New load development, no chrony, 100 yards, no ladder testing - shots per string?

[huntinlever]

I know I'm likely to get 100 different answers, and I also know I'm setting what to many are probably less than optimal conditions. Just curious what you guys do or would do if contained to these conditions. Basically, I know I could ladder test and save some rounds this or another way, but I don't have and don't expect to get a chrony any time soon, if at all. On the other hand, I'm less than fond of burning rounds needlessly to get to a reasonably accurate hunting load - which to me would be minute of deer at 100 yards.

Here are the conditions:

1. Marlin 45-70 guide gun
2. Considering 3 v. 5 shots per string
3. 0.5 gr charge increments
4. 100 yards (already on paper at 50 yards)
5. Powder is AA 5744
6. Primers are WLR
7. Brass is fired Starline
8. No fillers, even at lowest charge of 28.0 grains powder
9. Powder from 28.0 - 32.5 grains.
10. I am looking for acceptable accuracy within the above range and will stop at the minimum load required to get it. I hope that's closer to 28.0 grains ("1275 fps") than 32.5 ("1450 fps"). Based on my last outing, 28.5 grains seemed promising.
11. Estimated velocity range would be 1275 - 1450 fps. Not concerned with pressures as most of this is trapdoor with only one increment at the lightest 1895 data.
12. Bullet is 46-405V, cast to good tolerances 0.002+/- generally, at 399.6 grams. GC'ed.
13. Plan is to take a first pass through at 0.5 grain powder charge increments, then go back through again at 0.2 grain increments, finding the accuracy spot to a reasonable degree. I'd then run the same spot a few times/strings in a return trip to confirm.

Presume an initial "pass" at this 0.5 grain charge increment. How many shots per string would you do on this initial pass?

[Winger Ed.]

Three shots or five is pretty much the standard.

I'd stay closer to 1250 than 1450 unless you're wearing some heavy padding or body armor. for all that.
I run a 405FP in my Marlin CB at around 1300. After about five or six shots--- I'm pretty well done for that day.

I never shoot it much past 100 yards.
On the couple of deer I shot with it, it looked like a baseball had gone through them.

[huntinlever]

Three shots or five is pretty much the standard.

I'd stay closer to 1250 than 1450 unless you're wearing some heavy padding or body armor. for all that.
I run a 405FP in my Marlin CB at around 1300. After about five or six shots--- I'm pretty well done for that day.

I never shoot it much past 100 yards.
On the couple of deer I shot with it, it looked like a baseball had gone through them.

Good note Ed. Yeah, I can't believe what I used to shoot - 425 WFNGC over 39.7 gr IMR 4198 for 1700 fps. Nuts.

I should have said I am developing up from 28.0 grains and will stop whenever accuracy gets there for me. I'm hopeful it's well short of the set-limit of 32.5 grains. If not, and I learned this from past experience, I don't mind making several trips to the range. I used to shoot to the point where I'd injured my shoulder and needed weeks to recover. Dumb, and no more. (I changed one of the conditions above accordingly - thanks again for the note).

Unless I hit the shoulder bone(s), the holes I get tend to be basically the same in and out - basically a clean tunnel through everything, very little damage. (Most of the deer I've hit don't go far as they bleed out very quickly. On the other hand, few drop right there. Some walk around like nothing happened, then drop). Are you saying you get the large wounds with the times you loaded heavier, or just tend to get that regardless?

[Winger Ed.]

Are you saying you get the large wounds with the times you loaded heavier, or just tend to get that regardless?

They probably wouldn't exit going shoulder to shoulder. That's a lot of bone to crush through.

I got mine towards the end of when I used to go hunting.
I shot two of our small-ish white tails going through the ribs at right at 80 yards.

I have open sights, and didn't try for something fancy like a head shot, but wanted to stay in front of the diaphragm.
The heart & lungs looked like a bowl of stirred up red jello, and neither took another step.

I don't figure the .454-70 really needs to be pumped up super fast for what I want it to do.
During the initial testing of the Army adopting it- there was a Major in charge of the program.
With the original Springfield, and black powder ammunition-
He could hit a 6 x 6 foot square target consistently at 1,000 yards.
He wanted to establish that the new rifle and cartridge could take a man off a horse that far away.

So deer inside of 100 yards-- the original black powder speed of 1350 is more than fine for me.
Just for the novelty, I load a shoot some like that with Holy Black.

Also, Since I've heard the Target Kong have been known to drag off their wounded,
1350 puts a good clean kill on those little black dots without mercy.

[huntinlever]

They probably wouldn't exit going shoulder to shoulder. That's a lot of bone to crush through.

I got mine towards the end of when I used to go hunting.
I shot two of our small-ish white tails going through the ribs at right at 80 yards.

I have open sights, and didn't try for something fancy like a head shot, but wanted to stay in front of the diaphragm.
The heart & lungs looked like a bowl of stirred up red jello, and neither took another step.

I don't figure the .454-70 really needs to be pumped up super fast for what I want it to do.
During the initial testing of the Army adopting it- there was a Major in charge of the program.
With the original Springfield, and black powder ammunition-
He could hit a 6 x 6 foot square target consistently at 1,000 yards.
He wanted to establish that the new rifle and cartridge could take a man off a horse that far away.

So deer inside of 100 yards-- the original black powder speed of 1350 is more than fine for me.
Just for the novelty, I load a shoot some like that with Holy Black.

OK. No, my shoulders shots will not exit (a least not when they're squarely on bone) and have made a pretty good mess, though the animal went nowhere obviously. I try for just behind the shoulder and when I succeed, it's a pretty clean channel in my experience.

I know the story on the 45-70 demo at 1000 yards, one of the reasons I love the cartridge - what a tradition. Two movies come to mind - modern True Grit with Damon's character on the carbine, and Legends of the Fall, when the guy (can't remember his name) takes a couple of classic shots as well. Pretty amazing that in Legends, they used an authentic Sharps, 1869 or 1870!

That also brings me to say, man I wish I could also use an aperture. My eyes are just crap anymore and I'm not confident I'll be ever able to hunt peeps again. I'm seeing my eye doctor for a new Rx but it's not until March, and I have a bit of hope, but at this point I just need the scope (it's low power - A Leu FX II 2.5x20MM).

Your BP comment - by estimation only admittedly, that puts me right around 29.5 - 30.0, which is very likely a sweet spot given my one outing showed 28.5 as very good. Sounds good.

[huntinlever]

Ed, do you use filler at your 1350 fps?

[gc45]

Well, One MOA in a lever gun will be most difficult. Especially if looking to not burn up much powder like your post says. Having shot 25lbs or more of 5744, and if hunting the lower 48, I would suggest loading 400 grain WFN style cast bullets over 27-5 to 30.0 grains and go hunting. Forget about one MOA from a lever or you will be burning up lots of money trying to get there shot to shot if at all. Find the charge that works best in your rifle and go with it. For me that is 27.5 in the 4570, 28.5 in the 4590 both with 400gr WFN bullets. Have loaded many case sizes with 5744, all from the black powder era finding it a great powder for them and also for my large game hunting adventures.

My suggestions comes from shooting up at least 25lbs of 5744 all using a filler and having taken American bison, Elk, Alaska Moose and Canadian moose all using both
Winchester levers and Sharps SS Rifles. Although these animals are big, it's those large slow moving cast bullets that puts them down, the powder just gets the bullet there with safe pressures for my old antique Levers and Sharps rifle.

[huntinlever]

Well, One MOA in a lever gun will be most difficult. Especially if looking to not burn up much powder like your post says. Having shot 25lbs or more of 5744, and if hunting the lower 48, I would suggest loading 400 grain WFN style cast bullets over 27-5 to 30.0 grains and go hunting. Forget about one MOA from a lever or you will be burning up lots of money trying to get there shot to shot if at all. Find the charge that works best in your rifle and go with it. For me that is 27.5 in the 4570, 28.5 in the 4590 both with 400gr WFN bullets. Have loaded many case sizes with 5744, all from the black powder era finding it a great powder for them and also for my large game hunting adventures.

My suggestions comes from shooting up at least 25lbs of 5744 all using a filler and having taken American bison, Elk, Alaska Moose and Canadian moose all using both
Winchester levers and Sharps SS Rifles. Although these animals are big, it's those large slow moving cast bullets that puts them down, the powder just gets the bullet there with safe pressures for my old antique Levers and Sharps rifle.

Awesome, thanks for the notes. Your adventures sound pretty great. I know I shouldn't fear using filler, read up enough from the likes of Larry Gibson and guys like you who use it not to worry about ringing, but .... I do. One of the reasons I wanted to go into 1400+ fps was to perhaps avoid the need for it. Probably same thing pulling me back some to my old mold, 425 grain, from Tom at Accurate. Pretty crappy reasons, I know.

Just to make sure in case I wasn't clear - not seeking MOA at all, just in the breadbasket at hunting ranges. Pretty pleased with an old load mentioned above using 4198 and the 425 grain bullet from Accurate -



-but I now know that was way beyond any need, and it was punishing. Your experience helps confirm that. Thanks again.

[Winger Ed.]

Ed, do you use filler at your 1350 fps?

No. The loads in the Lyman book for trapdoors speeds I use don't call for it.

I'm a big fan of 3031 and 4198. I use about a grain over the minimum of 4198,
and about a 1/2 grain under the max. for 3031. They're in the 30s or so and give me about 200 loads per pound.
That gets me right at 1350 give or take a little with the 405FP.

I had both molds, with and without a gas check. One might have been a RCBS- I can't remember.
I cast up a coffee can of the gas check ones and sold the molds & left over gas checks during the shortage to guys here..
Next time around, I'll get something lighter.

[huntinlever]

Thanks Ed. Your use of 4198 is my other intended experiment - I note that in trapdoor speeds the 4198 is listed as the "accuracy" load in the cast bullet handbook. I do want to try it especially because it was such an awesome powder for my 425 grain. Needed hot, though, to start tightening up. I wanted to try again here, but I was going to start with 33.5 grains for an estimated 1400 fps. Based on your comments, I'll, too, start at 31.5 and go up.

Much appreciated.

[huntinlever]

Happy with this load. Not too far off yours Ed, at 33.0 grains IMR 4198. 100 yards, cold day. CCI 200's. My guess is about 1370 fps.



I'm still going to do a limited run on the 5744 around 28 - 31, but I'm very pleased with what I've got. Return trip will +/- 0.2 grains off the 33.0 gr 4198, to tweak and/or confirm this is a good spot.

Thanks for the help all.

[Winger Ed.]

All things considered, that's real good.

[huntinlever]

All things considered, that's real good.

Thanks for the help Ed.

[huntinlever]

Tweaking, but should probably call it. Seems like 30.0 5744 or 33.0 IMR 4198 are both pretty decent. This is today's 5744, 30.0 grains, 100 yards. Bottom right was called.

[Winger Ed.]

Yeah, with a sight correction, I'd call it good, and you're ready to hunt buffalo.

[huntinlever]

Yeah, with a sight correction, I'd call it good, and you're ready to hunt buffalo.

Thanks a lot Ed. Probably impossible to diagnose from a distance, but any thoughts on the vertical stringing? Cold day, barrel didn't heat up much at all. Shooter error/changing shoulder placement, something like that? I guess I'm confirming it's not likely a load issue, is that right?

[Winger Ed.]

Shooter error/changing shoulder placement, something like that? I guess I'm confirming it's not likely a load issue, is that right?

Rumor has it that vertical stringing is often caused by the barrel heating up and putting pressure on the front end of the stock.
Free floating a stock/barrel often fixes it. But that doesn't work too well for lever actions.

You'd need a better coach than me, but my first guess is you're not controlling your breathing.

In the Service, we were taught: BRASS as in B.R.A.S.S.
We were issued M14s but the principle applies to anything.

Breath in.
Release that breath
Aim-- getting your sight picture and sight alignment
Slack-- take up the trigger slack (begin putting pressure on the trigger)
Squeeze the trigger in one steady motion with just the tip of your finger-- not the middle of it.

Practice Doing all this in about 3-4 seconds. I don't have snap caps, so I use a spent brass.
After a couple thousand times practicing and concentrating on what you're doing---
it will come naturally, as will your confidence and steadiness.

It also works with a scope. If you inhale, and then aim as you hold it, after a few seconds--
you can see the cross hairs bounce up and down on the target in time with your heart beat.
People's natural reaction is to chase the bullseye around on the target trying to get it to steady itself, then shoot.
Open sights do that effect too, you just don't see it.

[huntinlever]

Rumor has it that vertical stringing is often caused by the barrel heating up and putting pressure on the front end of the stock.
Free floating a stock/barrel often fixes it. But that doesn't work too well for lever actions.

You'd need a better coach than me, but my first guess is you're not controlling your breathing.

In the Service, we were taught: BRASS as in B.R.A.S.S.
We were issued M14s but the principle applies to anything.

Breath in.
Release that breath
Aim-- getting your sight picture and sight alignment
Slack-- take up the trigger slack (begin putting pressure on the trigger)
Squeeze the trigger in one steady motion with just the tip of your finger-- not the middle of it.

Practice Doing all this in about 3-4 seconds. I don't have snap caps, so I use a spent brass.
After a couple thousand times practicing and concentrating on what you're doing---
it will come naturally, as will your confidence and steadiness.

It also works with a scope. If you inhale, and then aim as you hold it, after a few seconds--
you can see the cross hairs bounce up and down on the target in time with your heart beat.
People's natural reaction is to chase the bullseye around on the target trying to get it to steady itself, then shoot.
Open sights do that effect too, you just don't see it.

I'm positive you nailed it. Much appreciated Ed.

[Winger Ed.]

Well, I hope it helps, and we'll be looking for your picture in the Rifleman magazine holding the next Palma trophy

There's certainly more and probably better ways to train and practice-
but this should get you to at least hold your own and look good at the local range
as well as keep you consistently to 'one minute of deer'.

[huntinlever]

Well, I hope it helps, and we'll be looking for your picture in the Rifleman magazine holding the next Palma trophy

There's certainly more and probably better ways to train and practice-
but this should get you to at least hold your own and look good at the local range
as well as keep you consistently to 'one minute of deer'.

Thanks again Ed. Important lessons I've let go.