M1917 Performance with Original Sight

[Chief TC]

Hello everyone. I have an M1917 Winchester with an original 1918 barrel and I can group it 1.8 inches at 100yds and I can hit steel out to 550yds (limit of my range). What i can't do is group it worth a damn at 200yds or more. What are your thoughts on why? Is the rear aperture so large that it makes it super difficult? I have read plenty of threads on several forums the M1917 is terrible for target work but I find it hard to believe decent grouping deteriorates at 200+. Every accomplished rifleman I have met or communicated with all say the same thing - if the rifle performs consistently at 100 then that performance extends to the designated distance. Any thoughts are appreciated.

[BLAHUT]

Try a smaller aperture ? Try playing with load ( powder - primer ) Bullet sized to your barrel ? Bullet weight ? Bullet length ? Bullet destabilizing after 100 yds, That would play into bullet length and speed along with twist ? Run a bunch over a coronagraph and see ?
I have a .223 that does the exact opposite, won't group at 200 or less, but will grope at a bit over 200, goes to sleep at about 200, then is super accurate.

[Chief TC]

True, I could create a smaller aperture but I'd rather not mess with the original sight. I don't plan to compete with it. Yes, I could try to develop a load for 200 rather than 100 and then see how that goes but being 30-06, I have a hard time thinking a well developed load at 100 would experience destabilization to such a large degree. M1917 was made for 150s and many like heavier bullets like 180 grains. But the spread is extreme. 1.8 MOA at 100 and then 6 moa at 200. I agree the load can be tuned and many other factors tried but even with factory M2 ball, there should not be this much spread.

[stripe]

I have this same rifle but the receiver is a Remington. My dad bought it for me in about 1965 and he paid $55 for it and complained mightily about the cost.
The rifle would not shoot accurately and so in desperation (I was an aspiring gunsmith at 15 years of age) and to justify my dads considerable financial investment for my deer rifle; I cleaned the living stuffing out of that bore with steel wool wrapped around a bore brush and all kinds of commercially available copper solvents. Enough copper came out of that barrel to make a penny. Gun shot great, and still does. Been using it for deer since I was 15 and I am 72 now.
Clean that bore until it shines.

[Larry Gibson]

Put a stick on black paster or black electrician tape over the aperture then with a small taper prick punch a hole in the center. Gradually make the hole larger until the front sight is in crystal clear focus. When shooting, the eye should be focused on the tip of the front sight, not the target.

[hoodat]

Also, what kind of target are you using at 200 and further. Get one with a large enough bull to work with your aperture, and you may notice an improvement.

Your 1.8" 100 yd group will double to 3.6 inches at 200 yards. Is 1.8 inches your average, or your very best? Add at least a little error for visual acuity at the longer distance, error for conditional influence (wind etc.), and your 200 yard accuracy may not be unreasonable. jd

[racepres]

Very interesting...all of it... If I could get my Bi-foculars to co-operate... I might still be able to use apertures!!!
Having a hard time with "ear, and post" ie Handgun/M94 winnie sights...actually need to turn my head slightly... Maybe Lined bi-focals!!!!

[Bigslug]

With the possible exception of the British No. 4's, you've got the best sights that have ever been installed on a military bolt action, so I'd probably go no further than taking Larry's "pinhole through some tape" advice. Watching your protective "ears" to make sure you're centered up is a good thing to check.

A 6:00 "lollipop" hold on a black bullseye that is visually the same width as your front sight post at the range you are shooting is also helpful: the disappearance of the gap at the top of your sight is your vertical clue; mentally drawing a line from the 9:00 and 3:00 edges of the black down to the left and right sides of your sight post are your horizontal.

Spend some time dry firing from your front and rear bags of choice. The 1917 is a heavy gun, but the striker hits like the Hammer of Thor and the buttplate/bore offset is a little large.. Get settled in and consistent with your grip technique before you send rounds.

You're not NECESSARILY correct on 100 yard performance extending consistent to 200, 300, etc... Might be you need a different bullet weight (possibly heavier) to fit the chamber's lead better?

[Chief TC]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Larry and Bigslug, great suggestions and I will try it. The rear apertures on the 03A3 and Garand are much better than the 1917 and I have no problem grouping longer distances with them. I have used 150 and 168 grain loads but will eventually try 180s. My Rem 721 loves 180s - I am sub moa out to 400 yds but with a scope.

[Mk42gunner]

The main reason people don't like the Model of 1917 for target work is the sights, while fine for a combat rifle, aren't easily adjustable for small changes in point of impact.

A temporary sight disk like Larry advised will let you see if it is you or the rifle.

Robert

[Chief TC]

The main reason people don't like the Model of 1917 for target work is the sights, while fine for a combat rifle, aren't easily adjustable for small changes in point of impact.

A temporary sight disk like Larry advised will let you see if it is you or the rifle.

Robert

Agree Robert. And when I acquired it, I had no designs thinking I could turn it into a target rifle based on the sights. I was just a little surprised how MOA at 100yd can be around 2 and then 200 is 6+ even with a large aperture. It is actually fun to shoot and as I said, I can ring steel at the range to 550 yds but it just can't group past 100 but it can hit the target. We shall see if reducing the aperture size helps.

[Mk42gunner]

I just thought of two things that may (or may not) help with your 200 yard shooting.

1. A large enough target that you can see clearly.

2. Smoke the sights. Preventing glare does wonders for group size. There is a reason all of the old Bullseye shooters had a means of blackening their sights in the range box.

Hope this helps,

Robert

[Adk Mike]

I tapped the peep sight hole in mine. A sight aperture spins in no problem.
Mine is a Remington. With .311 bullets and that sight it shoots really well.

[Chief TC]

I just thought of two things that may (or may not) help with your 200 yard shooting.

1. A large enough target that you can see clearly.

2. Smoke the sights. Preventing glare does wonders for group size. There is a reason all of the old Bullseye shooters had a means of blackening their sights in the range box.

Hope this helps,

Robert

Copy all, Robert. Thanks.

[challenger_i]

The sight, in the "flipped-down" position, is your battle sight. As such, it is for quick sighting and firing. Flip the sight up, and set it for 300yrds, and try your luck. Unless yours has been altered, the "long range" aperture is smaller than the battle sight.

[Chief TC]

The sight, in the "flipped-down" position, is your battle sight. As such, it is for quick sighting and firing. Flip the sight up, and set it for 300yrds, and try your luck. Unless yours has been altered, the "long range" aperture is smaller than the battle sight.

Correct, I am using the ladder sight for grouping. I use the battle sight sometimes to ring steel at 400 and beyond. The ladder sight aperture is still large. The 200 mark on the ladder sight gets me on 17 inch target but just not grouping.

[Larry Gibson]

My guess is at the longer ranges you are looking/focusing on the target and the sight alignment is lost in the large aperture. It is a very common problem, even for very experienced match shooters. I always had to constantly remind while shooting to focus on the front sight when shooting service and match rifles with aperture sights. My short range scores (200 yards) were always good but the longer range scores were not. What was puzzling was when shooting a reduced NMC at 100 or 200 yards [the NMC is normally shot at 200, 300 and 600 yards] my reduced 600 yard scores were always much better that when actually shooting at 600 yards and most often even the 300 yard reduced scores were better. My excuse was wind, mirage, load, bullets, yadda, yadda, yadda. Putting a scope on my match rifles quickly proved it was none of those things and the moa capability was the same at 600 yards as it was at 100/200 yards.

Seemed like all I was ever going to shoot were expert level scores. I thought I was focusing on the front sight but I was only fooling myself. It wasn't until I really learned to focus on the front sight and not the target {it's okay if the target is slightly blurred, you just aim at the same place on the "blur". Once I learned to focus on the front sight my scores improved drastically at long range. I quickly jumped from Expert Class to Master Class and then to High Master.

Try the tape covering the aperture with a smaller aperture in it and really work on focusing on the front sight.

[earlmck]

A few years ago my aging eyeballs quit automatically centering the front sight in the aperture (that would have been in my early 70's). Took me a few years to realize why all my iron-sighted rifles had lost so much of their accuracy.

I now find that I do much better with that great 1903 sight using the notch rather than the aperture.

Correction --oops! sorry! your sight doesn't have that option, does it? (been lotsa' years since I had a 1917).

[Chief TC]

My guess is at the longer ranges you are looking/focusing on the target and the sight alignment is lost in the large aperture. It is a very common problem, even for very experienced match shooters. I always had to constantly remind while shooting to focus on the front sight when shooting service and match rifles with aperture sights. My short range scores (200 yards) were always good but the longer range scores were not. What was puzzling was when shooting a reduced NMC at 100 or 200 yards [the NMC is normally shot at 200, 300 and 600 yards] my reduced 600 yard scores were always much better that when actually shooting at 600 yards and most often even the 300 yard reduced scores were better. My excuse was wind, mirage, load, bullets, yadda, yadda, yadda. Putting a scope on my match rifles quickly proved it was none of those things and the moa capability was the same at 600 yards as it was at 100/200 yards.

Seemed like all I was ever going to shoot were expert level scores. I thought I was focusing on the front sight but I was only fooling myself. It wasn't until I really learned to focus on the front sight and not the target {it's okay if the target is slightly blurred, you just aim at the same place on the "blur". Once I learned to focus on the front sight my scores improved drastically at long range. I quickly jumped from Expert Class to Master Class and then to High Master.

Try the tape covering the aperture with a smaller aperture in it and really work on focusing on the front sight.

Really good points Larry. If there is one thing that I am the worst at when focusing on all the components of a shot is the front sight/crosshairs. Yes, I mentioned in my first post that you experienced riflemen pretty much state the MOA capability stays consistent at distance most of the time. And considering I'm hitting the targets out to 550, it is definitely me and the aperture size in regards to grouping. I shoot a lot with my Sharps rifle and vernier sights with adjustable aperture and even the largest one is much smaller than the M1917 aperture. I am accustomed to being able to adjust, so I need to learn how to adjust to this sight and not the other way around. Thanks for the detailed explanation and will implement.

[tomd999]

Hiya,

There is a company that offers match grade (CMP legal for vintage rifle matches) reduced size aperture sights for the US service rifles. For the M1917 they offer an exchange program where you order the sight, you ship them a sight and they ship you back a modified sight in exchange. (They do this as the supply of spare parts for the M1917 isn't as plentiful these days) Also, if your rear sight is not centered when your zeroed, they can offset the new aperture slightly so that you can bring your windage adjustment closer to centered. (I have an '03-A3 with the sight base staked to the receiver slightly to the right so the windage was to one side, they offset the peep hole in the insert so that I was able to bring the windage closer to center so I have almost full windage adjustment again.)

As far as the M1917 being "terrible for target work", that's news to me as the GSMM CMP match lines for Vintage Military Rifles are filled with shooters with M1917's, Swiss K31's and Swedish M96/M38's. My M1917 will go toe to toe with my K31 and my M96's in matches but my M38 (Husky '42) with it's pristine barrel and wonderful 6.5x55 will outshoot all of them out past 400 yards.

If you want to keep your rifle original, you can do what I did, get a spare sight off ebay or Sarco/Numrich/etc, send that to them, when the modified one comes in, swap yours out and store it in a safe place. That way if you sell your rifle you can just put the original one back on it. (it's one screw)

https://shootingsight.com/?product=m...duced-aperture

Tom