38 Spl “Super Police” 200 gr

[Beerd]

all I know is that a 200 gr bullet makes a satisfying CLANG when it hits a gong compared to the dink of a 105 grainer.
..

[Kosh75287]

I never bought into the theory (that) the "anemic" .38/200 load was "just as effective" as the old .455 Webley 250 grain load."

Actually, it was a 265 gr. projectile, usually, in the .455. If memory serves, the .38/200 load derived part of its fight-stopping efficacy from the projectile, that was shaped to be "tail heavy", and prone to yaw/tumble on contact with the adversary. I'M not certain that I "buy into" THAT theory, but I do not find it implausible. At 620 f/s from the muzzle, the longish 200 gr. projectile is likely only semi-stable. The right geometry on it might very well make it happen.

[HWooldridge]

Actually, it was a 265 gr. projectile, usually. If memory serves, the .38/200 load derived part of its fight-stopping efficacy from the projectile, shaped to be "tail heavy", and prone to yaw/tumble on contact with the adversary. I'M not certain that I "buy into" THAT theory, but I do not find it implausible. At 620 f/s from the muzzle, the longish 200 gr. projectile is likely only semi-stable. The right geometry on it might very well make it happen.

It would probably go “Thwack!” when it hits…

[smkummer]

Yep. I still have some Lyman 358430 190 gr. loaded with a max. charge 2400 listed in the Lyman 45th edition. Stated velocity of about 875 fps out of a 6” revolver. The “clang” it makes on steel is well noted. Also my Marlin 1894 357 loves that load too! Very accurate and it’s a micro groove as well.

[rintinglen]

The British were very satisfied with the 200 gr lead bullet in their Enfield revolvers based on their performance in actual combat…

This malarkey keeps floating around, but it is not fact. In truth, it is more like the way the powers that be in the Armed forces of this country cling to the 5.56, despite numerous and repeated calls for a more powerful weapon/cartridge. The Field Marshals and Generals liked it because they could train men to use a lighter recoiling cartridge quicker and cheaper, but that certainly did not mean that it was better, or even adequate.

My ex-wife's uncle was a PIAT gunner in the Second World War in the Canadian Army. He had absolutely no use for a revolver after he shot a young German soldier in Holland and was handed the bullet by the medic who had plucked it from the wounded prisoners chest--WITH HIS FINGERS. The Late David Arnold recounted several instances of similar failures of the 38 revolver in South African police service. Dean Grennell published his experiences testing the ammunition of the day on a 70's era car. His verdict on the usefulness of the Super Police? "Halt or I'll scratch your paint." It was the repeated failure of round-nosed, lead bullets that lead to the demand for +p hollow point cartridges in the 60's and 70's. For defensive use, go there.

[schutzen-jager]

fact is they only had a very short life + were replaced by the much more capable +P and +P+ which are still available -

[barnetmill]

This malarkey keeps floating around, but it is not fact. In truth, it is more like the way the powers that be in the Armed forces of this country cling to the 5.56, despite numerous and repeated calls for a more powerful weapon/cartridge. The Field Marshals and Generals liked it because they could train men to use a lighter recoiling cartridge quicker and cheaper, but that certainly did not mean that it was better, or even adequate.

My ex-wife's uncle was a PIAT gunner in the Second World War in the Canadian Army. He had absolutely no use for a revolver after he shot a young German soldier in Holland and was handed the bullet by the medic who had plucked it from the wounded prisoners chest--WITH HIS FINGERS. The Late David Arnold recounted several instances of similar failures of the 38 revolver in South African police service. Dean Grennell published his experiences testing the ammunition of the day on a 70's era car. His verdict on the usefulness of the Super Police? "Halt or I'll scratch your paint." It was the repeated failure of round-nosed, lead bullets that lead to the demand for +p hollow point cartridges in the 60's and 70's. For defensive use, go there.

The bullet that was plucked out of the german POW's chest, what did it hit before going into his body. Besides a thick uniform and coat, I would guess that something else was struck prior to hitting skin. The low velocity bullet for the 38/200 load was very limited on penetration, but was normally enough to reach vital organs.
Teddy Roosevelt was famous for having taken a .38 bullet, I think from either a short or long colt to the chest with his prepared speech slowing some of its penetration

The 50-page text of his campaign speech folded over twice in Roosevelt's breast pocket and a metal glasses case slowed the bullet, saving his life. Schrank was immediately disarmed, captured and might have been lynched had Roosevelt not shouted for Schrank to remain unharmed

I have noticed for countries where winter clothing was prevalent often pistols of good penetration were sought out. The Bolsheviks early on loved the 30 mauser pistol cartridge and later on designed a pistol to use the very similar 7.62x25 tokarev in the T33 pistol. The Chinese were also quite fond of the 30 mauser pistol and in some places of china winter clothing was quite thick. But of course there were reasons due to sanctions as to why the mauser pistol was so popular in pre-communist china.
Choosing lighter recoiling rounds does have its positive points, especially for the 5.56 in fully automatic weapons. The russians choose the 5.45x39 for similar reasons.
The original luger was in a .30 caliber that gave good penetration that the Swiss liked. The 9x19 parabellum
has always well regarded for penetration also. The recoil of a browning hipower pistol in 9mm does not have severe recoil and is certainly more effective than was the 38/200 in all things except for having a more complicated manual of arms.

[OS OK]

Several years ago a friend over in Nevada sent me a single cavity mould (358430) Lyman, 200 grain RN & I experimented with it. Wasn't looking to load something really hot or +p, just wanted to see what it'd do.

200g 38S Jug Busters _ Super Police Load of yesteryear



This is the old cast round that LE used to carry back in their '.38S. wheel gun' days. They referred to it as a "Pelvis Breaker" and for good reason, it is a slow moving Freight Train on impact.
It is cast with wheel weight lead and is 11BHN and it is Powder Coated.

[15meter]

I've had good luck with a NOE 360-200-RN (PB) in the 38/200. Plus it makes a cool looking load. Loading a batch of these was on the list of things to do, this thread kicked it up to the top just for the grins of it, this evening loading:



This is used in an WWII era break-top.

Don't know if that mold is still available but it works for me.