Compilation of Larry Gibson’s load tests

[Silvercreek Farmer]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...LeveRevolution

Picked up a pound of the new Hodgdon LeveRevolution powder. I wanted to get a feel for this powder before attempting cast bullet loads. The suggested load on teh powder lable said 35.5 gr with the 160 gr FTX bullet. I didn't have any of those but wanted to see how that powder did with 150 gr jacketed. I've a supply of 150 gr Wonchester 30-30 PPs so I decided to work up a load with those. I started at 36 gr and worked up to 40 gr.

FLS'd PMC cases were used with WLR primers A LFCD was used to apply the crimp. AOL was 2.53". The rifle used for the test is my M94AE which has a strain gauge attached for psi measurements via the M43 Oehler PBL. The test was ran at TRRC range in University Place, 240 ft ASL with the temp at 48 degrees.

A 5 shot string of factory 160 LeveRevolution 160 gr FTX rounds were fired prior to the test to get a "reference" for velocity and the peak MAP (Maximum Average pressure). The factory ammo ran 2433 fps at 36,800 psi(M43). A previous test of that factory ammunition at 75 degrees gave 2452 fps at 37,800 psi(M43). The SAAMI MAP for the 30-30 is 42,000 psi. Given the temperature this morning I decided that a psi(M43) of 37,000 would be my MAP with the reloads.

Bottom line is 40 gr of LeveRevolution under that 150 gr PP is a 100% density load. It topped out at 37,100 psi(M43) with a velocity of 2551 fps. Accuracy for the 5 shots was 2.1" with the apurture sights. The time/pressure curve was not as steep with considerably more time under the "rise" than with the factory load. The peak psi was reached at mid barrel length (12") with the reload vs 9" with the factory load. Standard factory 150/170 gr jacketed load hit peak psi at 7 - 8" of barrel. Yes I can measure where the peak psi occurs in the barrel.

Some years back after reading Paco kelly's articles on loading for the newer M94s I developed a Paco 150 gr load using H335 in a similar M94AE with a 24" barrel. Loads were developed by watching primer back out and stopping when the primer was no longer backing out. This indicates there is then sufficient psi to be pushing the case back against the bolt. PO Ackley gives a very good description of this technique in his writings. I stopped 3 gr under what a current loading manual listed as max for that bullet at the tiem. Velocity was 2527 fps and accuracy was good. That load tested this morning revealed a MAP of 44,400 psi(M43), obviously over SAAMI's MAP for the 30-30.

Bottom line here is that the LeveRevolution Powder is allowing a very real 2550 fps with 150 gr jacketed bullet at factory level psi's below the SAAMI MAP. That's pretty darn good to me and is a worth while powder thus far tested. I'm looking forward to some 311041s over this powder in this M94AE.

Larry Gibson

[Silvercreek Farmer]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...ressures/page2

Pressure tested the 5.1 gr Blue Dot and 7.1 gr 2400 loads under the RCBS 35-200-FN today. Both gave very low pressure and velocity from the 7/8" Contender barrel. Accuracy for both loads (10 shot test each) was right at 2" at 50 yards......about as good as I can do with the 1.5X scope on the Contender.

Cartridge; 38 SPL (R-P)
Primer; WSP
Powder; Blue Dot (Alliant) 5.1 gr
Bullet; RCBS 35-200-FN, COWWs +2% tin AC'd, Sized .358 lubed with 2500+
Cartridge OAL; 1.64"
Velocity (muzzle); 798 fps, ES 59 fps & SD 42 FPS
PSI (M43); 11,500


Cartridge; 38 SPL (R-P)
Primer; WSP
Powder; 2400 (Alliant) 7.1 gr
Bullet; RCBS 35-200-FN, COWWs +2% tin AC'd, Sized .358 lubed with 2500+
Cartridge OAL; 1.64"
Velocity (muzzle); 785 fps, ES 73 fps & SD 33 FPS
PSI (M43); 10,700

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...=1#post5650067
this isn't the original thread, I can't find it, this link is to where Larry re-posted this info on 11/25/2023 which is probably a better place to have a current discussion about it...and the Photo's didn't transfer


HV Lube Test (14 lubes) Results

First I want to thank all who donated lubes, GCs, reloading equipment and some money to assist in the completion of this test. Without your help and assistance the test would not have been as extensive nor as easy to complete. Thank you all.

My purpose in conducting this test was not to prove any lube better than any other lube. I also did not favor any of these lubes but conducted the test equally with each of them. My purpose in conducting this test is to find out which lube(s) work best at the higher velocities we are now using (2600 – 3000+ fps).

I managed to get to the range early the day before Christmas to conduct to lube test. It was supposed to be a bright sunny day with 0 – 4 mph winds reaching the high 50’s. However a cold front came through early so it was a colder 44 – 48 degree day that became overcast just before noon. Fortunately the wind remained calm most of the day but did pick up to about 3 mph late in the tests. The wind was out of 5 – 6 o’clock so it did not measureable effect the results.

The 14 lubes tested were (in order of test);


Javelina
White Label 2500+
2700+
Tac 1
Bullshop LOTAK
Felix FWFL (original batch)
Tac X
LBT Blue
Voodoo
White Label Carnauba Red
Lyman’s Orange Magic
Gear’s SL-68
Gear’s SL-68.1
Lyman’s Super Moly

NOE 30 XCB bullets cast of #2 alloy and WQ’s with a BHN of 22 – 23 were visually sorted (twice) for defects and weight sorted with the selected bullets at 158.7 +/- .1 gr. The selected 30 XCBs , after 30+ days of aging, had Hornady GCs seated in a Lyman 450 Lubrasizer with a .311 H&I die installed. The Lyman GC seating tool for the 450 was used so only the GC was initially seated and partially crimped. The NOE nose punch that comes with the NOE mould for the specific bullet was used. Once the GCs were seated they were lightly sprayed with a lanolin/alcohol lube and were pushed through a .311 Lee sizer. Since the bullets were .3105 as cast the Lee sizer only finished crimping the Hornady GCs on the base of the bullets. The bullets were sorted in lots of 15 each for each one of the lubes. That was 210 30 XCB Bullets for this test.

The Lyman 450 Lubrasizer already had 2500+ lube in it so the 15 bullets for 2500 lube were lubed in it. The .311 H&I die only lubed the .3105 bullets. The other lots (13) of 15 bullets each were hand lubed. I made sure all the lube grooves were full and left an excess of lube on the bullets. The excess was cleaned off with another pass through the Lee .311 sizer. Each bullet was once again inspected to make sure the lube filled each groove completely. The weight for the fully dressed bullets varied slightly (+/- .2 gr) based on the lube. I used the weight of 164.7 gr for the data input as that was for 2500+ lube which seemed to be close to “average”.

The cases used were Winchester Palma .308W cases that were match prepped and well fire formed in the test rifle. They were neck sized in a Redding Bushing die with a .335 bushing. The NOE M die case mouth expander for the Lee Case Expander die was used. The NOE expander slightly sized the inside of the case necks at .309 and flared the case mouths at .311. The cases were primed with Wincher large rifle (WLR) primers using a RCBS bench mounted priming tool.

The powder for this test was AA4350 at 47 gr. That has proven to be a consistently accurate load over the last few months with the NOE 30 XCB Bullet in the test rifle. Accuracy has consistently run from just under moa to 1.6 moa over many 10 shot groups. That load has been producing 2600 fps +/- with 2500+ lube in the 85 – 110 degree temperatures. The velocity during this test (2578 fps with 2500+ lube) dropped a bit due to the colder temperature of 44 – 48 degrees. That was expected. The 47 gr load is right at 100% load density in the Winchester fire formed cases with the seated NOE 30 XCB bullet.

The powder charges (47 gr each) were individually weighed to .05 gr +/- on a Redding balance beam scale. All of the AA4350 used was from the same canister. The 30 XCB NOE bullets were seated to the specified OAL (bullet ogive against the leade) with a Bonanza Forster Benchrest Seater. The 15 rounds for each lube were sequentially placed in MTM Cartridge boxes. Once loaded the ammunition was maintained in an upright position until each round was removed from the cartridge box.

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The test rifle was the same Palma rifle with 14” twist 27.6” Schultz & Larson barrel on the byf M98 action. The stock is a fiberglass replica of the old Savage 112V Varmint stock. It is not a “bench rest stock”. The scope is the same original Weaver T-16 as used before.

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The rest used on the solid cement bench was my old Hoppe’s that I’ve had for close to 40 years. It has a leather rabbit ear bag on it and a leather san filled rabbit ear bag is used for a rear rest.

The Oehler M43 PBL was used to record the instrumental velocity, muzzle velocity and pressure data. The pressure data is obtained via a strain gauge permanently mounted on the barrel at the SAAMI specified location.

The test of each lube was started with a cool clean barrel. The barrel was cleaned between each lube test using 2 wet patches followed by 10 strokes with a bronze brush and cleaned out with 5 more patches. Hoppe’s #9 was the solvent used on the patches and brush. The brush was cleaned off after each use with carburetor cleaner to prevent cross contamination of lube via the brush.

Cartridge loading into the rifle procedure; each cartridge was taken from the MTM cartridge box individually with the right hand and kept in a vertical position, the case head was put on the follower next to the bolt face (all the way to the rear) and the cartridge was rotated down and pushed into the magazine as the M98 feeds from the magazine. Consistency of loading each cartridge into the rifle was maintained.

With each lube tested there was a 5 shot test considered “foulers” before the actual 10 shot test was conducted. The target used was 22.5” wide and 17.5” tall. I stamped 6 diamond aiming points on each target. The “foulers” were fired using the top diamond with the record 10 shot group fired at the diamond directly under. The aiming point for each was the bottom point of the diamond.

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After firing each shot the bolt was opened and left fully to the rear, the case removed and a stop watch started. The empty case was put into the cartridge box. The shot impact on the target was observed through a 25X Kowa spotting scope and plotted on a separate sheet to track the location of each shot on target. After a full minute had passed at least (between shots) the next cartridge was loaded and fired. The unloading, timing and tracking were then repeated for that shot and all subsequent shots. All 210 shots (the 5 fouler shots as well as the 10 shot test shots) of this test were loaded, fired and tracked the same way.

The results; obviously this high velocity lube test was a very detailed and extensive test. There were 28 separate groups fired with 28 separate targets and data sheets. I traced all the bullets holes (except one which was not on target) on their respective Oehler data sheet print out. I do this to maintain a record of pertinent groups with their associated data and it gives us a good idea of how the actual group looked. I also numbered each shot sequentially as they were shot.

I won’t post all 28 data sheets as that would be prohibitive. I will post the top four and summarize the test.

Let’s discuss the “foulers” first. It was quite interesting to note that out of the cool clean barrel only 2 of the lubes had the 1st shot go “to group”. With several lubes it took 3 to perhaps 6 – 7 shots before the group “settled”. With one lube the first shot did not hit the target at all but appears (from the impact in the berm) to have gone several inches off to the left of the target. I plotted the 1st shot for each lube on a 11x8.5” sheet of paper. Three are not on that paper with one off about 1” at 2 o’clock, one down and away at 4 – 5 o’clock about 1.8” off and the one that was completely off target. Being familiar with 2500+ lube in this load in this rifle it was interesting the 1st shot went almost to the same poi as it always does. Whether or not the rest will be consistent that way should be tested by the user in the individual rifle/load.

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So, without further ado here is the standing based on group size (10 shots at 100 yards) and note this is not the order in which tested. In the case where the group size was the same the test with the higher velocity was listed first;




1. 2500+ 1.5”
2. Javelina 1.5”
3. LOTAK 1.82
4. 2700+ 1.9”
5. FWFL 1.9”
6. Voodoo 2.2”
7. Super Moly 2.3”
8. Tac 1 2.44”
9. Carnauba Red 2.45”
10. Orange magic 2.45
11. SL-68 2.58
12. Tac X 3.55
13. LBT Blue 3.75”
14. SL-68.1 3.95”

I was intrigued by the 62 fps variation in muzzle velocity between the highest and the lowest with the difference simply being the lube. Previous experience testing several strings of the same load finds a variation of velocity of 10 – 15 fps between test strings is acceptable. A difference of 20 fps is rare but I’ve never seen a difference of 62 fps! A review of the psi for each load showed a correlation between velocity and psi. The higher velocity had the higher psi, the lower velocity had the lowest psi. The trend being as the psi decreases so does the velocity. Perhaps one lube is “slicker” (viscosity?) than the other and allowing the bullet to get out of the barrel before the psi and the velocity reach a higher level? Here is the standing based on velocity and the psi for that velocity;

1. LOTAK 2597 fps 42,100 psi
2. 2700+ 2592 fps 41,600 psi
3. Tac X 2584 fps 42,200 psi
4. 2500+ 2578 fps 41,900 psi
5. Tac 1 2576 fps 41,000 psi
6. Super Moly 2574 fps 41,300 psi
7. Voodoo 2573 fps 41,200 psi
8. Felix’s FWFL 2571 fps 41,700 psi
9. Carnauba Red 2571 fps 41,000 psi
10. LBT Blue 2565 fps 40,600 psi
11. Javelina 2563 fps 41,500 psi
12. SL-68 2562 fps 40,800 psi
13. SL-68.1 2542 fps 39.500 psi
14. Orange Magic 2535 fps 39,200 psi

Note; I could find no correlation between fps, psi and accuracy. The internal ballistics for all the loads were excellent. The SD and ES with 11 of the lubes having velocity ES of less than 50 fps (8 of them less than 40 fps) and SDs of 9 – 14 fps which is excellent for 10 shot test of this nature. It should be noted the top four lubes accuracy wise had SD/ES of 10/28, 10/34, 12/36 and 10/29. In and of itself that is a pretty consistent performance.

A quick recap of each lube in order of accuracy;

2500+; this lube gave its usual great performance. It took 3 foulers and then settled into group. The SD/ES was 10/28 fps with the 10 shot test into 1.5” at 2578 fps. The 1st five shots of the test group went into .94”. The average velocity for this load in 85 – 100+ degrees has been right at 2600 fps. At 44 degrees the velocity was 22 fps less than that. This is still my “go to” lube for this rifle.

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Javelina; good old Javelina is still plugging away. Unfortunately it isn’t available anymore because the original Alox used isn’t made anymore. The group settled in after just 2 foulers and shots 3-5 would have been in the 1.5” 10 shot group at 2563 fps. The SD/ES was 10/34 fps with the other internal measurements being as good. I have 3 tubes of it less and will probably use it with this rifle. I also will test Lar’s White label NRA 50/50 with this rifle.

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Bullshop’s LOTAK; probably no surprise to Bullshop that his lube did very well. The 1st shot out of the cool clean barrel was about 9” out of the group but the next 4 foulers were within the test group demonstrating excellent seasoning of the barrel. The 2597 fps was the highest velocity recorded of the lubes. The SD/ES were also excellent at 12/36 fps and all the other internals were excellent also. The 1.82” ten shot group was very good but the 1st five shots went into 1.35”. This definitely another I will test further.

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2700+; this also appears to be an excellent high velocity lube. The results here along with Bjorn’s success with it pretty much confirm that. It appears from the distribution of the 5 foulers and then shots 1 & 2 of the test group that it requires 7+ shots at high velocity to properly “season” the barrel. The SD/ES was also excellent at 10/29 fps at 2592 fps. I will definitely be further testing this lube as I increase velocity.

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Felix FWFL (original batch); I’m sure Felix is smiling up on the “Big Range” at the showing his lube made here. It also seasoned the bore within 2 shots of the foulers. The other 3 foulers would have been in the middle of the ten shot test group of 1.9”. The velocity was 2571 fps but SD/ES of 19/63 fps might indicate problems. However, regardless of the oft heard single digit SDs it is closer to reality with 10 shot test strings of this level of a load.

Voodoo; This lube held promise as the foulers 2-5 settled into a very nice 1.2”. even within the test group of 10 shots 7 of those went into 1”. Problem was the 3 flyers opened the group to 2.2”. The internals were all very good with the SD/ES at 14/39 fps at 2573 fps except the pressure traces show evidence of secondary pressure spikes on the downside of the pressure curve

Lyman’s Super Moly; while the test group was not exceptional at 2.3” all the foulers would have gone into the test group. This lube gave the smallest SD/ES both on the fouler test (7/20 fps) and on the 10 shot test of 9/24 fps. This lube just dropped 3 of the shots consistently low out of the main group at 4 – 5 o’clock.

Tac1; this lube did not season the barrel until perhaps 10 shots had been fired (5 foulers + the 1st five shots of the test) . The velocity of 2576 fps with an SD/ES of 10/32 along with consistent internal pressure measurements belies that though. The group of 2.44” put this lube in the middle of the pack.

Carnauba Red; the 1st two fowlers hit very close together about 2” out of the group with shots 3 – 5 settling down and would have been in the main test group. The internals were good with the SD/ES at 12/37 fps at 2571 fps. The dispersion of shots within the group were consistent but the group was just 2.45”.

Lyman’s Orange Magic; This lube also had the 1st fouler shot basically go to group. The internals weren’t as consistent as 10 of the other lubes with the SD/ES at 12/45 fps at 2535 fps. The shot distribution was fairly consistent throughout the 2.45” test group. This lube gave the lowest velocity and lowest psi.

Gear’s SL-68; it only took one fouler for this lube to settle down and group also. The internals weren’t bad with the SD/ES at 15/40 fps at 2562 fps. Six of the 10 test shots went into a very tight .65” group but 4 flyers opened the group to 2.58”. There was no consistency to the direction of the flyers.

Tac X; this lube just did not perform well at this velocity level. The 2684 fps and SD/ES of 16/52 fps indicates a couple shots were out of the mainstream. Looking at the measured velocities of each shot we find that 2 of the 10 shots were indeed way out of the mainstream. That probably accounts for the somewhat erratic performance and the 3.55” group.

LBT Blue; it had been numerous years since I tested LBT Blue. In previous tests I found it satisfactory upwards of 2300 – 2400 fps but it did not perform well above that. I also have tested LBT Blue Soft with similar results. In this test it appeared hopeful as foulers 2 – 5 grouped fairly well at 1.35”. However the 10 shot test group spread to 3.75” with no consistency to shot placement within the group. The SD/ES was 11/41 which is a bit of a large spread. The velocity was 2565 fps. The other internals showed nothing to account for the group size. However, 6 of the pressure traces show a pressure spike.

Gear’s SL-68.1; this is the only lube that had the 1st shot of the foulers unaccounted for. It went off the left side of the target frame judging by the impact on the berm. There also was no data recorded for the shot and I’ve no reason why. The next 4 foulers group quite well and would have also been within the test group. Things seemed to be going along pretty good until shot #6 of the 10 shot test group which went way high. I did not call the shot high but good. Checking the data we see that shot is the lowest velocity of the 10 shots. The next shot, #7, also went out of the main group. Given this lube gave the worst SD/ES at 22/76 with the largest group at 3.95” there seems something amiss with it considering the 1st fouler shot was lost entirely and then the flyers in the test group. Eight of the 10 shots went into 1.9” and 9 of the shots, excluding #6, went into 2.15”.

Note; there was no instance of leading with any of the lubes. Some did offer more resistance when pushing the 1st wet patch through. Those softer lubes with lower viscosity seemed to “foul” less.

I really don’t have a “favorite” and will use what works the best. This test is no condemnation of any of the lubes tested. We can suppose these lubes work just fine for the lower velocity levels they were made for. That some do not work as well at higher velocity where few have gone is, again, no condemnation. Since 2500+ and 2700+ have proven themselves in this velocity range their position in the top 3 is no real surprise. Now Bullshop’s LOTAK on the other hand is one I intend to thoroughly test at 2900+ fps also when I get the 16” twist barreled M98 chambered in 30x60.

I would suggest anyone shooting at velocities above 2500 fps test the top 3 lubes in their rifle also. The problem is one that changing lubes in a lubrasizer can be a pain. Also accuracy problems associated with the lube, if the wrong one is selected, can cause the shooter to attempt to solve problems that aren’t really there in other areas. Best to hand lube with several different lubes using a known accurate load for the test as I did. It’s not that difficult. However, since we know 2500+, 2700+ and LOTAK work very well upwards of 2600 fps in numerous rifles simply picking one of those might solve some problems. We also know that 2500+ and 2700+ work at velocities above 2600 fps to 3000+ fps. If working or expecting to work with velocities at that level then selecting 2500+ or 2700+ will probably be the best choices. However, testing with my own 30”+ barrel of 16” twist chambered in 30x60 of the top 3 lubes is one of my 1st priorities with that rifle.

Larry Gibson

[popper]

39gr leverE under a 160FTX tested by Larry proved to be my load for 336 marlin.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...8-gr-SWC/page2

I conducted the pressure/velocity testing of the two Buffalo Bore loads discussed. Those two factory loads are BBs LSWHP +P load and BBs Heavy Outdoorsman +P load. I received a box of 20 rounds each. Thus, with 10 rounds used for the pressure test in the Contender test barrel (7.94") I had 10 rounds of each load left. I then shot a five shot velocity test in my S&W M19 with 2 1/2" barrel and my Ruger Security Six with a 6" barrel. Granted a 5 shot test isn't definitive by any means but it gives us a simple comparison to the recorded Contender velocity and the factory specified velocities. As usual, prior to the test of BB loads I shot a test of my "reference" Speer 158 standard 38 SPL SWC factory ammunition. The reference ammunition average was 100 psi close to the average which is well within test standards.

Cartridge specifications:

Buffalo Bore 158 LSWHP GC +P #20A/20 advertised velocity of 1,000 fps
Starline 38 SPL +P cases
Unkown SP primer
7.0 gr of a very fine ball powder
Bullet; 160 gr SWC HP GC'd lubed bullet, BHN measured on base after removing GC at 10, .358 diameter
Cartridge OAL; 1.453"

The Buffalo Bore 158 LSWCHP GC factory load proved to be excellent running 1340 fps with an ES/SD of 23/7 fps. The psi averaged 28,500 with an ES/SD of 0/0 psi. Yes, that is correct, every pressure measured 28,500 psi! Accuracy at 50 yards was a 1.85" group.
S&W M19 velocity was 1112 fps
Ruger SS velocity was 1255 fps

Cartridge specifications:

Buffalo Bore Heavy Outdoorsman +P w/Hard Cast Keith SWC
Starline 38 SPL +P cases
Unkown SP primer
6.0 gr of a small flake powder
157 gr Hard Cast SWC bullet with a bevel base, BHN measured 15 on nose and base, .358 diameter
Cartridge OAL; 1.440"

This load also proved to be very good with excellent uniform internals. The velocity ran 1314 fps with an ES/SD of 23/7. The pressure ran 28,400 with an ES and SD of 400/200 psi. Accuracy at 50 yards was a 2.05" group.
S&W M19 velocity was 1092 fps
Ruger SS velocity was 1218 fps.

Felt recoil in both revolvers was comparable to most current 158 gr 357 magnum loads. Not sure I'd care to shoot many in any revolver smaller than the S&W M19. I definitely would restrict their use to 357 magnum revolvers, just my opinion is all.