Gunsmiths and other professionals

[Wolfdog91]

Just curious, in this day and age, if you have someone my age (25) come to you and say hay I wanna learn gunsmithing ( or cabinet making , mechanic work ect) is there anyway I could be an unpaid apprentice ?
What would you say ?
I'm just curious because I hear older guys talk about how they would sweep the floors at a local machine shops or something just to pick up this or that and try and learn. But now days .....well, anytime I've ever asked I get some really weird looks . I've gotten some to say yes but in general it's just a polite no .
Then again I'm not the best student for a lot of people I've learned ( also not the best teacher for many) so might be for the best but anyhow, what would you say ?

Edit: Hmmm, ok I don't think I framed what I trying g to say correctly. Ok so basically I'm not talking about trying to get a job or free training,that. It really it at all. More less it's me just trying to learn about something I'm curious about.
Basically if I see something that I'm curious about and I'd like to learn something about it, I ha e no rela problems paying or exchanging labor just to learn or have that experience. So prime example is a good friend of mine. Guy is a taxidermist. Very skilled. I got curious about it and asked if I could just sit in on him doing a mount , in exchange for helping him with some stuff around his place. Don't really have much of an intention to be a taxidermist just when I get curious about something well I hyper fixated and I want to just absorb as much as I can . I might drop it after I might keep fiddling with it I might start doing it myself, just depends. I've actually paid just to watch a good welder run a few beads. Loaded bricks for a brick layer just so I could see how they made their stuff so nice.
The idea of just expecting to get that from somone for free doesn't sit right with me. I find that kind of stuff extremely valuable so I'd at the very least like to exchange it for some of my time. If that makes sense .

[Winger Ed.]

Sure it's still being done. A long time friend started off as a good customer to our local gunsmith guy.
He was a welder, and did some work for him making some tools, welding on bolt handles for old military rifles, etc., etc.,
then helping some in his shop learning machinist kind of things, and that evolved into him being a full time employee.
He never went to any of the gunsmithing schools, but was doing OK on the more simple, straight forward things.

But it's one of those 'make your best deal' sort of things.

[M-Tecs]

The underlying issue is commitment. Training takes a great deal of time and energy. Most employers don't want to expend the time and energy to train unless they are comfortable that the trainee will be around long enough to justify the time and expense they will incur training. If that is something you want to do you need to convince them how this will benefit them first and foremost. Secondary is how it will benefit you.

[hoodat]

One time I got drunk for about ten years, and when I'd finally had enough, I woke up and was without my job, my woman, my home, my cars, my friends, my family, --- everything except my God, AA, and the probation department.

After getting sober for about a year, I spoke at an AA meeting, mentioning that I was at a point where I'd probably make a good worker for anyone who might need me. I offered to do anything, for anyone as long as it was legal, and I'd do it for free until they figured I was worth paying. I'd also need a ride if it was very far, cause I didn't have a car or a license to drive one with.

After that meeting, a guy came up and said he had a spot for me, and he wouldn't make me work for free. He started picking me up in the morning where I was bunking, and worked me about as hard as I could handle. We built pole barns, and after about six months, I was a lot smarter, hard as a rock, and still sober. In that period of time it was just like playing a country song backwards. I got everything I'd lost back -- job, license, car, friends, family, home, woman, and was closer to God than ever before.

Oh yeah, the point of my story is that yes, you can offer to work for someone for free, and it can work out very well. jd

[pworley1]

I have never had anyone ask about an actual job, but I have had several people over the years ask if they could help me for a day or two just to see if they were really interested in doing what I do.

[rancher1913]

actually, the lgs would probably love somebody that wanted to do that. his father used to babysit the store and do the piddle work but since his stroke the owner has to be there everyday now. if i was financially able to retire i would go help.

[country gent]

The actual apprenticeship program is dying fast for 2 reasons. 1) the cost and added work lost time if training. When you have a new guy starting out he must be shown everything by a skilled worker also taking time from him. 2) the lack of loyalty, Most would complete their apprenticeship in a small shop get their card and leave for a better job. 3) most young people arnt really interested in the trades or starting out at the bottom. The other one Ive seen is in big shops with the age discrimination laws when a apprenticeship is up for bid they have to take the applicants in their 50s and 60s where there is little pay back on the training and schooling. When I started the age cut off was 28 years old I believe.
The easiest way now is take some of the apprenticeship courses along with welding, this shows some commitment and usually gives you some documented hours of experience, making you more desirable than the guy off the street.
The original apprenticeship was 4 years, then some companies went to a 7-10 year program to justify or recoup the costs.
I started in a small job shop when I was 15, I was hired because I was enrolled to start in the machine trades course the following school year. I worked there for 4-5 years. Between the job and school I had over 5 years of experience to back me. To much to be eligible for an apprenticeship.
The other downfall was production shops that issued workers cards when they had the hours when all they did was change parts in a machine.

Never answer a question when asking for a job with I dont know, the answers they want to hear is, I can, next is I can learn.

Always remember the shop is trusting you with expensive machines and equipment, the risk of it being damaged is big concern.

Read up on it, watch you tube videos, at least be able to talk the talk, then learn to walk the walk

[Nobade]

The shop I worked for took on a lot of guys over the years to help. We never wanted them to work for free but couldn't pay much. Usually we'd start them on production work with simple machines, and if they showed aptitude would advance them to more complicated work. Unfortunately the ones with good aptitude eventually went on to "real" jobs where they got paid a lot more, and the majority either did poor work and got let go or got bored and quit. I was the only one silly enough to go on gunsmithing for 20 years where I didn't get paid much but made a living for myself and my family. So I would say if you bring a good attitude and work ethic to somewhere you should have no problem finding work at first, and if you have patience you will eventually be able to turn it into a good job. But as you said, being "hard to teach" will be your greatest obstacle. I don't know how many guys I have seen who wanted to fight with the boss from the first day and thought they knew better how to do something. It was obvious very quickly that they were not going to last and none of them did.

[WRideout]

An actual job for (relatively low) pay may be easier to find in today's job market. I don't know about Mississippi, but here in SW Pennsylvania, many machine shops are advertising for help. You might consider looking for a job in a shop that does similar work to gunsmithing; machine shop, cabinet making, etc. to get started.

Wayne

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You've got to have a passion for whatever trade you choose to apprentice in, a real desire to learn to do, and then to do, that type of work.

You've got to plan out your life in as much as that is possible, and life can change your plans. The field you want to enter can "go away" with changes in technology.

You've got to understand that starting at the bottom rung of the ladder, with nothing to offer except a willingness to work and learn, won't pay very well and there likely won't be such benefits as a health and dental plan. Just about impossible to support a wife and family, unless the wife is willing to work and bring in the income until you are established in the trade. You might find yourself working a 2nd job as well.

Some of the trades do have apprentice programs, and one that comes to mind is the Electrician's Union. First, of course, you have to join the Union. Then you have to work as an apprentice alongside certified Electricians for several years. Mostly on site new construction and remodeling jobs, doing the heavy labor part. Meanwhile, they have a couple of buildings that they own where you attend classes and practice installation of all the things that Electricians do such as wiring circuit breaker boxes, wall outlets, using EMT tubing, etc. After you have put in the required amount of time as an apprentice helper and have learned all they have to teach you are given an exam, and if you pass you'll be certified by the Union and licensed by the State. After that......you'll never be hungry......

Just one example. There are many more opportunities in the trades for someone willing to make the sacrifices necessary while learning. Most of them will likely require you to move to a heavily populated area where the jobs are available.

Very few things in life are easy or come without a struggle. I could easily do a four page write up on the Gunsmithing business, probably summed up by saying "Don't", but if that is your goal I'd recommend working your way through a gunsmithing school and starting out as a one man operation. Practice general gunsmithing until you find that you're really good at some one thing (or maybe two or three things) and then specialize in those areas. You could spend many years trying to learn from an established craftsman a little here and a little there, but a school will teach you the basics plus some in just a year or two. If you decide that you just have to pursue the career, then go for it; but if you decide that it's not for you or financially too high a hill to climb, you can move along to something else and still have a lot of life left to make other mistakes or become successful.

DG

[Jeremy McLean]

Just curious, in this day and age, if you have someone my age (25) come to you and say hay I wanna learn gunsmithing ( or cabinet making , mechanic work ect) is there anyway I could be an unpaid apprentice ?
What would you say ?
I'm just curious because I hear older guys talk about how they would sweep the floors at a local machine shops or something just to pick up this or that and try and learn. But now days .....well, anytime I've ever asked I get some really weird looks . I've gotten some to say yes but in general it's just a polite no .
Then again I'm not the best student for a lot of people I've learned ( also not the best teacher for many) so might be for the best but anyhow, what would you say ?

The short answer is yes it does occur in a very small circle that is getting smaller as each day passes. I really can appreciate your candor and enthusiasm by asking such an intelligent question. That right there is a good start. The best way to approach the honest no BS result that you are seeking is to hit the bricks in your location of every mom and pop shop until someone gives you a chance.

Apprenticeship programs are offered a lot of times at community colleges or private schools of trades.

Remember this advice when someone affords you any opportunity. Early is on time and on time you're late. Good luck to you I hope this helps.

Gunsmith= Machinist, Carpenter, Mechanic, Cobbler, Welder and Artist

[waksupi]

I've taught a few over the years, but turned most away. If they couldn't show me something they had made related to what I did, I had no interest in starting them out. The trades I picked up over the years from training by others, I always showed them what I had accomplished on my own first, to show I had at least a true interest and some skills to build on.

[jsizemore]

Learning to frame or car repair or plumbing is pretty easy with some good guidance.Most times if something goes wrong, nobody gets hurt. You start at the bottom and work your way up. Gunsmithing is a bit different. Things can go wrong fast. There's a bunch of liability that has to assumed by the smith if something goes wrong with something you've worked on. A gunsmith/friend let me look over his shoulder and then I practiced on my own stuff. GI bill will pay for gunsmithing school, or at least they used to.

[beezapilot]

It's not a specific job, but it is a pretty amazing apprenticeship with a fortune 200 company, then a job with superior benefits. NuCor is having a hard time hiring people with skills. It's the end of the game for this year, but perhaps something to look at next open season. https://nucor.com/nucor-technical-academy

Learning to checker is something that you can do with a minimum investment on tools and a serious investment on time and persistence - you can dress up your own stuff and if you get skilled enough apply at CSMC. They are most always hiring detail people, being in that shop would be pretty amazing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWuH88RlNSo pretty amazing showroom up there too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUl8AXurSaA

Personally, I think there are specialty smiths- the one guy that can do it all is a thing of the past. I've a buddy that re-barrels Winchesters for a big outfit, he has made his own roll stamps that will mark the barrels with the right data for the time period of manufacture. Is as busy as he wants to be and flies very much under the radar. But that is all he does, and he does it right.

Cabinet making has gone the way of machining, lots of CNC stuff howling away out there.

[farmbif]

if there are any real gunsmiths near where you are, not someone who just finished an online course from Sonoran desert institute or some thing like that, the best thing I could advise is to get to know them and see what happens it cant hurt to ask. other than something like that it would be a commitment in a program such as is offered by Montgomery community college in troy, NC.

[country gent]

My old gunsmith was like that. When I bought my first garand ( a blue sky ) the barrel was gone. I asked about re-barreling it. His answer was Ill orrder the barrel and when it comes in Ill help you do it. The douglas med heavy 308 barrel came in and I learned how to do it. When I asked about bedding and accurizing he handed me a couple books and told me its nothing you dont do everyday at work, if you get in a bind come see me. It was the same when I built my first M1A. Hes gone now for several years a good friend and teacher. We traded knowledge. He would be having a hard time setting something up I would come in and He would grab me.

[Wolfdog91]

Hmmm, ok I don't think I framed what I trying g to say correctly. Ok so basically I'm not talking about trying to get a job or free training,that. It really it at all. More less it's me just trying to learn about something I'm curious about.
Basically if I see something that I'm curious about and I'd like to learn something about it, I ha e no rela problems paying or exchanging labor just to learn or have that experience. So prime example is a good friend of mine. Guy is a taxidermist. Very skilled. I got curious about it and asked if I could just sit in on him doing a mount , in exchange for helping him with some stuff around his place. Don't really have much of an intention to be a taxidermist just when I get curious about something well I hyper fixated and I want to just absorb as much as I can . I might drop it after I might keep fiddling with it I might start doing it myself, just depends. I've actually paid just to watch a good welder run a few beads. Loaded bricks for a brick layer just so I could see how they made their stuff so nice.
The idea of just expecting to get that from somone for free doesn't sit right with me. I find that kind of stuff extremely valuable so I'd at the very least like to exchange it for some of my time. If that makes sense .

[Wolfdog91]

My old gunsmith was like that. When I bought my first garand ( a blue sky ) the barrel was gone. I asked about re-barreling it. His answer was Ill orrder the barrel and when it comes in Ill help you do it. The douglas med heavy 308 barrel came in and I learned how to do it. When I asked about bedding and accurizing he handed me a couple books and told me its nothing you dont do everyday at work, if you get in a bind come see me. It was the same when I built my first M1A. Hes gone now for several years a good friend and teacher. We traded knowledge. He would be having a hard time setting something up I would come in and He would grab me.

See something like that !

[country gent]

Be polite and wait for him to come to a convenient stopping point. Dont just walk in and expect him to drop what hes doing thats his livelihood your interrupting. Ask questions and show you have something to offer.
When they offer knowledge have a big container with you

A lot of us old timers have learned that knowledge is one of the few things that can be given away and kept at the same time.

One thing I always stressed to my apprentices was to always learn take any and all training pay attention to what everyone is doing and how, Ie you hire a roofer be there watch and ask questions, Learn all you can. Knowledge and training are one thing no one can take away from you/ they can lock the shop up and take your tools but employers pay for what you know not your tool box.

Another thing to keep in mind is someone who can answer question provide tech info on the show room floor so he isnt interrupted is a big plus to him.

[deltaenterprizes]

If you have an interest in gunsmithing I would advise you to start by learning how machine works is done.
Machining metal and making guns go hand in hand.
Once you learn how the parts are made then you will get an understanding of how they are fitted together.
I went through machinist school specifically to learn how to work on guns. My teacher was an excellent self taught gunsmith and taught me how to headspace bolt action rifles.
I took woodworking in high school so I have a little knowledge about stock work.
YouTube videos on machine work are helpful and some may not agree but the American Gunsmith videos are pretty good also.