MidSouth Shooters SupplyInline FabricationLee PrecisionRepackbox
Wideners

Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Flake rifle powder

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Rice Lake WI
    Posts
    137

    Flake rifle powder

    Dose anyone have any idea what the old flake powder used in 7.65 Argy is close to in burn rate? The stuff in question is loaded with 185gr bullets and is post WWII argintine head stamps.

    I am just curious more or less, I have worked up a load for the rifle I am goi my to use it up in

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    SE WV
    Posts
    5,768
    I would pull the bullets on a few of the original rounds and weigh the charges. That will tell you how much is a safe charge and by comparing it to known reloading manuals you can get an idea of it's burn rate.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    986
    I salvaged some flake powder from some Turk 1944 8x57, and thought it was rumored to be close to 3031. After using it in a .250 Savage, I felt it built pressure quickly, and decided to only use it for .30 cal and 8mm. I think Larry Gibson commented about it , maybe he will post the info again.

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Rice Lake WI
    Posts
    137
    I have been using it in 223 Remington,

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    20,319
    It was called "Nobel" powder and was commonly used in most Mauser cartridges and many civilian cartridges from the late 1800s up through the early '50s. Having shot a lot of it (pulled down and reloaded) and having pressure tested numerous loads I've found it's burning rate to be between 3031 and 4895. I've still several hundred 7.65 Argentine rounds I've pulled down and reassembled. along with some German, a couple thousand Columbian (FN manufactured) and several thousand Turk 8x57 cartridges. The powder is very good for reduced cast bullet loads in the 7.65 Argentine and 8mm cartridges, especially when a dacron filler is used.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  6. #6
    Larry, I wonder if you have developed pressure data with this "Nobel" pulldown powder in other cartridges?

    I have pulled down Turk 8mm manufactured 1956, which has a flake powder as you describe. 8x57, 199gr FMJ, 41gr of flake in what I pulled down.

    When I compare it visually w/ a Surplus Russian powder I bought 20 months ago (Fort Smith, FSP 749), these are visually same, and in 8x57 this FSP 749 is close in powder charge for max load w/ a 195 Hornady.

    I have developed a reasonable body of data for my own use of this FSP 749, and while I know very well that pulldown lots of the same spec powder do vary, I am curious to see just how close this FSP flake is to a known Nobel powder.

    When I search for data on obsolete Nobel powder, there seems to be necessary a number w/ name "Nobel" to retrieve actual data. (Nobel powders seeming to have descriptors like: Nobel Rifle #1, Nobel Rifle #2, Nobel Pistol #1, Nobel 60, 62, 64, 70, 80 seeming to be shotgun.)
    Do you know what 'Number' of Nobel powder it is that you state was loaded in these military Mauser family cartridges? Again, not thinking that it would be identical to old canister Nobel rifle powder, due to lot variance.

    I have a suspicion that this pulldown Russian powder I bought in 2021 (suggested to be Kazan powder) is either equivalent to, or just simply a renaming of this old Nobel powder.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    20,319
    Quote Originally Posted by TurnipEaterDown View Post
    Larry, I wonder if you have developed pressure data with this "Nobel" pulldown powder in other cartridges?

    I have pulled down Turk 8mm manufactured 1956, which has a flake powder as you describe. 8x57, 199gr FMJ, 41gr of flake in what I pulled down.

    When I compare it visually w/ a Surplus Russian powder I bought 20 months ago (Fort Smith, FSP 749), these are visually same, and in 8x57 this FSP 749 is close in powder charge for max load w/ a 195 Hornady.

    I have developed a reasonable body of data for my own use of this FSP 749, and while I know very well that pulldown lots of the same spec powder do vary, I am curious to see just how close this FSP flake is to a known Nobel powder.

    When I search for data on obsolete Nobel powder, there seems to be necessary a number w/ name "Nobel" to retrieve actual data. (Nobel powders seeming to have descriptors like: Nobel Rifle #1, Nobel Rifle #2, Nobel Pistol #1, Nobel 60, 62, 64, 70, 80 seeming to be shotgun.)
    Do you know what 'Number' of Nobel powder it is that you state was loaded in these military Mauser family cartridges? Again, not thinking that it would be identical to old canister Nobel rifle powder, due to lot variance.

    I have a suspicion that this pulldown Russian powder I bought in 2021 (suggested to be Kazan powder) is either equivalent to, or just simply a renaming of this old Nobel powder.
    Sorry, haven't pressure tested any loads using the Turk flake powder in other cartridges as I've just used the equivalent 4895 charge, w/dacron filler, as I use in the cartridge. The velocities are very close between the flake and 4895 powders. Haven't used the Turk flake powder for any full house loads other than with the original charge under the original bullets usually in Winchester cases.

    I've beat my head against the desk wasting a lot of time trying to research the manufacture of that type of flake powder, what it was actually called and what was used in what cartridges also.....to no avail. I believe the Germans had upwards of 80+ plants manufacturing it through WWII. It was also made by FN after the war as I have a large quantity of Ecuadoran 8mm (the Ss w/196 FMJBT bullets) made by FN that has 45 gr of that flake powder in it. It runs 2479 fps out of my VZ 24 at 53,500 psi.

    No doubt the Russians have been using that type of flake powder also. I have shot a lot of it up also. I've found that flake powder and extruded powder in Finnish, Russian, Bulgarian and a couple unidentified 7.62x54R rounds. Some Finnish VPT-31 had 47.5 gr flake powder under a 149 gr FMJ which ran 2817 fps at only 42,000 psi.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  8. #8
    Thank you for the reply Larry.
    Maybe I keep looking, likely I just use what I have of this FSP powder based on how I usually do it.

    Funny you mention an extruded powder in 7.62x54R.
    I also bought some "FSP 759" at the same time I bought that flake pull down. This "FSP 759" is an extruded powder that falls in pretty close to H380 charges generally. Supposedly also Kazan manufacture. With this, there is (by observation, not measurement) a seeming defined "knee" in pressure curve coming up in charge. Under this point, the muzzle report is a "blat" type of sound w/ rounded primers, and above it the normal "crack" w/ primers having a broader annulus flattened against the bolt face.
    I know all powders will increase pressure w/ greater charges, but this has a very definitive point where there is a behavior change.

    Thanks again.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    brisbane ,qld,australia
    Posts
    1,860
    Nobel #62 was an "upland" shotgun load for 12ga,and from my recall was a flattened fibrous open grain type ,looked like 22 rf powder......it was more recent (70s) replacement for Sporting Ballistite..........back in the day ,SB was very cheap as it was used in mortar rounds as extra extra ....when I started reloading it was 1/6 a lb ......roughly 15c a lb.........Fond memories of the smell of ballistite ,old guns I have still smell of it .

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check