.45 acp super soft bhn experiment

[Krh1326]

Hi all…
I tried to search this, and found some snippets and info, but just figured I’d flat out ask.

I would like to cast , load and shoot the softest .45 acp boolit possible, without leading barrel, nor deformation, while chambering. I have been running about 7.5 bhn, with great results.
I’m using a “hollowpoint molds” custom Lee 230 gr HP TC . I expect to stay in normal FPS of around 830 .

I can powder coat and add PB GC. I know these steps allow for somewhat softer boolits.
Can anyone save me some trial and error, and share any bhn data?

[megasupermagnum]

Neither gas checks or powder coat will help you, but it doesn't have to. A pure lead plain based bullet could perform fine in 45 acp. The issue you will run into is the deformation of the nose sometimes. Based on what I see, the nose on that bullet should be reasonably stout, and truncated cone bullets tend to do better as well. Another problem you can run into is your brass sizing down your bullets. If this were a revolver you could use an expander as needed. In a semi auto you don't want to go too light on neck tension. A crimp only helps so much to prevent setback, which you don't want at all. You are already really close to pure lead as it is, you are in the ballpark of 30:1 alloy. If you aren't seeing the expansion you want with 30:1, I suggest a larger/deeper hollow point pin.

[Krh1326]

Thank you sir. It’s not so much that I’m not happy with the expansion, it’s more of the question, how much more can I get? Unfortunately, there are no ranges near me, that allow any targets, other than standard paper targets… so the only time I get to play with wet newspapers, is when I venture upstate.

[Froogal]

I have loaded some .45 acp using the same bullets that I use for .45 Colt. .452, 200 grain, LRNFP. I cast those bullets with 1-20 lead from Roto-metals. These test to about a 10bhn. I have actually shot only a few through my 1911A1, but inspection of the bore after revealed NO leading. Accuracy was acceptable. A few misses, but that is me.

[HWooldridge]

Velocity-wise, I bet you could use pure lead with a decent lube - 45 ACP is close to many of the old BP loads so it should work just fine. I have shot very soft bullets in mine but don't think I ever used 100% lead - although I do have some 40/1 ingots that I might try.

[gwpercle]

You will have an easier time working up a soft-alloy boolit without the hollow point .
The soft nose - hollow point likes to deform .
Try small HP ... large ones will get battered as bhn goes down .
I use 8.5 bhn and Truncated Cone boolit ... w/o HP it will still mushroom nicely .
Soft boolits , 45 acp and hollow points are a fine line to walk .
I went no HP and got satisfactory results ... try it and see what happens .
Good Luck ,
Gary

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Do you have an idea what the pressure of your load is?

Besides a bunch of other real good lead and lead alloy info in this link...there is the quote below, from a chart.
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

Approximate "Maximum" Chamber Pressure For Lead Alloys (PSI)

Plumbers lead, stick on WW 13,000

[Krh1326]

I thank you all, for the great input.

[Froogal]

For what it's worth, the 10bhn bullets that I shoot, when hitting a STEEL target, just kind of flatten out into a round disc and fall to the ground right below the target. I then collect those discs, melt 'em down, and turn 'em back into bullets.

[Larry Gibson]

Do you have an idea what the pressure of your load is?

Besides a bunch of other real good lead and lead alloy info in this link...there is the quote below, from a chart.
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

I often wonder where the BHN for lead of 5.0 comes from as listed in that site along with Lyman's CBHs and other sources. According to the bureau of weights and measures standards the BHN of pure lead is 7.0. I have BHN tested numerous samples of certified pure lead and always have come up with 7.0. Wonder where the "5 BHN" comes from?

Also, I shoot Lee 230 TC bullets cast of 40-1 alloy, sized at .451 and lubed with 50/50, which weight 235 gr at 825 fps which run 17 - 18,000 psi [measured via Oehler M43 using a Contender barrel] with no leading or other problems.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Larry,
I must admit, I haven't given much thought to the BHN of pure Lead (or near pure soft Lead). I've just accepted the 5 number as fact. I am only responding, because I have planned for later this Winter or Spring, a experiment per say, with two different common lead alloys and pure Lead...cast in 40 cal, for a simple and fun BHN vs Accuracy comparison (40S&W pistol). I may have to do some extensive hardness testing (Lee hardness tester) of some of my near pure soft alloys (I have numerous batches from different sources) and some known Pure Lead that I have (two batches from two sources).

Thinking out loud here, I would bet technique (with the Lee hardness tester) when measuring pure Lead or Near pure, would be important, and possibly easily corruptible with carelessness, due to the softness...especially when dimpling Boolits or RBs.

Long ago, I bought some SOWW alloy ingots from "TheCaptain." When they arrived, I tested those ingots with my Lee tester and get the reading of 6.3 ...Hopefully my technique back then, using the Lee tester/microscope was trustworthy. When I do this 40 cal experiment in a few months, I will be extra careful.


I assume you've seen the "extended" BHN Lee chart that someone came up with...They go down to 4 BHN.
http://www.texas-mac.com/sitebuilder...r3-728x491.jpg

[243winxb]

I test many things, I read on here. Doing your own testing is the only way to know what works.

Soft lead caused bullet nose to hang up on feed ramp. BHN unknown. Never tested BHN, except thumb nail test.

Colt Series 70 GC 45acp that runs 100% till I fed it soft. Lyman 200 gr BB bullets.

Pure may produce, as cast bullet, smaller in diameter then needed. No antimony = smaller diameters.

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, I have had a copy of the Lee extended table for some time. All my tests with the Lee Tester on certified lead come up with 6.8 to .7.2 BHN. I always do a minimum of 3 tests per sample and average. I find with the Lee scope mounted in a microscope it is easy to get very accurate readings. I think the slight variation in the indent as measured with the Lee scope is more likely caused slight inconsistencies that occur when the indent is made. Over the years of testing numerous alloys for casting bullets I've come think figuring less than a .5 BHN is immaterial.

Here's the BHN for alloys/metals from NSIS;

[justindad]

If you are shooting light loads with the soft lead, a lighter recoil spring can help with setback. I have a heavy recoil spring and shoot hotter loads, and now my old plated ammo has setback issues.
*
The lighter spring will also help keep nose deformation at bay.
*
Of course, the light spring goes with light loads.

[Krh1326]

Larry- you have helped me with so much , on this forum… if I can answer a question for you, it would be my pleasure.

My base source of “ Pure” lead , is water main pipe, and X-ray room soft sheeting. I collected much of the sheeting, as a union tradesman, and my son works for a construction company that does mains, hydrants and road repairs… he is always bringing me home chunks of broken mains.

The X-ray sheeting, is about the softest metal that I’ve ever seen. I just cut it in strips to fit in pot, with tin snips. With Lee tester, that stuff comes in consistently 4.5 bhn. It is so supple, it’s amazing. If you hold a strip up, from the bottom, it will slowly tip over and bend… very very slowly, over your hand, holding it up.

The lead water main piping comes out to 5 bhn, very consistently. I do not include the solder jointing materials, when I melt it up.

I honestly believe the reason, that these test so super soft, is because they are both industrial used and certified and rated. Meaning.. they are/ were made from very high QC , and prolly virgin materials. Nothing ever introduced to any of it… ever.

Maybe sometimes you get some “pure” lead from a source that doesn’t really know what could have been added to it… especially if it’s been used, recycled, reclaimed… who knows?

[Bigslug]

At 7-8 BHN, you're already running pretty dang soft alloy. I did a pretty nerdy test on alloy made exclusively from smelted down jacketed bullet cores and it came out at 9.5BHN. Keep in mind that's soft enough to swage into jackets, and also make JHP's out of.

Depending on what you're trying to do, there may be a legit argument to harden up your metal slightly and go for a little LESS expansion. .45 bullets that turn into parachutes tend not to penetrate very well, which is fine for bunny and coyote control, but for larger game or social purposes, it may be a liability.

I'd also be concerned with how a soft bullet survives the trip up the feed ramp. It's worth manually ejecting a few after chambering them to see how they take the hits. Assuming you're running a 1911, I found the least disruption to the nose of a not-well-suited-to-autos design when I used magazines with the military-style tapered feed lips since they're more akin to a Mauser's controlled-feed system and allow the nose to pivot upward more readily than parallel-lip designs.

[BJung]

I'm about where you are: still experimenting with bullet alloy bhn based on pencil tests and lead source. I have few places I can shoot hp bullets to test for expansion. The closest I know of is BLM land 5 hours away. Here is the data I've collected and the lead I'm working with.

pellet lead is 95% to 100% lead. I could have a bhn = 6 or the Crossmans have a bhn = 9. I haven't tested my pellet lead ingots for bhn yet. I plan to cast hp bullets soon.
.22lr lead has around 1-1/2% antinomy. Some say it is 6-8bhn. Another says it is 7-7.5 bhn. I haven't tested my .22lr lead ingots for bhn yet.
.22lr lead makes a good hunting bullet when quenched. I have casted Mihec hp bullets to be tested
.22lr + 2% Sn -= 14-16 bhn. I plan to cast Mihec hp bullets with this soon.
I have plans to pull .22lr dudes and test the bhn of each brand to list, out of curiosity, even though I just melt all my .22lr range scrap together.

jacketed bullet scrap. Most jacketed bullets have 2-3% antinomy with maybe 1% tin. They test at 8-9.5bhn. I plan to cut some JHP range scrap bullets and test them for BHN

For low velocity hp loads below 1000 fps, 25:1 alloy at 9bhn is good. 6lb pure lead and 1-1/2lb 50/50 solder. bhn is not what is important, alloy composition is.

Here's some other references from my library:

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chap...gHPBullets.htm
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf


Here is a link of someone on this forum that did tests on his range scrap: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...ed+range+scrap

I separate my range scrap and plan to use the JHP cores for my .38-148 WC and .45-200 SWC bullets. Scrap that looks like it was a core and separated from the jacket is used for my 45-230 RN. I save hardcast bullets and add them to large pieces for my 9mm and 40 S&W bullets. Then there's the flakes. I make fishing weights with those.

[Kosh75287]

Another thing you could try is using cast 250 gr. LSWC or RNFP, and keep your velocity low. A 250 gr. bullet at ~700 f/s closely resembles the performance of the .455 Webley, which had a well-deserved reputation as a fight-stopper.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Yes, I have had a copy of the Lee extended table for some time. All my tests with the Lee Tester on certified lead come up with 6.8 to .7.2 BHN. I always do a minimum of 3 tests per sample and average. I find with the Lee scope mounted in a microscope it is easy to get very accurate readings. I think the slight variation in the indent as measured with the Lee scope is more likely caused slight inconsistencies that occur when the indent is made. Over the years of testing numerous alloys for casting bullets I've come think figuring less than a .5 BHN is immaterial.

Here's the BHN for alloys/metals from NSIS;

Thanks for that chart info.

I also do the three sample test (from same casting session), If I get one reading that's "out there", I usually do another three sample test.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP>>>

The lead water main piping comes out to 5 bhn, very consistently. I do not include the solder jointing materials, when I melt it up.

I've been told that 'some' Lead water main pipe has a small percentage of antimony, depends on manufacturer and their extrusion technique. This is due to the alloy with 1% to 3% antimony flowing more uniform and making a better quality extrusion.

I mention that, if you get some pipe that could have been from different manufacturers, they could be different. I've also heard that a extruded lead pipe sample that hasn't been melted won't measure correctly, until it's been melted and "cast" into a mold.

Years ago, I bought 100+ lbs of lead water pipe from a metals recycler/scrapper. I melted them into ingots. I never did measure hardness, as it seemed very soft. If I find that batch this Spring when I do my 40 cal experiment, I'll have to measure the ingots, as well as some samples that have been fresh cast in a boolit mold.