Plain base gas checks, who here uses?

[Soundguy]

I've been using regular gas checks since I started casting / using gas check shank bullets. Never messed with plain base checks..but decided what the heck and ordered a small pack of a bunch of different sizes to play around with. Might be interesting to speed up some cast loads that I only have pb bullets for. Will have to do some load research and see what might be my first victim.

[hc18flyer]

I have used them in .45 Colt and .45-70 for some 'warmer' loads, and not have to get a gc mold. I usually end up getting the gc mold. I had trouble keeping some on, so I put a tiny dab of gel superglue on the check before sizing. I know it is extra work, but I only needed a few. My 2 cents, hc18flyer

[Soundguy]

I can't wait to try them.

[gloob]

I've got a couple pistol calibers I would like to try them in. I plan to make my own check maker, but maybe I could save a lot of time if I tried some, first! OP, did you find a variety pack for sale?

I'm not worried about the check falling off, because my problem guns are in straight wall pistol calibers. I was hoping if my bullets don't need sizing, I could just slip them on before seating the bullet. That doesn't work with beefy gas checks, because it kills the neck tension. Has anyone tried this with plain base checks?

[Soundguy]

I did not find a variety pack but the place I bought from sold packs as small as 100 or 250 or 500 Etc but when you're buying them in packs of $100 you're only paying $4 so I just bought a bunch of packs of 100 to try out a bunch of different calibers. I don't think your plan of not sizing them will work because these checks according to what I've read are actually punched oversized so that they will slip over the base of a bullet so you you may not find that that works for you but who knows maybe they're thin enough that it will perhaps you could glue them on with a drop of super glue and then seat them and they might work because once the cartridges been fired it's going to be pushed from the rear anyway if you try that let us know how it works.

[Seeker]

I use them for .45 colt and 45-70. I size, then tumble lube with 60/40, install the check by pushing through the Lee sizer base first and tumble lube one more time. They work great and I have never had one come off.

[Soundguy]

Nice!

[Krh1326]

I no longer shoot any cast boolits, with out checks. Now, being retired, I have the time to fiddle around, and do what I want.
I will not say that pb checks have improved my accuracy, as I am still a terrible shot, lmao…. But I will say that my groups have tightened up, and that’s a bonus.
I have also noticed that pretty much whatever bhn my lead is at, or what kind of charge I’m running, I have zero leading in 9mm, .38, .357m , .40 sw, .44m and .45 acp.

I would say my realized returns, are consistency and cleanup.

[gloob]

When I first started reloading, I was more into calculating in cost, time, and effort per cartridge. And I shot a much higher volume per outing. Didn't matter if it left fouling. I'd just scrub the bore out with copper/bronze wool and maybe even using a cordless drill. And for pistol, long range accuracy didn't matter much, either. Also didn't matter if the bullets were ugly or if all the lube ended up on the exposed part of the bullet, ready to pick up dirt or lint, because I was just going to shoot it soon enough.

I don't shoot like that anymore, pulling the happy switch until my nerves start to tweak. And I can't afford to spend that much time picking up brass and replacing worn out semiauto rifle barrels. I can make more ammo now than I can shoot, and if I'm going to store it away I want it to be as close to perfect as possible!

I like the combo of gas checks and hard tumble lube that goes in the groove and stays put.

[missionary5155]

No loose condition ! Have proven molds that can now get cast softer yet maintain the fps,,, Bigger exit holes.

[Larry Gibson]

I make my own 45 cal PB GCs. I've used them on several different 45 ACP, 45 Colt and 45-70 cast bullets. Sizing, particularly to "crimp' them into place, becomes critical as to the method and amount of sizing done in one step. The thickness of the GC along with hardness of the bullet are also critical factors.

[gloob]

I take it the thinner the better, for a PB check? Do you use multiple sizing dies on any of your PB checks?

Sage's says their PB checks are 8-12 thousandths thick lithograph plate. I was hoping my 9-10 thous aluminum flashing will work for PB checks on my 40/10mm bullets. Mostly because I have enough of this stuff to make 25k 223 checks, and I don't think I'm going to use that many.

I've found $20.00 of parts that will make a 40 cal gas check maker pretty easy to build. But right now I'm still slogging through it with what I have on hand, hoping to avoid that. $20.00 will buy a box of fancy cat food that'll make my cat way happier than anything a bullet can do for me.

[Larry Gibson]

The thickest I've found to work well on softer BHN bullets (in the 8 - 12 BHN range) is .006 made from the Coors lite "bottle" cans. I found on harder cast 45 ACP bullets (commercial hard cast with a BHN of 15 - 16) it is best to initially run them through a .454 sizer then the .452 sizer. Also, with as cast larger than .453 it is best to step size the GCs on. With softer 45-70 bullets cast of binary 20-1 or 16-1 alloys I presize the bullets at .4615 or .459 and seat the GC on in the same sizer in a second operation.

Any material [aluminum, brass, copper] over a .010 thickness is very difficult to cut in 45 cal tool. It is even a bit difficult to cut the discs when making 35 GCs with aluminum flashing of .014. For the 45 and 35 GCs my are Pat Marlins. I have not problems cutting them of .014 or .015 brass or aluminum in my other GC makers using an arbor press.

[gloob]

Interesting, thanks! Too bad I don't consume anything in an aluminum bottle, and I have no interest in paying money to drink Coors Lite!

In 40 cal specifically, I've found some people using regular soda can, and some using the lithograph plate checks up to at least 8 thous, just with a normal sizing die. I hope that an extra thousandth and a half of thickness won't make too big a difference. My bullets are probably 12 BHN at most, maybe less. The majority of my lead supply lately is from airgun pellets.

Yeah, I noticed that some of the gas check dies demonstrated on Youtube aren't adjusted (adjustable?) to the peak of the ram, and there's a lot of force/jerkiness involved, even for 30 cal checks. I wonder if this is part of the issue for your 45 die.

My only checks so far are the teeny 223, so that's only a 316ish disc; should be almost 60% more force for a 40 check at near 500 thous. But I adjust my die to the peak leverage of the press. It's pretty smooth and easy even on the 13 thous aluminum. I don't know where my 40 die will end up being bodged into the press, if I ever complete it, but I'm aiming for peak leverage.

The strip of flashing ends up actually touching the O frame of my press at the end of the follow through. Then I drop it down a bit to see and position the next punch and just hold the strip there while I work the lever. I suppose this is why some of the commercial makers have the super long punch positioned way lower. I think they're maybe doing it wrong, because it's super easy the way mine is setup.

[Larry Gibson]

My dies are adjusted to the peak leverage point on the press. Still a lot more difficult than using my 8mm and 30 dies and I'm sure a lot more difficult than cutting a 22 cal disc.

Strips cut from soda can are used by many, but I've not found them to be that effective unless doubled or tripled up. Then I had the problem of the outer ones coming off before even loading. Also, on regular GC bullet shanks any GC less than .010 or .012 don't crimp on tight enough and stick in the H&I sizing die. Of course, that's different with PB GCs.

Picture of you setup?

[gloob]

When you double up on soda can, that's for GC shank bullets, right? I think one soda check works for a PB bullet?

Thanks, again. Here are some pics of my homebrew 223 die. The button is reversible. I have one side for 13 thous, and one for 9 thous. See how short the punch is? And I still only screw the die in 4 turns.


As you can see I have to drop the ram a bit extra to see and position the strip. I could drop my die down a lot deeper so as not to have to move the ram as much. But then the leverage drops a lot. Now, I'm no weakling. So it's not a matter of strength. When the leverage drops, the ram/lever jumps into the follow through when the disc cuts, and it's not smooth. And my bench rattles and stuff fall off during the course of making lots of checks. And the sudden jerk adds up after doing a bunch, not feeling very nice to my nerves and joints.




Same ram position as above, approximating my POV when using it. I drop the ram to where I can just clearly see and move the strip.




So it punches the disc out at this position, just a fraction of an inch shy of TDC and maximum leverage.




This is TDC of my press, with the strip hitting the top of the press frame on the follow through to form the cup and advance it through the hollow punch. I lucked out, I didn't make the bottom part longer than this.



Now, I didn't give any of this more than a nickel's worth of thought while making it. I wasn't sure it would even work. But after using it a bit, this is how I adjusted it. Peak leverage makes a lot of difference when making a lifetime's worth of checks over a week of playing with your new die. It's a marathon, not a sprint!

[Larry Gibson]

"When you double up on soda can, that's for GC shank bullets, right? I think one soda check works for a PB bullet?"

Yes, to both questions there. Soda cans run .003 - .004 and even doubled and tripled up the didn't stay on the GC bullet shanks w/o gluing which I found to be a pain. I've found sometimes even a single .010 thick GC won't stay on most shanks. However. .012 -.015 thick ones do. One soda can thick check will stay on PB bullets though. They cut easy enough but I've found the .006 thick onse seem to be a bit more accurate. On bullets of 40-1 up through 16-1 alloy they swage on quite easily. I occasionally have one of the Coors but mostly a couple friends drink one or two during BS sessions solving the world's problems down in the man cave. I get 80+ of the 45 PB GCs out of one can so it doesn't take many of the can "bottles". I'm sure there are other thicker can materials than soda cans out there. The .006 GCs crimp on and work very well in my suppressed M98 45 ACP cutting down the lead deposits on the suppressor baffles. I use them mostly on 20-1 alloy Lee 452-230-TCs.

[gloob]

Thanks. I bought the 9 thous material because that's what I measured for my 223 Hornady checks. They fit just right on my bullets. I'm just hoping to get a two-fer out of it, using it for PB checks, too.

For all I know the 13 thousandths checks would also fit just right on my 223 bullets, too. They stay on fine, but they're too tight to place on by hand. If I use the same size plug as for 9 thous, they start to tear. I'd have to open up the ID on my punch, and there would be no going back.

Seems like there are several thickness standards for gas checks and bullet shanks, depending on the caliber. 9 thous for 223. 17 thous for 30 cal, IIRC. There's a list posted on the forum somewhere. I was more curious about the PB checks.

I didn't see any other gas shank caliber that would use 9 mil material, not that it matters. I don't shoot any other rifle caliber enough to worry about using up 1000 factory checks. And the only pistol bullet I have fouling with is the 40/10mm.

[Larry Gibson]

Hope fully the the PB GCs will solve the problem. I had some coated bullets 452-230-TCs the coating would severely foul the barrel of my M98 45 ACP. First 3 shots out of the clean barrel would go into 2" at 50 yards then the other 5 in the mag would open the group to 4 -6". A second mag of 8 rounds and the group would be 12 - 16". With the .006 PB GC on them they didn't foul the bore and two mags would go into 3" +/-.

[n.h.schmidt]

Hi guys Have either of you guys considered making changes to the linkage of the press to ease the effort and reduce the jolt of punch through. I used to make plain base gas checks for sale.I did it on three presses and with help made about 250,000 plane base checks. I made changes to all three presses to make it easy. On my Lee Challenger press ,the ram had a extra hole drilled 1" above the bottom normal hole for the cross pin. When I moved the linkage to that higher position That allowed the ram to top out 1" lower . Made the punch through very easy. Gloob your lee press could easily have that extra hole drilled in the ram to give you much better leverage . My other presses were harder to mod.