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Thread: Are these valid rifles?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Are these valid rifles?

    Hello ya'll. Doing my usual stumbling around the internet today and found these two rifles up for sale. One is Sitting Bull's 1866 and other says to be Custer's rifle. Looking at the price at this point in the auction, what are the odds these actually belonged to Sitting Bull and Custer? (darn, those are long links, sorry about that)
    https://www.icollector.com/General-G...m_medium=email

    https://www.icollector.com/Sitting-B...m_medium=email

  2. #2
    Boolit Master hoodat's Avatar
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    WOW!! I've got one of Sitting Bull's OTHER rifles..!! I wonder how many there are??!! jd
    It seems that people who do almost nothing, often complain loudly when it's time to do it.

  3. #3
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    Winger Ed.'s Avatar
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    Could be.
    But I don't know you could verify a gun from back then as to who carried it, or how it came into someone's possession a few years later.

    The Little Big Horn battle field wasn't really secured by the national parks service until the 50-60s or something.
    You could still find small artifacts there, but most of the weapons and big things were gone shortly after the battle.

    Horse bones, shell cases, buttons, etc. could still be found.
    But something like a pistol or battle ax, nah--- those would have been gone in a day or two, and untraceable.
    If there wasn't Army records of that rifle being issued to Gen. Custer by serial number--
    there's no way to really prove he had that exact one there.

    If those weapons aren't in sad condition, I'd be doubly suspect.
    It's hard to keep one nice looking now, but back then in the wilderness-- it'd be almost impossible.
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  4. #4
    Boolit Master Handloader109's Avatar
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    BS on them. Custers gun maybe, but the current price shows not many believe either story....

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  5. #5
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    Probably just the same make and model. It will be interesting to see how much they sell for.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master Baltimoreed's Avatar
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    Unprovable without documentation and no possible way to document. No way would I invest a dime. There’s no sn evidence of either of the guns used by Alvin York afaik and that is relatively recent history.

  7. #7
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    Darn, i have Custers rifle made into a lamp right here!

    Sitting Bulls rifle is a 1876 in 45/75 WCF. Last time it changed hands it went for $60,000 so id have to cast doubt on these
    Last edited by jonp; 01-18-2023 at 08:31 PM.
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  8. #8
    Boolit Master WRideout's Avatar
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    I suspect that the general was armed with a revolver, and a saber.

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baltimoreed View Post
    Unprovable without documentation and no possible way to document. No way would I invest a dime. There’s no sn evidence of either of the guns used by Alvin York afaik and that is relatively recent history.
    He even said himself he had a few rifles. If something happened to one,
    or it jammed from mud, he'd drop it and pick up another one from somebody that 'didn't need theirs any more'.
    If one was really valuable, it'd be traceable by serial number, and the last one he carried.
    Back then, they just weren't as careful with serial numbers, and they weren't as important to them as we are now.

    On the battle field at the time,
    there was no reason to enshrine his well used and beat up rifle. He was just another trooper doing his job.

    Most of them didn't give a flip about historical importance.
    When you're busy making history--- ya don't really think about it while it's happening.
    They just didn't want to get killed, and be able to go home as soon as they could.
    Last edited by Winger Ed.; 01-18-2023 at 11:22 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Many years ago, I was in Las Vegas and attended a Historical Arms show there. I was able to handle a Holland & Holland Maharaja grade double rifle and a host of other absolutely breathtaking firearms. I distinctly remember seeing what looked like a pile of wood and rust that barely resembled a firearm. The selling price was well in excess of $10,000.00 and it was touted as being a verified trapdoor from the battle of the Little Bighorn!

    I cannot see either of those rifles (with providence of the actual owners) being sold for such a paltry price.
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    Boolit Master hoodat's Avatar
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    I've got Jesse James pocket pistol I could cut loose of for the right price. jd
    It seems that people who do almost nothing, often complain loudly when it's time to do it.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by WRideout View Post
    I suspect that the general was armed with a revolver, and a saber.
    Probably so.
    The saber might have been recovered, and it'd be pretty easy to identify and authenticate.
    If his pistol was just Army issue and not some presentation piece-- it's gone.

    After the battle, the bodies were stripped of everything. Clothes, boots, everything.
    All the Indians in the region that didn't make it to Canada were later hunted down and killed out right,
    or rounded up and starved to death the next Winter.
    They didn't have a written language, there would be no documentation of who was what weapon's previous owner.
    If a rifle didn't have "US" or "USA" branded on the stock, you couldn't even know if it Army issue.
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  13. #13
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    https://www.remingtonsociety.org/for...ic.php?t=26347

    Most information I've seen indicated Custer had a Rolling Block Sporting Rifle, not a military. But it's also well known that his widow did a pretty good job supporting herself after his death selling all sorts of firearms and memorabilia with "letters of authenticity" stating they were owned by her late husband.
    Without extremely good provenance it's best to be very skeptical of anything attributed to being owned by Custer. He's likely the most famous name to own more than he ever had.

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  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    I have a wonderful book "Exploring with Custer,the 1874 Black Hills Expedition", by Earnest Grafe and Paul Horsted. On page xii is a famous photo of Custer,Pvt.John Burkman, and scouts Bloody Knife, Goose, and Little Sioux. The rolling block pictured appears to have the "rough and ready" type rear folding sight mounted right up against the reciever. The auction rifle looks to have a different style sight mounted more forward.

    Page 255 has the photo of Custer and his grizzly bear, but I can't see the sight in that photo. I wonder if these are Wendell Grangard's collection? He published a book on the guns used in the battle.

  15. #15
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    I would think old Georges rifle went home with someone else that day.
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    Boolit Master FISH4BUGS's Avatar
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    You must be kidding us, right?
    For someone to claim that without backing it up with foolproof provenance, makes me want to turn him in for attempted fraud.
    Reminds me of Elizabeth Warren...."....my mother always told us we were Native Americans".....
    Buy the gun....not the story.
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    There used to be a gun shop locally who sold dozens of guns that belonged to Billy the Kid and Jesse James, along with other notable characters.

    Hey, that's what the sign said!

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  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy eastbank's Avatar
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    jessie james,s mother sold old junk revolvers she bought for 2-3 bucks and sold them for 25.00 to people who came to view his grave.

  19. #19
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    Winger Ed.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waksupi View Post
    There used to be a gun shop locally who sold dozens of guns that belonged to Billy the Kid and Jesse James, along with other notable characters.
    I met a guy several years back that gathered WWI & WWII rifles and bayonets. When he'd accumulated several,
    he'd get a gun show table and sell them.
    They all had a great historical story of where and what battle they came from them that 'enhanced' their value.
    Last edited by Winger Ed.; 01-19-2023 at 02:33 PM.
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    OK People. Enough of this idle chit-chat.
    This ain't your Grandma's sewing circle.
    EVERYONE!
    Back to your oars. The Captain wants to waterski.

  20. #20
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    I have General Washington's personal winchester model 70. It's in .30-06 of course. Pictures of him carrying it are available on request.

    Please don't smudge the ink on my provenance documents.
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