Lee mold simply will not work

[Larry Gibson]

Got the same problem at 75, heart says charge....body says retreat......

[john.k]

As an experiment ,I took a Lee 2 cavity mould straight out of the box,didnt clean or smoke it ,and started casting bullets.........worked perfectly.........now oddly enough ,for years I cast with the lead too cold,shiny bullets with rounded edges .....but no other problems .........But,if you cast too cold,you never have oxidation and dross.....doesnt happen.

[Larry Gibson]

Heating a mold with a torch is just going to ruin it. It will warp and never seal right nor drop round boolits.

Not necessary so for some purposes. I've also read for many, many years that dipping the corner of the mould into the alloy will also warp the mould. I don't heat the mould with a torch to bring it to casting temp but I do use it to "clean" the mould (more to follow). I also have been "dipping" for years with iron and aluminum moulds, particularly 4 - 6 cavity moulds, and haven't warped a one.

[Larry Gibson]

I’m curious too, Larry. I’ve learned that it’s very hard to argue with success, so I hope you won’t mind letting me know what you’ve found that works.

and

I'd also appreciate reading your results Larry. Never had any troubles myself but new info is good to have.

Okay, I'll post it.

Forget soap and water.

Clean mould blocks inside and outside and top and bottom of the sprue plate with acetone, brake cleaner or carburetor cleaner (my preference) by simply spraying it on and scrubbing a little with an old tooth brush. Pay particular attention to the cavities.

Let dry, it won't take long.

Now [here's the part where I get yelled at, cursed at and proposed I be banned from the forum] using a propane torch with a medium flame play the flame across the mould, inside and out including the cavities and the top and bottom of the sprue plate. Slowly play the flame back and forth and you will see moisture or oil or whatever come to the surface and evaporate. When it evaporates move the flame on until the entire mould is done. Contrary to popular criticism you are not heating the mould hot enough for anything to warp. Yes, it will be too hot to touch but that's all.

Let the mould cool. When cool I swab the cavities out with a clean dry Q-Tip. I also prep the top of the blocks, top and bottom of the sprue plate and the alignment pins with a graphite mould prep.

That's it. The mould is now ready to pre-heat and begin casting with. You should get excellent bullets within two three casts. If not, then the alloy probably doesn't have enough tin in it or you are not getting the moulten alloy into the cavity quick enough.

I cast with the alloy at 710 - 725 degrees generally, let the moulten alloy fill the cavity quickly from my BP Lyman Mag20 and let a very generous sprue form even if some alloy runs off.

I was shown this method many years ago by an old bullet caster. It works on any kind of mould. Since using this method I have never expeienced the problems you're having. I did experience them previous to the use of this method.

[M-Tecs]

and



Okay, I'll post it.

Forget soap and water.

Clean mould blocks inside and outside and top and bottom of the sprue plate with acetone, brake cleaner or carburetor cleaner (my preference) by simply spraying it on and scrubbing a little with an old tooth brush. Pay particular attention to the cavities.

Let dry, it won't take long.

Now [here's the part where I get yelled at, cursed at and proposed I be banned from the forum] using a propane torch with a medium flame play the flame across the mould, inside and out including the cavities and the top and bottom of the sprue plate. Slowly play the flame back and forth and you will see moisture or oil or whatever come to the surface and evaporate. When it evaporates move the flame on until the entire mould is done. Contrary to popular criticism you are not heating the mould hot enough for anything to warp. Yes, it will be too hot to touch but that's all.

Let the mould cool. When cool I swab the cavities out with a clean dry Q-Tip. I also prep the top of the blocks, top and bottom of the sprue plate and the alignment pins with a graphite mould prep.

That's it. The mould is now ready to pre-heat and begin casting with. You should get excellent bullets within two three casts. If not, then the alloy probably doesn't have enough tin in it or you are not getting the moulten alloy into the cavity quick enough.

I cast with the alloy at 710 - 725 degrees generally, let the moulten alloy fill the cavity quickly from my BP Lyman Mag20 and let a very generous sprue form even if some alloy runs off.

I was shown this method many years ago by an old bullet caster. It works on any kind of mould. Since using this method I have never expeienced the problems you're having. I did experience them previous to the use of this method.

I missed the controversy on this one. I have used an acetone soak since the early 80's for cleaning molds. I have been using a propane torch for pre-heat since the late 70's until about 20 years ago when I switched to a hot plate.

I started casting in the late 60's with Lyman 4 cavity mold and move to 6, 8 and 10 cavity molds. The torch or hot plate has never created an issue for me.

In essence the only difference between Larry's method and mine is I didn't/don't let the mold cool for additional cleaning. I do lube it hot.

[Rickf1985]

When I made that post about ruining the mold with a torch it was because I have seen people do it with a MAP gas torch and an oxy-acetylene torch, both of which are way too hot if not handled correctly. And these people were not handling them correctly. You cannot heat the mold super fast with the torch or it WILL warp. Slowly and evenly and not super hot is fine. But most people nowadays do not have the patience to do that. GET IT DONE! NOW, NOW, QUICK!!!!!

That was why I made that post.

[gloob]

Having just casted some, I'll add another tip. If you get a good rhythm going, but then some or even all of the bullets don't drop within a few seconds? Just pretend you didn't see that, and everything is fine. Close it up and "fill" it again, even if the cavities are all filled, already. I mean just pour some fresh lead onto the sprue plate and just keep going. The bullets will more than likely drop out, easy, on this cycle. You keep the mold to temp, and you keep your rhythm going.

When I first started casting (with Lee molds) I need to have a "club." I learned from another member to have a big stick to tap the mold or even tap out stubborn bullets. It never left my hand. Nowadays, I just snap the mold open, sharply once or thrice. If they haven't all dropped out, I just keep going. It'll sort itself out.

[rbuck351]

I have used a propane torch for preheating for a lot of years after cleaning with brake cleaner. The moisture you see when heating a mold is not coming from the mold but is produced when a gas (propane ) burns and then condenses on the cool mold until it warms enough that condensation stops. I usually smoke my Lee molds and sometimes have to Leement them if they refuse to drop bullets. I no longer beat on my molds as I open them with gloved hand. Sometimes I have to tap the mold handles lightly at the back side of the mold to get a slightly sticky boolit to release.

[Winger Ed.]

I don't use a hot plate or torch. I leave the mold/handles laying across the top of the pot for awhile as it heats up.
If I take a break, I leave them up there then too. Coming back, 2-3 pours - if any, gets 'em hot enough to work well going forward.

I've had boolits often times that don't really stick in the mold, but don't drop right out either.
Usually, briskly opening the handles puts enough of a shock on the mold blocks, they fall out.
Other times, (I wear those big arc welding gloves) I can just flick the back end of the boolit with a finger tip and it drops out.
If they stick so much I need to tap the handle's pivot point, I figure there is a bur or something going on I need to deal with.

[kevin c]

Thanks, Larry.

I also clean with acetone. I also have reheated the cleaned mold to ~450° and rewashed them in the hopes that I’ll get any residual oil that leaks out, but your way sounds more efficient, and safer than what I once did to preheat: blocks directly on an 1100 watt coil burner (with no ill effects, though I’ve backed away from that and now use an intervening metal block to diffuse the heat).

[Larry Gibson]

My method is not for "pre-heating" the mould. It is for the getting the last "moisture' off the moulds. It is only done if the mould is oiled and cleaned again with a solvent.

I "pre-heat" the mould(s) by also laying them across the Mag20 while the alloy melts and comes to casting temp. Or if using a cold mould I dip the corner in the alloy until it no longer sticks to the mould.

Again, my method is for cleaning, not pre-heating.

[Larry Gibson]

...... The moisture you see when heating a mold is not coming from the mold but is produced when a gas (propane ) burns and then condenses on the cool mold until it warms enough that condensation stops. I usually smoke my Lee molds and sometimes have to Leement them if they refuse to drop bullets.

I don't buy that. The reason being is I don't oil or need to clean my moulds between casting sessions. Once cleaned they remain clean. Playing the propane flame over the surface of a cold mould that already has been cleaned with this method reveals no "moisture" appearing. Thus, if the moisture is from the flame it should appear, it doesn't.

I made the mistake of "smoking" some moulds once, Lee and Lyman. Didn't work well at all. I found using a cleaned mould and a good alloy resulted in no problems what so ever. I will never advocate smoking any mould. I currently have 30+ Lee moulds and 50+ Lyman, Accurate, NOE and MP moulds plus a couple others. Using the cleaning method posted I have no problems casting excellent bullets with any of them. Smoking a mould to me is simply putting a band aid on the problem instead of fixing it.

[rbuck351]

That is strange. Every piece of cold steel or aluminum I have applied a propane torch to has instantly shown moisture. When burning any fossil fuel two things are produced, CO2 and H2O. I'm also not aware that steel or aluminum absorb water. Other methods of heating metal (non torch, hotplates and such) don't have the moisture show up.

I only have 40 or 50 molds from Lyman, rcbs, NOE, and Lee. The only ones that benefit from smoking are the Lee molds. As they get older and have a lot of casting time, they tend to not need more smoking.

[kevin c]

Well, if the propane torch method works, in that there aren’t any bullet wrinkles after prepping the mold that way, then I’m willing to give it a go.

Reminds me of breakthroughs in medicine where the established schools of thought were all wrong but couldn’t accept it (“Wash my hands to prevent deaths from post partum fever? What a ridiculous idea!”) If the new can be demonstrated to work, then the old needs to be reconsidered.

I got a new mold coming. We shall see!

[gloob]

Weird. I wonder how much of this stuff is a "ritual" of sorts? I mean, if it works the first time, maybe you just keep doing it? Or maybe there are specific issues that are created by lead contaminants, pouring speeds, technique. So one person benefits from this step or that, but not the other.

I sooted my first Lee mold, and it helped, at the time. But when I upped the pace and poured more lead on the top of the sprue plate, and just learned how to tip that sprue back into the pot, that wasn't needed. I didn't do any prep or cleaning of my next 5 Lee molds. I haven't touched the inside of the cavity of most of my molds, ever.

The only real cleaning is of the top of the mold and the bottom of the sprue plate, where lead smears slowly build up if I open the plate too early.

BTW, what I do for the sprue is to crack the plate open, carefully, so as to not drop the sprue. Then I CLOSE the sprue plate as I slide the sprue back into the pot, like sliding a pizza out of the pan. That way you don't accidentally splash the top of the mold.

Sure, you can just collect the sprues and then stop and dump them back in, once in awhile, but that breaks the rhythm.

[john.k]

Its the same principle as heating a gear to pull off a shaft ......if you see a gear with a coloured burn mark in a couple of spots,you know it has been ruined by an incompetent mechanic........experience and common sense are the necessary qualities to avoid wrecking things with a torch.........however gear makers have to specify that torches never be used ,simply because of the 10% that ruin a gear ...or bearing.

[cwlongshot]

When I made that post about ruining the mold with a torch it was because I have seen people do it with a MAP gas torch and an oxy-acetylene torch, both of which are way too hot if not handled correctly. And these people were not handling them correctly. You cannot heat the mold super fast with the torch or it WILL warp. Slowly and evenly and not super hot is fine. But most people nowadays do not have the patience to do that. GET IT DONE! NOW, NOW, QUICK!!!!!

That was why I made that post.

100%.

I don't like to suggest using a torch for just that reason. An experienced hand is a completely different scenario.

But, The average Joe, who just started casting, it's likely just gonna ruin it. because he gets it too hot too fast, lack of experience in the operation.

CW

[Larry Gibson]

I have used a propane torch for preheating for a lot of years after cleaning with brake cleaner. The moisture you see when heating a mold is not coming from the mold but is produced when a gas (propane ) burns and then condenses on the cool mold until it warms enough that condensation stops. I usually smoke my Lee molds and sometimes have to Leement them if they refuse to drop bullets. I no longer beat on my molds as I open them with gloved hand. Sometimes I have to tap the mold handles lightly at the back side of the mold to get a slightly sticky boolit to release.

I just went down to my man cave and ran the propane flame over a Lee mould and a Lyman mould, both of which I haven't used since BC (Before COVD). I saw what you are referring to on both moulds. However, that is not the "moisture" I am referring to. When you have a new moulds or one that has been oiled and you clean with brake/carburetor cleaner, let dry and then run the flame lightly over the mould you will see a lot more "moisture" appears to come up out of the metal and evaporate. Sometimes it will even bubble a bit.

It doesn't take very much heat from the PROPANE torch flame to cause this. When the "moisture" has evaporated stop using the propane torch on that area. All the hub bub over use of a torch of any kind to "pre-heat" the mould isn't what I'm talking about. What I am talking about was told to me many years ago when I was a novice caster. I have shown numerous others this method over the years and they all are amazed how simple it is to do and how well it works.

Once they are cleaned with this method they cast good bullets right away. If you don't oil the mould or "clean" it again this doesn't have to be done again. As I've mentioned before I do not "smoke" moulds for any reason. Nor do I use a hot plate, not even when living and casting in the colder, damper climates of Oregon and Washington.

[skeet1]

Most people that follow my posts and threads will know I am not one to bash Lee's products. Most of their stuff works quite well and a lot more works well enough to get the job done. But mold, well, that is another story. I do have a couple Lee molds that work very well. I also have a couple that simply will not produce a good bullet no matter what you do. This mold I bought new so I started right out from the beginning and went by the book. Washed the mold with acetone to get all the oils off of it, and sat it on the pot for an hour. Now, A shiny aluminum mold sitting over top of a lead pot with just two skinny contact points will never ever get hot. After an hour sitting on top of the Lee Pro 20 pot at 750 degrees the mold was at 190 degrees checked with a contact thermometer. BUT, I wanted to follow the directions so when it did not work and I had to talk to Jerry I had all the bases covered. So then it went on the steel plate on top of my hot plate which is set at 450 degrees. Once up to that temp I did the corner in the pot test, not hot enough. Now, I have seen somewhere in Lee's publications that you are NOT supposed to put the mold in the pot and right in the directions it tells you to. But they do not tell you what to do if it is not hot enough. So, moving on. Like any other mold I start running lead through it to fully heat it up. Note, I purposely did not lube the pins or sprue plate hinge at this point yet because I want to see how long it takes to get rid of the wrinkles and I do not want ANY form of contamination. So, as usual with Lee molds I had wrinkles. 20 casts later it was exactly the same. I started at 700 degrees and I am using straight wheel weights. I have already been casting with several other steel mold today with no issues at all with this alloy. so I bump it up to 750. I am running a PID so temp is well controlled. No change after another 20 casts. Bump it up 800, no change in the wrinkles but the bullets are getting harder to get out of the mold. I should mention that from the beginning I had two cavities that simply would not release. I could beat the handles off of the mold and they would not come out without my prying them out. So the rest of the testing was done without using those two cavities unless I forgot and then they just stayed full until the run was finished. So last try was 850 degrees, everybody says Lee molds like to run hot, well this is almost 200 degrees over where I usually cast wheel weights!!!! Nada, still wrinkled. Ok, back down to 700 degrees, heat is not the answer. I cleaned the mold well with brake cleaner and lubed the pins and hinges and instantly had even more wrinkles. Cleaned the mold again and no more lube. Smoked the mold, Worked fantastic, for about 5 casts. Bullets fell out, except the same two cavities. There is a mechanical hang up there that I will look at later. But I am also not smoking the mold every 5-10 casts. And by now I am well over 100 casts through this mold. So, at this point I am fed up with their directions, and their molds and I bring out the spray weapon, Graphite spray. Spray it down, nozzle leaks, spray myself down, not happy. STILL will not release and still look like crap.
Soooooo, Tomorrow I will call Lee Precision and I am sure I will be put through to Jerry so Jerry can tell me all the things I did wrong. I will simply refer him to this post.
So now you can all say I am a Lee basher because I am bashing their molds. In this case, yes I am.

I had a Lee 6 cavity mold, 312- 155, that would not release any of the bullets. I started measuring the cavities and found the mold was bored off-center where there was more of the bullet in one half of the mold than in the other half. I took photos of the method I used to measure the cavities and of the mold and sent them to Lee and they promptly sent me another mold. The new mold is perfect and casts very good bullets that I shoot in my 300 Blackout. I have nothing bad to say about Lee they stood behind the product and made things right.

Ken

[gifbohane]

I will start by saying that I will not buy or use Lee products AND that I know that there are tons of guys that would stake their lives on them.

But it seems to me that the original poster asked for solutions (of which I have none) and the Lee fanatics essentially are telling him that it is his processes that are bad, not the Lee products.

There has to be a reason for the poor results and Lee might have a solution.