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Thread: A Shotgun is my recommended "only" homestead gun.

  1. #41
    Boolit Master

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    but everybody underatands Shotgun. It is indeed the universal language. Great line, I'm going to file thjs away for future use

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Helmer View Post
    As a retired federal lawman, I learned greater respect for the shotgun. For 10 years I instructed and qualified 100+/- agents twice a year on handguns and the shotgun. In my later years before retirement, my agency added the H&K, MP-5 9mm submachine gun to our arms inventory. All the new agents salivated over the MP-5. On the range at 25 yards, I showed them how a 12 gauge stoked with 5 rounds of #4 Buckshot exceeded a 30-round mag of 9mm on our B-27 target.

    Now retired to my rural farm, I am often asked by new residents from urban areas, about a recommended farm gun? Since most of these folks never fired any gun before, I offer handgun and shotgun instruction and lean to a shotgun for their first gun. Most folks opt for a pump 20 gauge, with the 12 gauge coming in second.

    The anti-gun folks lack gun savvy! That is a Very Good Thing! If they had any clue, they would ban shotguns FAR ahead of any "nasty", "ugly" assault weapon! CLUELESS is sometimes good. LOL.

    For NEW country residents, lacking any firearms skills, the shotgun is the best option for their first gun living in the country for 2 or 4 legged critters on their homestead.

    Adam
    Adam Helmer -- I cannot agree with you more re your recommendations, but --with no disrespect -- wish to add a thought/practice I advised for years. In my tenure as a Hunter Safety instructor in pretty much every class I was -- almost always by a parent asked a similar question vis a "recommended 'gun'". My thoughts came up with, "A brand new aerosol can of Black Flag Wasp & Hornet Spray!"
    Too often I've read of family member's (typically a son) who was shot "breaking into" the house after he forgot/lost keys and similar. Also, in today's most litigant times, too often where the homeowner who -- in my opinion -- should have been given an award -- was instead smacked with zillions of dollars' "penalties" ranging from lawyer and court fees to even paying for the perp's injuries (assuming (s)he wasn't killed). At the very least, it seems to be a "given" that the homeowner simply protecting his/her property LOSES their firearm(s), adding insult to injury!!!
    I am a believer, too, of a scattergun (I have a 20ga) and an M1 Carbine as great home defense weapons. BUT, if a stream of wasp spray -- a new can will send a concentrated stream seven or eight meters' distance with remarkable accuracy -- is employed first -- I cannot of any perp having this directed at his or her eyes who would not have a change in their plans...
    NOT anything (thank you!) tried and trued. You, sir, have the experience; I just have the thoughts .
    Which I've chosen to share...
    geo

  3. #43
    Boolit Master
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    george,
    Sir, your point is well-taken and I often advise "shaky" novices to forget a gun and get a can of fly spray or oven cleaner. I discuss the awesome legal liability a too quick shooting can involve.

    I recall my first or second home firearms class, circa 1976, at my NH gun club. It began at 0800 with an hour classroom safety gun check-in and orientation. Then range time on our 6 outdoor benches with an instructor per bench. We shot at B27 targets at 7 yards. We ended up at about 11:00 with a cop from the town department explaining the laws of self defense. The officer straightened out many myths. He also discussed non-lethal alternatives.

    Be well.

    Adam

  4. #44
    Boolit Master
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    If you want to do the spray route, just buy some bear repellent or normal pepper spray and keep a few cans in strategic locations around your home. The trouble with wasp spray goes back to the problem of too many lawyers...if the bad guy is permanently disabled or dies, the attorneys will be wanting to know WHY WOULD YOU CHOOSE TO USE WASP SPRAY on that poor little guy who tried to break in your home because he was tired and hungry and drunk...shame on you.

  5. #45
    Boolit Master
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    HWooldridge,

    I see your point, BUT how will you tell a defense attorney, and a jury, suing you that you thought his client's assailant was a bear and deserved bear spray? A bear is 400 to 1,200 pounds and needs a STRONG spray. What does the "victim" weigh? Good Luck with your testimony!

    Everyone has an occasional wasp in their house, while very few have a bear in their home. Case CLOSED!

    Be well.

    Adam

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Helmer View Post
    HWooldridge,

    I see your point, BUT how will you tell a defense attorney, and a jury, suing you that you thought his client's assailant was a bear and deserved bear spray? A bear is 400 to 1,200 pounds and needs a STRONG spray. What does the "victim" weigh? Good Luck with your testimony!

    Everyone has an occasional wasp in their house, while very few have a bear in their home. Case CLOSED!

    Be well.

    Adam
    My wife thinks I'm a "bear" and has called me by that name for 44 years...

    Personally, I'd probably just buy regular pepper spray for humanoids if I was worried about it - which I'm not...

  7. #47
    Boolit Master
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    Pepper spray is fairly effective and causes no permanent damage. Doesn't have a lot of range though.

  8. #48
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Helmer View Post
    HWooldridge,

    I see your point, BUT how will you tell a defense attorney, and a jury, suing you that you thought his client's assailant was a bear and deserved bear spray? A bear is 400 to 1,200 pounds and needs a STRONG spray. What does the "victim" weigh? Good Luck with your testimony!

    Everyone has an occasional wasp in their house, while very few have a bear in their home. Case CLOSED!

    Be well.

    Adam
    FYI, bear spray is a standard item for police riot control. Bear spray is not really more powerful pepper or concentration, it's just that it sprays out a huge fog rather than normal pepper spray which just shoots a single stream. Small pepper spray does not have the volume to spray like bear spray does since it is meant to be carried. Bear spray is not dangerous to people, at least not more dangerous than pepper spray to the eyes.

    Wasp spray or any other poison on the other hand can very likely cause lifelong disability, and that's on top of the fact they aren't all that irritating to the eyes or breathing.
    Last edited by megasupermagnum; 01-20-2023 at 01:58 AM.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    FYI, bear spray is a standard item for police riot control. Bear spray is not really more powerful pepper or concentration, it's just that it sprays out a huge fog rather than normal pepper spray which just shoots a single stream. Small pepper spray does not have the volume to spray like bear spray does since it is meant to be carried. Bear spray is not dangerous to people, at least not more dangerous than pepper spray to the eyes.

    Wasp spray or any other poison on the other hand can very likely cause lifelong disability, and that's on top of the fact they aren't all that irritating to the eyes or breathing.
    mega,

    You may be right, or wrong? At my old agency, I never saw anything to indicate our pepper spray was also bear spray. Regardless, a jury would probably be "swayed" by a cleaver defense attorney who made a BIG issue of using a HUGE Wild Animal spray on a human! Have you litigated any successful civil cases were a jury approved of the use of bear spray? What is the footnote we can read? Do you have case law showing the negative use of wasp spray for victims of home invasions?
    Be well.
    Adam
    Last edited by Adam Helmer; 01-20-2023 at 12:22 PM.

  10. #50
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Helmer View Post
    mega,

    You may be right, or wrong? At my old agency, I never saw anything to indicate our pepper spray was also bear spray. Regardless, a jury would probably be "swayed" by a cleaver defense attorney who made a BIG issue of using a HUGE Wild Animal spray on a human! Have you litigated any successful civil cases were a jury approved of the use of bear spray? What is the footnote we can read? Do you have case law showing the negative use of wasp spray for victims of home invasions?
    Be well.
    Adam
    This is what I found from a 30 second search.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uy9MnQfk_0

  11. #51
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    This is what I found from a 30 second search.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uy9MnQfk_0
    mega,
    Thanks for the post. I did not open it because it asked for my personal information. If there is case law in the post, please provide the cite and I will Google the case.
    Adam

  12. #52
    Boolit Master pmer's Avatar
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    Last simmer when we went to Glacier park, at the hotel we strolled by a class about bear spray and sat in for what was left. The instructor said while it would work for self defense it's more industrial in strength but the trouble is that it will fog the room. So it will end up in your eyes as well which would harm your ability to render aid or continue fighting.
    Oh great, another thread that makes me spend money.

  13. #53
    Boolit Buddy schutzen-jager's Avatar
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    jmho - never have homesteaded, spent lots of time on rural 500 acre farm in my younger days - except for very rare [ as in never ] defensive purposes a .22 is more suited to homesteader needs - just really not very practical putting down a hog or beef cow with any type of shotgun load -
    never pick a fight with an old man - if he is too old to fight he will just kill you -
    in this current crisis our government is not the solution , it is the problem ! -

    ILLEGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM

    as they say in latin

  14. #54
    Boolit Bub
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    The point about mistaking a family member or other friendly for a assailant is well taken. I think the solution is a defense in depth, with non-lethal deterrents like loud alarms on doors and windows being the first line, then automatically tripped lights, followed if possible by a loudly barking dog, then a clear line of retreat away from the threat. The hullabaloo and movement will help wake up the defenders and reduce the possibility of a bad shoot. Having trained with bear spray, I don’t recommend unleashing it indoors. I don’t much care for it outdoors as even a slight breeze can push a thin cloud back to the user.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chena View Post
    The point about mistaking a family member or other friendly for a assailant is well taken. I think the solution is a defense in depth, with non-lethal deterrents like loud alarms on doors and windows being the first line, then automatically tripped lights, followed if possible by a loudly barking dog, then a clear line of retreat away from the threat. The hullabaloo and movement will help wake up the defenders and reduce the possibility of a bad shoot. Having trained with bear spray, I donít recommend unleashing it indoors. I donít much care for it outdoors as even a slight breeze can push a thin cloud back to the user.


    I have two Belgian Malinois dogs. If they are brave enough to enter my home with the dogs trying to attack through the glass, it will take nothing less than lethal force to stop them. I'm not messing with sprays.

  16. #56
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    Per my LE friends the failure rate to stop of pepper spray is fairly high. I read one University study claiming a 30% failure rate failure to stop. We are talking about a situation that allows for the use of deadly forces. Pepper spray is not something I want my life or the lives of my loved ones to depend on.

    As to shooting someone mistakenly that is 100% neglect on the person using the force. Even in a couple of states that allow for very liberal use of deadly force I am not going to use deadly force until I identify a real threat in the form of a deadly weapon. Shooting at a dark form in the corner is the same as slob hunters "sound" shooting. I've had drunks break into my residence. Could I have legally shot them? Probability, but they were so drunk they thought they were at their home. Coupled with the fact they barely could stand they posed little threat other than puking on the floor. If they had a knife, gun or club they would have achieved room temperature. The point is their presence without a weapon was not enough for me to use deadly force.

    I have never shot at a human and I hope it stays that way but if I do it will basically be the same as hunting. A viable target is selected followed by selection of the shot placement. Without an actual real threat it's not a viable target. I have a hard time understanding how someone is shot by mistake unless there is neglect on the part of the shooter to identify the target and threat level????
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 01-24-2023 at 04:53 AM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

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  17. #57
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    OK guys if any of you have read any of my Posts here on Shotguns? Specifically the "What I did to my Shotguns." Thread https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...to-my-Shotguns

    You would have gathered that I am a big proponent of Shotguns for Defense and even Offense at ranges less that 150 yards.. I showed what I did to my 3 Mossberg 500's as far as mods to make them a little more palatable to shoot.

    But what if you really knew how to run the thing? The "Gun Handling" portion of using a Shotgun is more important and there is a lot more to it than running a Rifle or Pistol. The offset is that you are also fielding a much more powerful weapon. I look at a Tactical 12 ga. Shotgun as a .73 Caliber Rifle, and with certain Modifications even with 00 Buckshot it is not that much different than a rifle. 2 of my M500's pattern 00 into 7" at 25 yards, which is a far cry from 15" at 15 yards with a common Cylinder Bore gun.

    Also there is the Solid Projectile be it a Ball or Slug now you are into the realm of the Brown Bess Musket which was the Standard Small Arm of the British Army from 1720 to 1830. Pretty obvious that getting hit with a 600 gr .75 caliber ball was effective enough to be relied on for 110 years, and the main difference between that gun and a modern Shotgun shooting Slugs is,,, No Smoke, No Smell, and a Repeater with 5-9 rounds available.

    I have been a Rifleman for all of my life, but when I finally started going to shotgun classes at Front Sight I began to realize that the power I could wield in a Combat Situation was so far above any of my rifles that it warranted lots more attention. I have been to 7ea. 2 and 4 day Tactical Shotgun Classes at Front Sight and will be going to #8 as soon as it warms up a bit next month.

    What I have learned in those classes is how to operate a Shotgun at a level far above anything I can do with a rifle. Most of that revolves around Ammunition Handling. I have 1 M500 that is 7+1 and 2 that are 5+1 so keeping them fed is a key issue. I can fire 6 rounds in about 4 seconds which means I've got to reload that gun fast. This is covered by Single Loading AKA "Port Loading" and as of last week mastering a Technique Lena Miculek showed me for loading 4 shells quickly. Not Quad Loading but the method that preceded that technique. I am working on that one every day as there is a learning curve.

    Any way just getting a Shotgun for Home Defense is not going to keep you safe. You actually need to learn how to use it. And that is where training classes come in. You will need to go to a few and actually burn some ammo to build enough confidence so that if you actually need to fight,,, It won't be an "On the Job Training Experience!"

    Lots of useful info in the What I did to my Shotguns Thread, you should look at it.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 01-29-2023 at 06:52 PM.
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  18. #58
    Boolit Master
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  19. #59
    Boolit Master


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    Rick R
    To funny, but we have a Great Dane that will chase red or green lasers. You got to be careful where you point the thing.

    I like shotguns for inside the house, just wish I could mount a bayonet on my VR80!

  20. #60
    Boolit Buddy arclight's Avatar
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    The Remington 870 Youth in 20GA is a really underrated weapon. It's not just a 12GA with a different barrel. The whole thing is scaled down, and it's very easy to handle for probably everyone in a household.

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