.338 in. Mag - second to 45-70 for more open deer-elk

[Shawlerbrook]

The 338 is probably one of the perfect Alaska calibers. I bought a 300WSM because about 15 years ago I got a great deal on a Winchester M70 Black Shadow on a closeout from Walmart. Also have great respect for the 35 Whelen after my dad shot his bull moose with one in 2013.

[HWooldridge]

I owned a Ruger M77 in .338 Mag back in the late 1970's. I bought it based on the writings of Elmer Keith and had previously belonged to the gunsmith at one of the local shops I frequented. He had already worked up a great hand load with 250 gr Nosler Partitions, so I simply duplicated it.

Great rifle but too much gun for South Texas so I sold it to a metallic silhouette shooter - he said it never failed to knock down the ram targets. I did kill one whitetail with it and IIRC, the meat damage was not terrible because the bullet more or less just passed through.

Funny thing was that one of my best friends also had a Browning Bolt Action in the same caliber - I bet we had the only two .338 Mags in East Texas during that time. Never met anyone else down here who owned one - most people top out at .300 Win Mag or .300 Weatherby.

[huntinlever]

I should also say guys, that likely my earliest reading came from writing by Dave Petzal - who seems to advocate for the .33 mags over .30 mags for elk. Very limited reading and zero experience with any of the above-mentioned calibers, outside of a single afternoon with the .338 and .300 WM, as I mentioned. I'm really happy with the 45-70 and don't expect a ton of opportunities where any longer-range weapon with good terminal performance would be called for, but just looking for a second rifle to cover these types of hunts on this bigger game. Like Robert, I will never push the distance on game.

Coming from no practical experience like you guys, my prism is pretty limited. I appreciate your input as I'm learning more.

[HWooldridge]

I should also say guys, that likely my earliest reading came from writing by Dave Petzal - who seems to advocate for the .33 mags over .30 mags for elk. Very limited reading and zero experience with any of the above-mentioned calibers, outside of a single afternoon with the .338 and .300 WM, as I mentioned. I'm really happy with the 45-70 and don't expect a ton of opportunities where any longer-range weapon with good terminal performance would be called for, but just looking for a second rifle to cover these types of hunts on this bigger game. Like Robert, I will never push the distance on game.

Coming from no practical experience like you guys, my prism is pretty limited. I appreciate your input as I'm learning more.

It's easily a 300-400 yard killer on big game if you do your part. I liked my Ruger but just didn't need it for the type hunting we have around here.

[TurnipEaterDown]

Recoil acceleration curve: The rate at which the firearm accelerates in recoil.
The rate of change in acceleration over time is called, in engineering terms, "Jerk" (no lie, though I learned this 35 years ago, so, brain cell half life...)

A comparison of loads from two distinctly different firearms, say a 338 WM with a mid range bullet, and 45-70 w/ heavy bullet, even IF loaded to produce the same momentum or energy, and the in the same weight of gun, will not create the same recoil characteristics as the time-pressure curve under the 338 bullet differs than that of the 45-70 in this example.
The Force applied to the bullet base by the gasses is also applied to the gun, and wants to move the gun in the opposite direction of the bullet (recoil).

So, you get a different "feeling" recoil because the the acceleration of the bullet is different.

It is not a total energy number or a total momentum number of the bullet that tells you much about recoil, it's a combination of things. Nice explanation of this in the A-Square manual "Any Shot You Want".

[huntinlever]

Recoil acceleration curve: The rate at which the firearm accelerates in recoil.
The rate of change in acceleration over time is called, in engineering terms, "Jerk" (no lie, though I learned this 35 years ago, so, brain cell half life...)

A comparison of loads from two distinctly different firearms, say a 338 WM with a mid range bullet, and 45-70 w/ heavy bullet, even IF loaded to produce the same momentum or energy, and the in the same weight of gun, will not create the same recoil characteristics as the time-pressure curve under the 338 bullet differs than that of the 45-70 in this example.
The Force applied to the bullet base by the gasses is also applied to the gun, and wants to move the gun in the opposite direction of the bullet (recoil).

So, you get a different "feeling" recoil because the the acceleration of the bullet is different.

It is not a total energy number or a total momentum number of the bullet that tells you much about recoil, it's a combination of things. Nice explanation of this in the A-Square manual "Any Shot You Want".

Fantastic info. Many thanks.

[huntinlever]

It's easily a 300-400 yard killer on big game if you do your part. I liked my Ruger but just didn't need it for the type hunting we have around here.

OK, thanks.

Seems on balance that if I were to choose just one, for many reasons, the .300 WM is the great choice. Much as I'd love to get to know the .35 Whelen, for one (and some of the others I really know nothing about), I anticipate outside my 45-70 for 100 yards or so, I'll have the one other rifle for more open terrain. Thanks for the input everyone.

[Ithaca Gunner]

I wasn't trying to sway you from a .338 Win Mag, more making you aware of caliber's logistics. Recoil, while harsh, the Ruger handles it well enough with it's factory ''decellerator'' type pad it's not painful, however without a firm grasp of the forend of the stock at the bench, it will jump 4-8'' off it's front support. The Nikon scope seems to handle the recoil well and has enough eye relief to avoid, ''scope eyebrow'' ( a good scope is a must on a .338 Win Mag, I would suggest Leopold since they have around 4'' of eye relief).

Ammo...at this particular time availability isn't the best. If you can reform it from .300 Win Mag or 7mm Rem Mag brass it may be the most inexpensive route unless you can find some once fired brass. Factory ammo seems VERY expensive. I've kept a watch on ''ammoseek.com'' and the least expensive was $75.00 a box for Hornady, latest was $120.00 a box. Large Rifle Magnum primers are suggested, the good news is, a large variety of powders are suitable! I don't consider jacketed bullets to be excessive in price when you consider what you're getting for your money. Beware though, there are a lot more ''Match'' bullets available right now in .338 than hunting type. Like any caliber, match the bullet to your game and enviornment. It's a flexible and powerful cartridge.

I'll state again, it's over power for anything I'll hunt, but I really like that Ruger M77MkII Hawkeye rifle! Ruger did their homework on the wood stocked versions, (I haven't handled any of the plastic stocked models). It's the best carrying and handling rifle I own, or maybe ever owned! I just happened to find a deal on one chambered for .338 Win Mag. I can live with that, and probably would have bought it even without all the ammo, brass, dies, and bullets, (the package did cause me to whip out the money like Matt Dillon drawing his Colt in a gunfight).

Good luck, you know what you want or need. The .338 Win Mag will take care of about any hunting situation if you accept or enjoy the hunt for ammo or brass. Treat yourself to a good rifle with a 24'' barrel and a stock that fits and carries well. Thinking about it, I have a Winchester M-70 FWT in .308 that I mind the recoil more than my .338. Stock design has a lot to do with it.

[ulav8r]

Dad's neighbor years ago told us of an incident when his son was elk hunting with a friend, I think in Colorado. The other guy wounded one and they were tracking it across a bunch of parallel ridges, as they topped a ridge they saw the elk on the next ridge. As it was near sundown, the son decided to take a shot with his .340 Weatherby. He held the crosshairs level with the top of the antlers and fired. The results were one dead elk, not a lost one, and one .338 bullet gone.

[Randy Bohannon]

Don’t discount the .338-06 , near .338 Win. Mag performance with 250 grain bullets and no brass issues coupled with outstanding accuracy it’s a legitimate 400 yard cartridge .

[FergusonTO35]

'Nother thing to remember: if you reload then you can tailor the ammo to your preferred power and recoil level.

[FergusonTO35]

Don’t discount the .338-06 , near .338 Win. Mag performance with 250 grain bullets and no brass issues coupled with outstanding accuracy it’s a legitimate 400 yard cartridge .

That sounds like a really sweet cartridge. Strangely, I've never been an '06 fan but I really like it's derivatives.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Don’t discount the .338-06 , near .338 Win. Mag performance with 250 grain bullets and no brass issues coupled with outstanding accuracy it’s a legitimate 400 yard cartridge .

An action to build a .338/06 was what I was looking for when I came across the Ruger .338 Win Mag. The .338/06 is a cartridge with performance above and beyond what you might expect out of a common .30/06 case, (as with the .35 Whelen).

Some max loads from Speer manual #14

.338/06 (.338 A-Square)

200gr. Spitz SP. 59gr. H4350=2,773fps.

225gr. Spitz BTSP/GSSP 64.5gr. RL 19=2,678fps. (about 1,750 FP energy at 500yds. about 1,800fps velocity remaining, about 59'' drop with 100yd zero)

250gr. GSSP 61gr. RL 19=2531fps.


.338 Win Mag.

200gr. Spitz SP. 73.5gr. IMR 4350=2,959fps.

225gr. Spitz BTSP/GSSP 78gr. RL 19=2,944fps. (over 2,000 FP of energy at 500yds. 2,000+fps velocty remaining, about 47'' drop with 100yd. zero)

250gr. GSSP 72gr. RL 19=2664fps.


On average, the .338/06 is only 200fps behind the magnum. Nothing concrete about the figures, just averages from the Speer manual.

.338/06 + ready availability of .30/06 brass-less recoil-lighter rifle-cheaper to shoot-usually 5+1 capacity.

.338/06 - almost has to be a custom build, few factory rifles in this caliber-about a foot more drop at 500yds. with 225gr. bullet, (best weight for most applications)

.338 Win Mag + Plenty of factory rifles available-flatter trajectory-more energy.

.338 Win Mag - Cost and availability of ammo&brass-recoil-possibly heavier rifle-3+1 capacity.

[Sgt H]

Another factor regarding recoil in the big magnums burning large charges of powder in a comparatively small bore is the jet or rocket effect. The pressure at the muzzle when the bullet exits is very high and jet effect adds to the recoil. This is why muzzle brakes work. Downside is hearing loss as more sound pressure is directed back towards the shooter. I have heard that one shot with some of these brakes while hunting without hearing protection is enough to cause damage. I absolutely hate being at the range and have someone next to me set up and shoot a rifle with a brake. Enough so that I have packed up and left or taken a break till they leave.

[MT Gianni]

I have two friends that have dumped theirs and gone to the 338-378 Weatherby for Elk. Claimed it wasn't fast enough nor a flat enough trajectory to do what they needed. Large bulls locally are in thick timber or seen at sunset 500 yards away. 308 is fine for the thick timber.
I believe their point is match the conditions to the cartridge.

[huntinlever]

I have two friends that have dumped theirs and gone to the 338-378 Weatherby for Elk. Claimed it wasn't fast enough nor a flat enough trajectory to do what they needed. Large bulls locally are in thick timber or seen at sunset 500 yards away. 308 is fine for the thick timber.
I believe their point is match the conditions to the cartridge.

I prefer to stalk deer in our northern woods, which can be pretty deep in. Everything I hunt is thick, for which my guide gun is great. I am comfortable hunting my 45-70 out to 150 yards though within 100 is my preferred range. I've never done it, but my hope is that a western elk hunt could be designed around still hunting deep timber.

I have no experience with longer distance shooting past about 300 yards so whatever I end up with, I know it's a whole other thing. Here our longest range taps out at 200 yards, and the availability to shoot there is limited.

[huntinlever]

Another factor regarding recoil in the big magnums burning large charges of powder in a comparatively small bore is the jet or rocket effect. The pressure at the muzzle when the bullet exits is very high and jet effect adds to the recoil. This is why muzzle brakes work. Downside is hearing loss as more sound pressure is directed back towards the shooter. I have heard that one shot with some of these brakes while hunting without hearing protection is enough to cause damage. I absolutely hate being at the range and have someone next to me set up and shoot a rifle with a brake. Enough so that I have packed up and left or taken a break till they leave.

I hear you - I hate them too. I'd rather take the recoil.

[FergusonTO35]

I have two friends that have dumped theirs and gone to the 338-378 Weatherby for Elk. Claimed it wasn't fast enough nor a flat enough trajectory to do what they needed. Large bulls locally are in thick timber or seen at sunset 500 yards away. 308 is fine for the thick timber.
I believe their point is match the conditions to the cartridge.

Pfftt, tell them to put away Roy's toys and get a .50 BMG.

[gunther]

338wm;s can be fire formed or necked up from 7mm mags, which are easily found. The Lee bullet and "The Load" of red dot will entertain you all afternoon, and should be good for deer, too.

[rockrat]

Had had a couple of 338's. A #1 and a Remington stainless 700. #1 was pretty accurate with cast, but the Remington shot groups that would embarrass most J-words (jacketed) bullets. Both went down the road and I have a #1 and a Remington 700 in 375 H&H. Both shoot cast at around 1.25-1.5" @100yds running 2000-2100fps.