Avatar
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    LHP expansion has a lot to do with the HP design. You dont need dead soft lead to get good expansion. When I cast LHP for low vel 45acp, its usually 25-1/lead-tin. The tin is mostly to help fill the nose of the HP out, expands great down to 800fps, below that, you'll want a larger/deeper HP.
    EVERY GOOD SHOOTER NEEDS TO BE A HANDLOADER.
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  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    el cheapo GONRA loads .45 ACP with Range Brass & 230 gn Range Lead cast RN boolits.
    Meets MY High Standards in 1928 Thompson SMG blasting &
    precision DCM 1911 Colt .45 ACP bullseye shootin'.

  13. #33
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    mehavey sent me 8 bullets cast of Rotmetals pure lead.

    Two of them he had tested using two different methods and came up with 4.5 and 4.8 BHN. I tested those two bullets using the Lee tool mounted in a telescope stand. They both measured 4.7 BHN with the extended scale previously posted in this thread. They both measured 5 BHN with another extended scale developed some years back and posted on this forum. That's the extended scale for the Lee tool I've been using.

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    Of the other 6 bullets he sent 2 measured 4.7 BHN and 4 measured 5 BHN [5 and 6 BHN on my other scale.

    Appears the "certified pure lead" Bill Ferguson sent me some years back isn't quite so "pure"

    So that brings me back to my original question in this thread: If we are measuring the BHN at 5 +/- for pure lead then why does NSIS say the BHN is 7?
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 01-28-2023 at 10:20 AM.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  14. #34
    Boolit Master mehavey's Avatar
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    I went looking for the NIST references that had Pb's Brinell measurements listed as "7"
    and duly found them in several articles on hardness measurement techniques ...
    1930, and 1936. . . Everything else and/or more recent/other official sources showed "5"

    Then I ran across the Nat'l Inst of Health Pub: "Brinell hardness (high purity Pb): 4.0"
    https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Lead
    Drill down ref: O'Neil, M.J. (ed.). The Merck Index - An Encyclopedia of Chemicals, Drugs, and Biologicals. Cambridge, UK: Royal Society of Chemistry, 2013., p. 1004


    "Interesting"

  15. #35
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    I've always gone with the 5 BHN so that's probably close enough. Was just confused by the NSIS BHN and getting that same measurement with the sample of supposed pure lead I was sent.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  16. #36
    Boolit Master mehavey's Avatar
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    Just for grins... since I already kinda knew the answer from long long ago in a casting far far away (5 years?)
    I ran Rotometals 30:1 for a SAECO#446 44-40 bullet I had sitting on the shelf.

    No surprises --tin-only alloys are very very soft irrespective of Internet lore -- except that the 5-year old casting hardened up by about 4 tenths of a Brinell#
    (Well... my better dimple measurement ability did. )


    BRINELL# = 6.0


    (Nifty little gadget. Note that it lets you "soft match" the real dimensions, even with slightly irregular objects.)
    Last edited by mehavey; 01-30-2023 at 01:55 AM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check