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Thread: Compilation of Larry Gibson’s load tests

  1. #21
    Boolit Master

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    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...ists-Chapter-2

    RPM Test; a tale with three twists

    Chapter 2; Test 1 [311291 of 2/1 alloy]

    Yesterday broke clear with the promise of some warmth and little wind so I packed up the three rifles, the M43 PBL, the test ammo and the usual other necessary accoutrements for the range and set off the Tacoma Rifle and Revolver Club to conduct the first test. The primary goal of this test was to see if we could determine what causes the 311291 cast bullet to loose accuracy at a certain level. On arrival at TRRC I proceeded to set up. The benches there are very solid benchrest designed and made. It was about 46-48 degrees in the shade of the firing line but was into the 50s in the sunshine. Wind was coming out of 11 o’clock at 1-3 mph. The target distance was 103 yards. The testing was begun using the 10” twist rifle and then the 12” twist rifle and finally the 14” twist rifle. The barrels were cleaned between every two 5 shot groups with 2 foulers fired before testing was resumed. All data was collected via the M43 using pressure recording, muzzle screens and down range screens. Besides information on the rifle, load and test conditions the M43 provided data on the following information;

    Data recorded for each shot;
    • Velocity at the muzzle screens
    • Proof variance of muzzle screens
    • Time Of Flight between muzzle screens and down range screens (in front of 100 yard target)
    • The down range velocity
    • Proof variance of down range screens
    • Ballistic Coefficient
    • Peak average pressure (psi.m43)
    • Area under the pressure curve
    • Rise of pressure curve
    • Actual pressure curve

    Summary of shot data for recorded shots in the group;
    • Average velocity at muzzle screens
    • Average Proof variance of muzzle screens
    • Average TOF
    • Average down range velocity at down range screens
    • Average proof variance of down range screens
    • Average Ballistic Coefficient
    • Average peak pressure
    • Average area under the pressure curve
    • Average rise of pressure curve
    • Standard Deviation of each of the above data averages
    • The high reading of each of the above data fields
    • The low reading of each of the above data fields
    • The Extreme Spread of each of the above data fields.

    The M43 also provided the additional data on Standard Atmospheric Ballistics;
    • Bullet path from muzzle to 250 yards based on data entered and the actual BC
    • 10 mph wind deflection
    • Computed muzzle velocity (fps)
    • Energy (ft-lbs)
    • Power factor
    • Recoil of the rifle

    The testing was uneventful except for one low shot that hit one of the down range screens….ooops! It knocked a chunk of the plastic off but didn’t actually hurt anything. As the groups enlarged I did have a few rounds that hit on the edge of the window and didn’t read. This cut some of the group data to 4 shots instead of 5 and one group to 3 shots of recorded data. The first test was with the 311291 cast of 2 parts WW to 1 part linotype. This gives an alloy that with the bullets air cooled the hardness of the bullets is similar to Lyman’s #2 alloy. That has long been a standard for cast bullets. As mentioned in Chapter 1, the cases for all three rifles were fire formed to the specific rifles and “match prepped” as such. The primers used are WLRs. Two powders were used. H4895, a medium burning powder, was used with a Dacron filler in 2 gr increments from 26 gr to 38 gr. This was expected, and did, to give velocities from 1700 fps or so up through 2500 fps. The second powder tested was H4831SC, a slow burning powder, loaded in 2 gr increments from 40 to 46 gr to give from 90 to 100% loading density. The only sorting done with the 311291 bullets were to inspect them for wrinkles, voids of non fillout. None were weighed for segregation by weight. The gas checks used were Hornady’s. They were pre-seated with the Lyman GC seater on a Lyman 450 with the .311 H die and then lubed in the .310 H die. The lube used was Javelina. At no time during the test was there any indication of leading or “lube failure”.

    All told in Test 1 I fired 75 shots for record plus 10 foulers through each rifle for a total of 250 shots . After returning home it seemed a daunting task to sort through the data, measure groups and put it into some format that is easily presented on this forum. I could list all sorts of numbers in various manners but that would just get confusing. From the listed data the M43 provides on each shot plus the averages let me tell you I’ve got lots of numbers! I decided instead to put the pertinent data onto graph form. That is a “visual” way to present information and it gives valid comparisons which are easy to see and make comparisons from. It is easy enough to pull additional information of the graphs if you want it. However the little squares of the graph did not scan well so if you want some specific information don’t hesitate to ask. I couldn’t get the graph on this computer to work right so I resorted to graph paper and hand plotted them.

    Without further ado we might as well get to the meat and potatoes of the test. Graph #1 is a comparison of velocity and pressure. There was considerable consternation from some forum members that pressures would not be “exact” between the rifles. I stated that, disregarding the fact that there is always variation of pressures, even with the same load in the same rifle; the pressures need not be the same in each rifle. In fact they were not. When we graph out the velocity/pressure of the same increasing loads out of different rifles what we expect to see is a linear relationship between them. The linear lines for each (red = 10” twist, blue = 12” twist, green = 14” twist) should run fairly parallel. This gives us a valid comparison of the time pressure curves of each rifle with the other rifles time pressure curves. That’s exactly what we see in graph #1. As the pressure increases the velocity increases pretty close for the 10 and 12” twist rifles but the 14” had some problems. We also see a slight divergence as velocity increases. This is expected as the 12 and 14” twist barrels were longer than the 10” twist barrel so velocity increased more as pressure was increased. Thus the comparison between the rifles is valid as the linear progressions are close to the same. Were one of them radically different then it would be obvious a comparison wasn’t valid. However there is a slight anomaly with the 14” twist. We could pontificate as to why and probably come up with numerous reasons, most of which would probably be wrong. So let’s what the data can tell us regarding that anomaly.

    The answer to the velocity/pressure anomaly with the 14” twist is rather simple and is demonstrated in graph #2. The relationship between pressure and velocity is encompassed in internal ballistics so we merely need to look at that data showing the consistency of the loads, i.e. how consistent the powder burns. Consistency of a load (given a test string of several shots) is most often expressed in Extreme Spread of velocity and Standard Deviation of the combined averages of velocity. SD tells us what a load may do but ES tells us what that load did do. Since I am interested in what the load did do I compared the ES consistency of the loads with the pressure. In graph #2 the loads of the 10 and 12" twists all had ESs of 50 fps or less. That is pretty good consistency given the spread of the loads velocities of 1700 fps through 2500 fps. The 14” twist had some early problems with the powder burning efficiently. We see the ES for the 2nd and 3rd test loads was considerably higher than the same loads in the 10 and 12” twists. That accounts for the small anomaly in the pressure curve of the 14” twist on graph #1. The other, and perhaps more important, piece of information graph #1 gives us is the time pressure curve of the same loads in the different twists. Obviously the curves are pretty close together and linear. Thus the time pressure curve or acceleration is very close to the same for each rifle.

    Next let us consider the question; if the time pressure curves are the same then any deformation to the bullet due to acceleration will be close to the same. Thus if the deformation to each bullet is the same at the same rate of acceleration then any change to the form of the bullet will result in a change to the Ballistic Coefficient. Following that then won’t any changes to the BC be the same for each twist since any deformation of the bullet should be the same? To find the answer to that question we merely compare the BCs of the 3 different twists as the velocity increases (hence the acceleration increases and deformation of the bullet increases). Graph #3 provides the comparison of the BCs vs the velocities of each load in each twist. Let us remember that the BC in this case is a measured BC from the actual flight of the bullets not a guestimated one from some chart. These actual BCs measured the bullets ability to fly through the air efficiently. The higher the BC the less deformed and more stabilized the bullet was. It is readily apparent that the BCs stayed pretty much the same for all three twists during acceleration at all velocities and pressures. It is interesting to note that the BCs of the bullets from the 10” twist retained the highest BC at the highest velocity (acceleration). This is just the opposite what it would be as believed by some on this forum. The BCs from the bullets from all three twists stayed very close together and linear across the wide spectrum of velocity (acceleration) from 1700 to 2500 fps which obviously shows the acceleration remained constant regardless of the twist of the barrel.

    So this is what we now know now about the same loads in the 3 different twists; the time pressure curve is the same, the acceleration is the same and the BCs remain the same. Let’s now take a look at the results on target. After all what we are looking at in conducting this test is the accuracy at higher velocity and why that accuracy goes bad. Graph #4 shows us the group sizes vs pressure. Whoa there! Something is amiss….if the time pressure curves are the same, the acceleration the same and the BCs are the same; then if the groups get larger as we increase velocity shouldn’t the groups get larger by proportionally the same amount? [Note; by “proportional amount” is an amount to compare the accuracy of each twist to each other. The proportional amount of increase is found by dividing the increased group size by the smallest group with each rifle.] However, what we see is that the groups do not get proportionally larger as velocity increases. The inaccuracy of the 10” twist increases 5.38 while the inaccuracy of the 12” twist increases 3.14 and 14” twist increases 2.08. Hmmmmmm……pressure curve is the same, deformation of the bullet from acceleration is the same then why doesn’t inaccuracy increase the same? Especially since graph #4 shows the group size vs pressure. But wait…there’s more (sorry, just couldn’t resist!). Doesn’t every one say that it is pressure that destroys accuracy? We do see that accuracy with all three twists is decreasing with the increase of pressure. If pressure was the only reason for the decrease in inaccuracy then the inaccuracy should be proportional and it isn’t. We also see inaccuracy increases much more with the 10” twist than either the 12 or 14” twists. We also see the 12” twist’s inaccuracy to increase more rapidly than the 14”s inaccuracy. Again, if it was pressure that increased the inaccuracy then why doesn’t the inaccuracy of all three twists increase equally as the pressure increases? It seems there is something other than pressure adversely affecting accuracy and to a much greater extent.

    Okay, let’s look at it one more way just to be fair. Graph #5 compares accuracy to velocity. Something wrong here again….that dreadful 10” twist is once again being more inaccurate by a greater proportional amount than either the 12 or 14” twists. How can this be? We know the acceleration is the same; the BCs are the same so the deformation of the bullet is the same yet the 10” twists inaccuracy is disproportional to the 12 and 14” twists. It should be the same amount of inaccuracy, right? The lines for each twist should be linear right? Yet the proportional inaccuracy are not the same between the twists nor are the lines linear. Have we missed something? Is there another game afoot? We’ve a good handle on the internal ballistics. We know about the terminal ballistics as the groups are self revealing. But have we really looked hard at the external ballistics (the bullets flight)? We know the bullets are stable, we know the BCs are getting smaller telling us there is some deformation from the acceleration. We know the 10” twist had the highest BC at the highest pressure and velocity so why isn’t it as accurate as the 12 and 14” twists?

    Let us look at graph #6. It is a comparison of group sizes vs RPM. Note the very, very obvious adverse affect that the increasing RPM has on the accuracy of the 10” twist. That red line really climbs up there! Also note that area of RPM where the majority of accurate groups fall; it is in or below the RPM threshold. Also note that in or at the top end of the RPM threshold is where accuracy begins to deteriorate.

    The tests with H4831SC seemed to be headed the same way but were inconclusive as top velocity was only 2287 fps with 100% loading density. The 10” twist velocity was 1928 fps through 2287 fps with groups running from 2.4” to 3.3”. RPM was 138,900 to 164,700. Conversely the 14” twist went from 1906 fps to 2265 fps. Groups ran .95” to 2.2”. RPM was 98,000 to 116,600. The highest peak pressure was 39,600 psi.M43. Thus I couldn’t get into a high enough pressure/RPM range with all three twists to make any comparison.

    I am not going to conclude that there is an RPM threshold as the test is not complete. I shall wait until I conclude the test before giving a firm conclusion.

    Chapter 3 will be to see how I can improve on and perhaps push the threshold with 311291 in all 3 twists. I have some cast of linotype (that’s pretty hard stuff). I have them weighed to a +/- ½ gr. I weighed them “dressed” for summer (that’s with just the GC on, not fully “dressed” with lube too). I plan on using Varget and RL15. Probably won’t get around to testing those until May.

    Larry Gibson

  2. #22
    Boolit Master

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    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...1A-gas-systems

    Your M1A has a completely different gas system than the M1 Rifle.

    The M1A gas system is designed to and will cut off gas from the gas port as soon as the gas piston starts moving rearward. The amount of pressure at the gas port required for function is quite low. Using a medium burning powder such a 4895 will give reliable functioning from loads with chamber pressures of 20,000 psi upwards of 62,000 psi.

    M118 Match with the 174 gr FMJ has been loaded with ball powders (WCCs) and extruded powder (mostly IMR4895).
    M118SB was loaded with ball powder (WCC).
    M852 with the 168 MK was loaded with IMR4895.
    M118LR with the 175 MK has been loaded with IMR4064, RL15 and IMR4895.

    M61 AP, M59 and M80 Ball and the M62 Tracer have always been loaded with ball powder (WCC).

    As mentioned you'll want to stay away from the "Light Magnum" or "Extended Range" type of cartridges and not use slower burning powders at 7,62 or 308W level MAPs. The reason is not because the action or gas system can not handle the pressures (within .308W MAP level) but because the time/pressure curve is too slow for proper functioning. With a proper time/pressure curve the chamber pressure will drop allowing the case to contract and release it's grip on the chamber walls as the bolt begins opening. Too slow a time/pressure curve and the case is still gripping the chamber when primary extraction starts. that can cause damage to the oprod cam surface, bend or break the oprod, damage the bolt or cause the extractor to pop out.

    M118SB and M118LR are loaded to 61,000 to 64,000 psi ( have measured the pressures not guestimated) but have a time/pressure curve still suitable for the M14/M1A gas system. That is the ammo that has been used in the M14 SDMR, M24 and M40 sniper rifles the last 15+ years.

    Since 1972 I have used H4895, AA2230 and H335 powders with quite successful loads in M14s and M1As with jacketed bullets weighing 100 to 180 gr. With cast bullets I favor 4895 (any flavor) with a Dacron filler under 164 to 210 gr at 1850 to 2400 fps (depending on barrel twist).

  3. #23
    Boolit Master

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    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...er-curve-tests

    45-70 BP Time/Pressure Curves (Traces)

    Before I post the Time/Pressure Curves (TPCs) let me briefly discuss/explain what we will see. Savvy Jack, in his posts, mentions the anomalies in the TCPs. What you see there is far more common than thought, not only with strain gauge measurements but with oscilloscopes and with piezo-transducer TPCs.

    Ever wonder why you almost always, with any published pressure data, only see the “average” and almost never see any actual TPCs from that data? The answer is it would scare the public to death and no one would buy their products. We all like to think all measure TOCs are nice and smooth going up and coming down just like these;

    Attachment 290444

    Well, I’m here to tell you that those types of TPCs do happen they are not all like those. Some are very, very jagged, ragged, uneven or what ever you want to call them. In particular, lower pressure load TPCs are subject to numerous irregularities based on the type of test firearm, the thickness of the barrel over the camber and the Time Of Rise (TOR and the peak psi generated. First time I tested some Winchester and Remington 38 SPL factory WC it though everything went haywire because the TPCs looked like the teeth on a course saw blade. I then tested some Winchester 158 gr LHP +P and got nice smooth TPCs. I am no longer surprised at the anomalies that can be seen. It’s why I always have some “reference” ammunition with me when testing to double check if necessary.

    The appearance of “noise” in the TPCs can be generated by many things. Savvy Jack mentions what caused the noise in his TPCs. The chambering of a round, the action closing, barrel whip, burning of powder outside the muzzle, the firearm recoiling, etc. can all seemingly cause “noise” in the TCPs along with low pressure giving inconsistent “stretch” in the barrel steel over the chamber.

    So, with that, please don’t get too exited by what the TPCs look like. It’s why the analyzing of the other pressure test data is important in comparison. I have included that test data with each TPC posted. I’m going to post here a menagerie of tests including smokeless and duplex loads along with BP loads.

    First let’s take a look at some old original REM-UPC cartridges. The charge under the bullet was a compressed 70 gr charge of BP. The granules were smaller than Goex fffg BP. We see the average pressure was 22,000.

    BTW; the black “tick mark” at the end of the TPC is muzzle exit.

    Attachment 290445

    A load I developed years ago for hunting with my trapdoor target/sporter was with a commercial cast [Liberty bullets…no longer in business] bullet with a wide FP meplat of 20-1 alloy. I bought them “as cast” at .461 diameter and hand lubed them with my beeswax/olive oil lube. It is a duplex load [7 gr 4759/52 gr Goex Cartridge] and under that 405 gr bullet it generated an average pressure of 20,900 psi. As we see the accuracy at 100 yards was excellent. That test was done in 2011. The TPCs look a bit flatter but that was I hadn’t yet changed from a 2 millisecond time to a 4 milliseconds time.

    Attachment 290446

    Another commercial cast bullet (Desperado Cast Bullets) of 415 gr cast of 20-1 alloy over 70 gr of Goex Cartridge. The average pressure was 19,100 psi.

    Attachment 290447

    The Lee 405 HB over 70 gr of Goex Cartridge [my 1873 45-70 service rifle duplication load]. The average pressure was 17,500 psi.

    Attachment 290448

    The Lee 405HB over 70 gr of Goex Superfine. Superfine was a transitional powder available between Dupont discontinuing and Goex using that trade name. Superfine has granuals smaller than those of current Goex ffffg powder. It also gives pressures in ffffg BP range. A previous test of 70 gr Superfine gave an average pressure of 24,600 psi. This is a duplex load with 7 gr 4759 under 54 gr Superfine gave an average pressure of 25,000.

    Attachment 290449

    A duplex load under the 405HB bullet with 7 gr 4759 under 54 gr Goex Cartridge gave an average pressure of 20,400 psi. This is my most used M1873 service rifle 45-70 load. It is quite clean shooting and many, many rounds can be fired with little to no fouling. No wiping of the bore is needed and neither is a blow tube.

    Attachment 290450

    My 45-55 Carbine load for use in my M1873 carbine (H&R) is also a duplex load using 5 gr 4759 under 49 gr Goex Cartridge with the 405HB bullet. The average pressure rans 17,700 psi.

    Attachment 290451

    I plan to put a strain gauge on my H&R Officers Model which has thinner barrel steel over the chamber. Perhaps that will give me smoother TPCs(?). Also with Goex being out of business I will perhaps pick up some other brand of BP?

  4. #24
    Boolit Master

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    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...)-test-results

    Pressure Question: GC vs PB original thread by TCLewis
    A couple months ago TCLewis started this thread; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Question-GC-PB where upon he asked the following;
    “I am addressing this to Larry Gibson since he is the only one here that has pressure measuring equipment (that I know of).

    Do you get any difference in pressure between gas checked and plain based boolits in the same loading?”

    I responded with: “That's a good question. I've not made that comparison. I could check my records but I hesitate to post any speculation based on comparing the pressure tests of different bullets probably conducted at different time/dates. The variables would be there and I'd get the usual raft of manure from the usual critics here.

    However, if someone has a mould with different cavities that casts the same bullet for use with and without a GC I could conduct a test. All that's needed would be a quantity of each cast of the same alloy. I would size, GC the ones for GCs and lube them for the test. Fifty of each would be sufficient for sighters/foulers and 3 ten shot test strings of each. Any takers?”

    In short order Time Killer responded with this post; “ Larry I have one that I believe you are very familiar with the NOE 310-165-FN-H3 (30XCB). Its a 2 banger one gas check one plain base. If it will work how would you like them cast. I can do soft lead + tin for fill out, 50/50 soft lead / wheel weight + tin for fill out, or Wheel weight + tin if needed for fill out. Air cooled or water dropped let me know your preference. It will take me a few days to cast them as I have a busy work week but I would be happy to help out for the test.”

    After a PM or two it was agreed that Time Killer would cast some of the XCBs, with and without G, and get them off to me. Time to for him to cast he bullets and mail to me, cogitating how to conduct the test, prepare the bullets and load them and a hunting trip (successful) have all passed and I am presenting the test results here. I decided to start a new thread as the other is already 3 pages long.

    With the bullets Time Killer sent an explanation; he cast the bullets of COWW alloy + a little more than 2% tin added. The bullets were cast in an NOE 2 cavity mould for the 310-165-FN “XCB” bullet. One cavity gave bullets with a GC shank and the other was a PB XCB bullet. Other than the GC/PB the bullets were identical.

    We assume a PB bullet of the same design will be heavier than the GC’d version because that’s what everyone has said for as long as I can remember. This is a prime example of why we should not assume as there is always some devil on the details. Picking 10 bullets of each style, GC and PB, and weighing them I found the GC’d bullets average weight was 163.7 gr. The PB’d XCBs averaged 166.4 gr. So far the assumption was correct……however, that is not the way we shoot them. We shoot them fully dressed.. both bullets mic’d out at .311 on the drive bands so I lubed both styles in a Lyman 450 using a .311 H&I and White Label 2500+ lube.. Hornady GCs were seated onto the GC XCBs. The fully dressed weight for the GC’d XCBs was 170.5 gr. The PB’d bullets, fully dressed, came in lighter at 168.4 gr.

    I decided a fair, comprehensive and extensive test would be to test both bullets in 3 different cartridges, with 3 different rifles using 3 different burning rate powders (Unique, 2400, RL7) with equal loads of each powder in each cartridge. That amounted, using 10 shot test strings, to 180 test rounds plus foulers and sighters. I got everything together and waited for a front to move through for a decent test day. Yesterday I spent the day at the range and completed the testing. Here is the results.

    Three cartridges were used; the 30-30 tested in a 21” Contender Carbine barrel, the 308W tested in a 24” barreled test rifle and the 30-06 tested in a similar 24” barreled test rifle. All 3 test barrels had a strain gauge affixed over the chamber at the SAAMI prescribed location for transducer psi measurement. The strain gauges are connected to the Oehler M43 PBL system which measures the psi. All 3 test rifles have been “calibrated” using factory “reference” ammunition. After setting up the M43 at the range it does it’s own “system check” and then was tested with my standard 170 gr load in the 30.30. The results of that test were consistent with what is expected of that ammunition so I began testing. The weather was fair with temps running 70 – 75 degrees, barometric pressure remained steady at 29.98 +/- and the humidity remained steady at 25% +/-.

    Test ammunition; WLR primers were used throughout. The same lot of cases was used for each cartridge; FC cases in the 30-30, LC Match in the .308W and Winchester cases used in the 30-06. A Lyman .31 M-dies was used to expand the necks for the .311 sized bullets. No attempt was made to work up an “accuracy load”. Each load was selected based on velocity levels that are usually used for cast bullets of 165 – 170 gr respective of each powder. The bullets were seated to just touch the leade of each chamber. No wad or filler were used. Each cartridge was loaded into the rifle with the powder positioned at the rear of the case. With the Contender the barrel was pointed up as the action was closed. With the 308W and 30-06 bolt action test rifles the SAAMI “twist” loading technique was used.

    The loads were;
    30-30
    Unique; 7 gr
    2400: 14 gr
    RL7; 19 gr

    308W;
    Unique; 10 gr
    2400: 16 gr
    RL7: 23 gr

    30-06:
    Unique; 12 gr
    2400; 18 gr
    RL7; 25 gr

    I graphed out the psi results with a chart for each powder showing all 3 cartridge results. The GC’d XCBs are the blue column and the PB’d XCBs are the red column. The psi graph is charted on the left running from 0 psi to 32,000 psi. In the base of each column is the actual measured average psi. The blue column for the 30-30 on the Unique chart has 21.4 which means the measured average psi for the 7 gr load was 21,400 psi.

    Attachment 229135Attachment 229136Attachment 229137


    Velocities (the M43 gives a corrected velocity to the muzzle) in fps;
    30-30
    Unique; GC-1181, PB-1194
    2400; GC-1688, PB-1701
    RL7; GC-1768, PB-1732

    308W
    Unique; GC-1384, PB-1432
    2400; GC-1726, PB-1718
    RL7; GC-1811, PB-1792

    30-06
    Unique; GC-1455, PB-1501
    2400; GC-1709, PB-1691
    RL7; GC-1815, PB-1777

    Cartridge

    Pressure ES/SD information listed by;

    Powder; velocity - GC = ES/SD [psi =ES/SD] PB = ES/SD [psi =ES/SD]
    Velocity is in fps.
    A psi figure of "25" would be 2,500 psi.

    30-30
    Unique; GC = 43/13 [25/10] PB = 24/14 [5/3]
    2400; GC = 57/17 [49/14] PB = 28/11 [52/21]
    RL7; GC = 71/24 [71/21] PB = 94/38 [42/21]

    308W
    Unique; GC = 47/13 [15/5] PB = 38/10 [15/6]
    2400; GC = 27/9 [24/9] PB = 18/7 [9/4]
    RL7; GC = 33/11 [36/12] PB = 29/11 [18/8]

    30-06
    Unique; GC = 54/20 [24/8] PB = 17/7 [14/6]
    2400; GC = 14/4 [25/6] PB = 37/13 [21/9]
    RL7; GC = 38/11 [44/15] PB = 24/9 [5/3]

    As to accuracy; while I didn't make any attempt to work or pick an accuracy load for any of the 3 rifles I did shoot for group at 100 yards. Any direct comparison of accuracy would be meaningless as such. However, suffice to say, each rifle performed well within it's own accuracy capability. All 3 powders performed well with the GC XCB bullets. The .308W rifle gave the best group ever shot with cast in it with the 2400 load. All 9 shots tested went into a ragged 3/4" hole.

    Of the 30 XCB PB'd bullets only the Unique load in each cartridge gave any semblance of accuracy and then it was only fair in the 30-30 and poor in the 308W and 30-06. The 30 XCB PB'd bullet loads with 2400 and RL7 gave abysmal accuracy with few hits on the target....... judging by the cylinder bore size pattern impact around the target on the berm behind. Severe leading occurred with those loads also resulting in cleaning prior to the next test.

    In comparing the psi differences I see very little. In 6 of the 9 tests the GC’d XCB gave slightly higher psi. In 3 of the 9 tests the PB’d XCB gave slightly higher psi. The psi variation in 8 of the tests falls well within the test to test variation that would be expected and the 9th test is border line within any test to test variation.

    Based on these test results I see no reason to give any thought as to the use of a GC or not raising pressures. However, there still could be a difference based on similar weight bullets of different design based on bearing surface. That remains to be tested.


    Larry Gibson

  5. #25
    Boolit Master

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    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...keted-pressure

    Cast vs Jacketed Pressure

    A couple examples;

    357 Magnum
    Winchester brass cases
    WSP primers
    7 gr Alliant Unique
    Cast bullet alloy; COWW + 2% tin AC'd, BHN 13-14
    All bullets seat to crimp groove with medium crimp
    SAAMI MAP; 35,000 psi

    Speer 158 SP; 32,500 psi
    Lee TL358-158-SWC seated to 1st lube groove; 33,000 psi
    Lee TL358-158-SWC seated to 2nd lube groove; 29,600 psi
    Lyman 357156 seated to 1st crimp groove; 32,200 psi

    44 Magnum
    Winchester brass cases
    WLP primers
    21.2 gr Alliant 2400
    Cast bullet alloy; COWW + 2% tin AC'd, BHN 13-14
    All bullets seat to crimp groove with medium crimp
    SAAMI MAP; 36,000 psi

    Hornady 240 XTP; 38,400 psi
    Laser Cast 240 SWC; 35,000 psi
    Lyman 429244 258 gr; 36,300 psi
    Lyman 429360 243 gr; 36,400 psi

    With 9.5 gr Alliant Unique

    Hornady 240 XTP; 29,200 psi
    Laser Cast 240 SWC; 25,900 psi
    Lyman 429244 258 gr; 26,700 psi
    Lyman 429360 243 gr; 26,000 psi
    Lee TL430-240-SWC; seated to 1st lube groove; 28,300 psi

    Note; A recent test of 3 consecutive 10 shot groups of the same load (21 gr Alliant 2400 under the RCBS 44-250-K) gave a 2,100 psi test to test variation of the average pressure. That is normal and within expected test to test variation. In the 357 magnum one cast bullet load exceeded the jacketed bullet pressure. The Lee bullet is seated deeper than the jacketed. In the 44 Magnum all the cast bullets gave less psi than the jacketed but still were very close to each other. Were I to run the tests again the results may very well be different considering the variables previously mentioned along with test to test variation and lot to lot variation of components. Probably why SAAMI lists not only the MAP but also acceptable levels of pressure; the Maximum Probable Lot Mean (MPLM) and the Maximum Probable Sample mean (MPSM) for any lot of loaded ammunition. Listed pressures by SAAMI, CIP, any manual or those arrived at by a computer program are not "finite".

    Thus in comparing psi from jacketed bullets compared to equal weight cast bullets listed in any publication one must be aware of the probable test to test variation. Not knowing how many tests the psi results listed in a manual are based on making a comparison is simply guess work. As I recall, in every manual I have read over the last 50+ years they have all stated not to assume a maximum listed load is "safe". They all state to work up to those loads and back off if any sign of excessive pressure arises. That is excellent advice and should be adhered too.....

  6. #26
    Boolit Master

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    38 Special Seating Depth and Pressures

    Pressure tested the 5.1 gr Blue Dot and 7.1 gr 2400 loads under the RCBS 35-200-FN today. Both gave very low pressure and velocity from the 7/8" Contender barrel. Accuracy for both loads (10 shot test each) was right at 2" at 50 yards......about as good as I can do with the 1.5X scope on the Contender.

    Cartridge; 38 SPL (R-P)
    Primer; WSP
    Powder; Blue Dot (Alliant) 5.1 gr
    Bullet; RCBS 35-200-FN, COWWs +2% tin AC'd, Sized .358 lubed with 2500+
    Cartridge OAL; 1.64"
    Velocity (muzzle); 798 fps, ES 59 fps & SD 42 FPS
    PSI (M43); 11,500


    Cartridge; 38 SPL (R-P)
    Primer; WSP
    Powder; 2400 (Alliant) 7.1 gr
    Bullet; RCBS 35-200-FN, COWWs +2% tin AC'd, Sized .358 lubed with 2500+
    Cartridge OAL; 1.64"
    Velocity (muzzle); 785 fps, ES 73 fps & SD 33 FPS
    PSI (M43); 10,700

  7. #27
    Boolit Master

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    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-Dacron-Filler

    30-30, 2400 & a Dacron filler

    There have been several discussions regarding whether a dacron filler is “needed” with powders such as 2400, 4227, 4759, 5744 or 4198 under cast bullets in .30/.31 cal rifles. Some say the filler is not needed, some say it is and some even say it is dangerous due to pressure spikes.

    My contention, based on considerable testing of loads with and without fillers, is that with light to medium weight cast bullets in the .30/.31 cal a dacron filler is beneficial by giving better consistent ignition and excellent accuracy. Whether or not the dacron filler is beneficial to you is your choice. I’ve not seen any indication of pressure spikes or other potentially dangerous problems associated with the use of a dacron filler during this testing or during the pressure testing of many test loads in different cartridges. I hadn’t used 2400 in CF rifle loads for quite a while so with the acquisition of a jug of Alliant 2400 I thought I’d work with it to develop a load for use with the GB C312-150-WFN in the 30-30 for use in my 21” Contender Barrel and in my 2 M94s.

    The test bullets are cast in a Lee GB 6 cavity mould of WW + 2% tin alloy. They were inspected/selected for visual defects only, .014 aluminum GCs seated and then sized and lubed with Javelina in a .314 H die (as cast diameter). I then sized them at .311 in a Lee push through sizer.

    The 30-30 cases were mixed manufacture with the flash holes reamed and were sized in a RCBS X-die. My 21” Contender test rifle 30-30 barrel is very sensitive to sizing and FTF is frequent if cases are not FL sized.

    CCI 200 primers were used.

    Test rifle was a Contender Carbine with a 10" twist 21" barrel. Scope was a 4X Weaver K4.

    A M43 Oehler PBL was used to measure velocity and psi(M43). Start screen was 15’ from the muzzle and the M43 corrects the FPS to muzzle. Test strings were 10 shots at 100 yards.

    Initial test loads were from 14 to 18 gr of 2400 in 1 gr increments without the dacron filler. The load at 16 gr proven the most accurate and quite consistent with the rifle loaded level on the bench. The average velocity was 1815 fps with a SD of 25 fps and an ES of 79 fps. The psi(M43) was 28,000 with a SD of 2,900 and an ES of 9,300. Group was 1.8”.

    The 16 gr load without the dacron filler was then tested for powder position sensitivity by shooting a test string with the muzzle pointed down after loading and gently brought back to level to fire thus keeping the powder in the front of the case against the bullet. The average velocity was 1781 fps with the SD at 12 fps and the ES at 28 fps. The psi(M43) was 26,000 with the SD at 7000 and the ES at 1,900. Group size was 1.7” with the center of the group 1.75” lower.

    Continuing the powder sensitivity test the muzzle was raised and then gently lowered to level for testing thus putting the powder at the back of the case against the primer. The average velocity was 1861 fps with the SD at 16 fps and the ES at 38 fps. The psi(M43) was 33,800 with the SD at 1,100 and the ES at 3,000. The group size was 1.9 and was 1.8” higher.

    We see an obvious indication of powder position sensitivity. Positioning the powder forward and backward in the case both produced much more consistent ignition giving more uniform velocity and psi than with the powder just "level" in the case. While the group sized were relatively the same there was considerable vertical string giving a total group of all 3 groups of 4.82”. Thus we see a vertical stringing problem with accuracy depending on how consistently the rifle is shouldered and fired. On a target range when bench shooting this can easily be controlled and the vertical stringing alleviated. However, for me a potential 4.75 moa vertical stringing group in a field shooting environment where “positioning” of the powder prior to shooting is not practical is….well…just not practical.

    Thus I proceeded to test the 2400 loads with a dacron filler. Previous experience dictated that an accuracy load with the dacron filler would probably be at a slightly lower velocity and with a lesser powder charge. I loaded 10 shot test strings of 13.5 gr to 15.5 gr of the Alliant 2400 and used a ½ - ¾ gr dacron filler.

    The accuracy load proved to be 14.5 gr of 2400 with the dacron filler. The same cases and primers were used in this test. The average velocity was 1722 fps with an SD at 12 fps and the ES at 42 fps. The psi(M43) was 28,700 with the SD at 1,200 and the ES at 3,400. The 10 shot group was 1.4”.

    No need to test powder position sensitivity as the powder is held in position against the primer by the dacron filler regardless of the rifles held position prior to shouldering and firing. Subsequent further testing of this load to 200 yards shows excellent accuracy. This is just what I wanted for this bullet in the 30-30. This load should be quite deadly on small to medium/small varmints and game let alone deadly on rocks, sticks, dirt clods and cow pies.

    Note in M43 data printout the time/pressure traces and the consistency of the “Area” and Rise” data; we can see there is absolutely no indication of “pressure spiking”. Those are pretty much “picture perfect” traces. Also note that I often trace through the bullet holes in the target onto the data sheet for a group record.

    As stated previously the choice to use or not use the dacron filler is yours. For me, I use the dacron filler with this and many other loads. I do not always use the dacron filler and list my criteria in the “Filler” sticky listed above in this forum.

    This test demonstrates the dacron filler works when used as directed/intended and is indeed very beneficial to increasing ignition consistency where ignition is inconsistent because of powder position sensitivity with certain powder/bullet combinations and thus increases accuracy.

    I’m also convinced, based on more and more testing, that the dacron filler is also beneficial in decreasing the possibility of pressure spikes or other dangerous phenomenon when used correctly with appropriate powders. This test is indicative of the same results obtained when 4227, 4759, 5744 and 4198 are used with medium range loads , especially with the lighter to middle weight bullets for the cartridge in question. I highly recommend the dacron filler be used with those powders when lighter to middle weight cast bullets for the cartridge are used, especially in the medium velcocity range under 1900 fps.

    Larry Gibson

  8. #28
    Boolit Master

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    Drilled Flash Hole Test; 44 Magnum and 45 Colt

    Completed the test yesterday 29 April, 2019. Test firearm was a Contender with a 8.4” barrel in 44 Magnum and a 10” barrel in 45 Colt. A 2.5X scope is on the Contender. All measured data except group size (ctc widest shots) was obtained via the Oehler M43 PBL. I had prepared 10 cases, as previously posted, for each test string; 10 with standard flash holes and 10 with the flash holes drilled out with a #28 drill. Winchester WLPs were used in all cases for both cartridges.

    Testing was conducted from the bench with a Hoppe’s Pistol Rest with the target at 50 yards.
    Temperature was 80 degrees.
    Humidity was 30%
    Barometric Pressure was 29.63

    44 Magnum;
    Bullet was a 429360 cast of COWW +2% tin, AC’d and aged 10+ days before sizing .430 and lubed with BAC.
    Cases were Remington R-Ps sized and loaded in RCBS dies.
    Powder charge; 22 gr of Alliant 2400
    OAL; 1.638

    With Standard flash holes;
    Velocity; 1622 fps (muzzle)
    SD/ES; 13/41 fps
    Pressure; 35,800 psi(M43)
    Pressure SD/ES; 500/1,700 psi
    Group; 3.1”

    With flash holes drilled;
    Velocity; 1599 fps (muzzle)
    SD/ES; 17/47 fps
    Pressure; 34,500 psi(M43)
    Pressure SD/ES; 1,400/3.900 psi
    Group; 3.2”

    45 Colt:
    Bullet was a 452-230-TC cast of COWW +2% tin, AC’d and aged 10+ days before sizing .454 and lubed with BAC.
    Cases were CBC 45 Colt sized in RCBS steel FL sizer and loaded in Hornady dies.
    Powder charge; 7.3 gr 700X
    OAL; 1.598”

    With Standard flash holes;
    Velocity; 1060 fps (muzzle)
    SD/ES; 7/23 fps
    Pressure; 16,300 psi(M43)
    Pressure SD/ES; 400/1,500 psi
    Group; 2.9”

    With flash holes drilled;
    Velocity; 1059 fps (muzzle)
    SD/ES; 4/15 fps
    Pressure; 16,000 psi(M43)
    Pressure SD/ES; 400/1,100 psi
    Group; 3.15”

    From the measured data we see there is essentially no difference. Again the sky did not fall, California did not slide off into the Pacific and still no Trump collusion with Russians……

    Here’s the fired primers…..no difference in “flattening”…….

    Attachment 240877

  9. #29
    Boolit Master

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    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...oles-dangerous

    Is drilling out flash holes dangerous?
    Drilled Flash Hole High Pressure Test; 308W

    In the past I have posted this explanation of why I drill out flash holes for use with low end reduced loads.

    “I shoot many thousands of squib loads in various calibers but mostly in .30s. Many of these are rimless cartridges; 30-06, .308, .308 CBC, 7.65, 7.62x39 etc. The squib loads I shoot most often is a Lee 314-90-SWC-TL over 2.7 to 3.2 gr of Bullseye depending on the cartridge. Velocity is around 800 – 875 fps. I found a long time ago the shoulders do in fact get set back with light loads such as those. With many cast loads that use normal weight bullets in the 1600 to 2000 fps range there was little setback. It basically is a matter of the psi the load generates. It takes roughly 7,000 psi (depends on thickness and hardness of the brass along with how much the case needs to reach the chamber walls.

    Measurements of shoulder set back or increase are easily taken with a Stoney Point tool. There have been basically the two theories regarding the cause; the firing pin blow theory and the primer theory. I ran the same tests with a fire formed case and inert primers; headspace was not changed. I then used the same fire formed case with live primers. In as little as two firings there was a measurable decrease in headspace. After five live primers the fired primer was noticeably backed out after firing. NOTE: this increase in headspace was with case taking LR primers. I never experience the problem with the .222 Rem or the 5.56 NATO.

    Using #d drills I gradually increased the flash hole diameter with a progressively larger drill. Using a different fire formed case with each larger drill and firing 5 primers I then measured the headspace before firing and after. As the size of the flash hole increased the headspace decrease lessoned. With a # 29 drill I no longer got any decrease in headspace. I dedicated five .308 cases and five 30-06 cases that were well fire formed to their respective rifles chambers and drilled the flash holes with the #29 drill. Over the next few days I fired 50 shots with each case. There was an indoor 50” range where I was stationed so it wasn’t all that bad. After the 50 firings there was negligible change in headspace with any of the five cases of each cartridge. The results of my test firmly demonstrated to me that it was the force of the primer explosion that drove the case forward and set back the shoulder. The squib load does not have the pressure to expand the case out to fit the chamber. By drilling out the flash hole the force of the explosion mostly went directly into the case as there is little rim left to contain it. Two other side benefits that were unforeseen; the extreme spread and standard deviations of the velocity readings improved and the case position sensitivity of the small charge was greatly reduced.

    As a result of the above tests I dedicated fire formed cases for squib loads for each rifle in rimless cases and drill out the flash holes. I have fired them many, many times now with no further change in headspace. Besides the squib load mentioned I also use 311631 (# may be wrong but it’s the 118 gr GC 32-20 bullet) with Unique in the above cartridges loaded to 1400 fps or so for a little more powerful small game load. The flash hole drilled cases work just fine for those. I now use the flash ole drilled cases for all my rimless cartridges with squib and really light loads.

    Further pressure testing in the .308W the last few years indicated that loads with a psi above 12,000 will obdurate sufficiently to prevent the primer from driving the case forward thus setting the shoulder back.”

    Since then seems like every time the subject comes up we get admonitions not to do so because it is very “dangerous” should the cases with such drilled out flash holes be used for a “regular” load. Having Previously tested such cases with “regular cast bullets loads creating 28 – 30,000 psi (measured via an Oehler M43 PBL) I have endeavored to ascertain the danger of loading such to the psi of “regular” loads at 55,000 +/- psi.

    I had enough cases LC 92 7.62 NATO (308W) cases I was going drill out the flash holes to run a series of 10 tests using five 9 shot tests and five 8 shot tests. I would run a test with the flash holes as they were (.061”) and then increase them in size incrementally to .140”. That is the maximum size to enlarge the flash hole while still retaining enough of a shelf for the primer anvil legs to rest on. I used numbered (#) drills alternately from #44 up through #28 to enlarge the flash holes.

    Here we see the cases with the flash holes drilled from “as issued” on the left to #28 drilled on the right;

    Attachment 237040

    The cases were FL sized in a RCBS X-die the loaded with pull down M80 bullets (147 gr FMJBT) ove 43 gr of IMR 4895 with WLR primers. The loads were tested on 2/25/2019 in my test rifle with a 24” barrel. The Oehler M43 PBL was used to measure velocity, pressure, etc. I could see no difference in the appearance of the primers after firing. Have a look for yourself;

    Attachment 237041

    Here is a compilation of all the data measured during the test. I’ll be darned if I can see any meaningful difference between the first load with “regular” .061” flash holes and the last test with .140”.

    Attachment 237042

    Throughout the test the sky did not fall, Humpty did not fall off the wall, the chicken made it across the road and no collusion between Trump and the Russians was found………and I’m still alive and the rifle did not blow up……… It appears, based on actual test results, using cases with drilled out flash holes might not be as “dangerous” as some thought………

  10. #30
    Boolit Master

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    RCBS X-DIES: A TEST

    By Larry M. Gibson


    Surprisingly, there was little fanfare with the introduction of RCBS’s X-Dies. All I saw were small blurbs in the trade magazines and mention of them in Rick Jamison’s Shooting Times column. Advertised to reduce or eliminate case stretch the question is; do they? My real interest was: Will they reduce case stretch, i.e. increase case life, of 7.62 NATO (that’s .308 WIN to you non-mil types) cases fired in M14/M1A’s?

    The number of reloadings per case for M14/M1A’s is probably the worst of any rifle/cartridge combination short of the .303 Lee Enfield family. Incipient head separation is the reason for case loss. My experience with rack grade M14/M1A’s is five good firings per case with the sixth being a “throwaway”. This is only if the brass was fired in a bolt gun or M14/M1A to begin with. A match M14/M1A with a tight “match” chamber may get 1-2 more firings but more often not. If surplus once fired brass is used the first firing was more than likely done in a machine gun and only 1-2 reloadings/firings are possible before head separation.

    Most head separations can be identified as a speckled crack forming around the case just ahead of the web at the expansion ring. This crack is sometimes quite obvious. Then on some cases the head will separate from the case on ejection. Many times both parts of the separated case are ejected. But sometimes only the head is ejected leaving the front half of the case in the chamber. The rifle picks up the next round attempting to chamber it and things get jammed up. Not good! The other question here; is there gas cutting damage to the chamber?

    What causes this incipient head separation to happen? Simply put, on firing, the case expands to grip the chamber walls sealing off the gas pressure. When the bullet leaves the barrel pressures are reduced and the case contracts (not to its original dimensions) releasing it’s grip on the chamber walls and allowing extraction. However, it appears that the M14/M1A begins extraction prior to the pressure dropping completely. The cases do not contract as much as they would if fired in a bolt action for instance. Compounding the problem is the mil-specs for military chambers are somewhat generous in their diameter dimension to allow for functional reliability during combat conditions. When full-length resizing (necessary for M14/M1A) case walls are squeezed in first. This pushes the shoulder forward. The shoulder is then set back by the FL die and the brass flows forward into and elongating the neck. This increases the case length on each resizing considerably. Also, since the brass at the expansion ring expanded and was squeezed in and forward during resizing the case gets progressively thinner in that specific area. The result is, eventually, a head separation at that thinning location. Most mil-spec (US) chambers allow for a maximum case length of about 2.045”. I, like most M14/M1A users, have found trimming unnecessary. Incipient case head separation will occur, and cases discarded, before maximum case length is reached and trimming is necessary.

    Are these RCBS X-Dies a cure for this? I decided to use my rack grade M1A to put them to the test. The issue GI barrel has quite a generous mil-spec chamber with headspace being within tolerance. This usually results in the fifth firing being the “throwaway” for brass in this rifle. It has untold thousands of rounds through it, many rapid fire. Accuracy capability is 2 1/2-3 MOA with M118 Special Ball or equivalent reload. This would be the best “worst case” test rifle. All rounds would be fired with the rifle loading from the magazine in normal semi-auto function. Slow fire single loading technique would not be used.

    For ammunition I selected 10 rounds of LC 92 M118 Special Ball. A check for concentricity revealed a runout of .011” for one round with the others being .004-.007”.

    My M118 equivalent load is:

    BRASS: The 10 LC 92 cases from the selected M118 Special Ball
    PRIMER: Winchester WLR
    POWDWER: H4895 – 41gr
    BULLET: M118 174gr
    CARTRIDGE OAL: 2.8”

    Other than deburring the flash hole, chamfering the case mouth and removing the primer pocket crimp, there was no special “case preparation” done. Cases were measured after each resizing with the minimum to maximum case lengths recorded. Concentricity was checked after each loading. Two cases (marked and tracked) consistently had .004-.005” runout with all others being .0005-.003” throughout the test. Neck thickness (outside diameter) was measured after each loading to check for brass flow into the neck area.

    The test would be concluded based on any one of these criteria:

    Any sign of incipient head separation.
    Case buckled or dimensionally damaged/deformed during resizing.
    Split neck or body.
    Case length exceeding 2.045”.
    Loose primer pockets.
    Neck thickening to cause excessive runout (.010”).
    Drastic deterioration of accuracy. (6th, 12th and 18th groups will
    be fired in Fulton Armory Match M1A to verify accuracy)
    Malfunctions caused by damaged (dinged up) cases.

    All test firing was conducted at Tacoma Rifle and Revolver range.
    The range has solid cement benches, which were used with sandbag rests front and rear. A 100 yard reduced “A” bull target was used. All targets were at 100 yards. I set up the Oehler 35P to chronograph all rounds fired for each 10 shot string. But as the test went on, and on, and on I quit chronographing after the 10th string. Chronograph results were consistent and showed no variation other than that normally expected. The LC 92 M118 averaged 2600 FPS and the M118 equivalent reload averaged 2575 FPS for the subsequent 9 ten shot strings chronographed.

    The RCBS X-Die was installed in my Pacific single stage press and adjusted as per the instructions. It’s really quite easy. These dies differ from other FL dies in the dimension and design of the decapping rod. The diameter of the rod is larger and appears to act as a mandrill of sorts. There is a shoulder on it, which controls the length as the case. Apparently the case is prevented from stretching by the case mouth butting against this shoulder. Thus the decapping rod must be carefully adjusted as per the instructions. This shoulder is the key to the success of the die.

    I found on the second resizing that the expander was really getting hard to pull through the necks. Also, the lengths of the cases were varying more than I thought they should. Case lubing technique was changed to standing the cases in a tray. They were then sprayed lightly with Dillon case lube. With this method the necks (lube gets sprayed lightly into the case mouth) pulled over the expander quite easily and the uniformity of case length dramatically improved. Cases are cleaned again to remove the lube. This should also remove the lube from the inside of the case neck.

    Throughout the test case length never exceeded 2.027” and actually remained quite consistent. After the 12th resizing the necks had begun to thicken by about .001” at the shoulder to taper forward about 1/3 of the way to the case mouth. However, this did not adversely affect concentricity or accuracy.

    The case rims got a little beat up but there were no malfunctions of any kind. This included the 2 firings in the match chamber M1A. Primer pockets remained tight throughout the test. I thought the case mouths would require rechamfering but they did not. Accuracy remained consistent with the rack grade M1A. The LC 92 M118 ten shot group was 2.8”. The last (15th) ten shot group with the M118 equivalent load was 2.4”, the average of groups 2-15 being 2.7”. Groups 6 and 12 were fired with the match M1A to verify the accuracy and both were 1.6”.

    The test was concluded after the 15th firing based on incipient head separation. One case developed that slight speckled circle at the expansion ring. There was no clear-cut crack and probably no gas cutting happened. I may or may not continue the test with the rest of the cases.

    Tabulated below are the measurements after each resizing:

    RESIZING---MINIMUM----MAXIMUM---INCREASE
    ------------CASE--------CASE-----IN CASE
    ------------LENGTH-----LENGTH----LENGTH

    1-----------2.013------2.019----------

    2-----------2.021------2.025------.006

    3-----------2.025------2.027------.002

    4-----------2.025------2.027------.000

    5-----------2.022------2.027------.000

    6-----------2.023------2.025----(-).002

    7-----------2.023------2.025------.000

    8-----------2.024------2.026------.001

    9-----------2.024------2.027------.001

    10----------2.025------2.027------.000

    11----------2.025------2.027------.000

    12----------2.024------2.026----(-).001

    13----------2.025------2.026------.000

    14----------2.024------2.027------.001


    Case length evened out at the third resizing and remained fairly consistent. Interestingly #’s 6 & 12 that were fired in the match M1A show a decrease in length! At #12 is where I detected a thickening (.001”) of the case necks in the shoulder area which tapered forward. Again this did not affect concentricity or accuracy.


    Questions not addressed in this test:

    1. Case life when used in match chambers or bolt guns?

    2. Case life of cases already fired several times?

    3. Case life of surplus once-fired (in machine guns) cases?

    4. Case life of civilian manufactured (Rem,Win,Fed,PMC,et all) cases?

    The answers to these questions will probably have results as positive, if not more so, than this test.

    My technique for loading M14/M1A ammo now will probably be as follows:

    1. Clean cases
    2. Stand cases in loading trays and spray lightly with Dillon case lube.
    3. Size with RCBS X-Die using Pacific single stage press.
    4. Clean cases. Clean primer pockets. (On 1st resizing prep cases by: remove primer crimp, deburr flash hole, turn necks, trim to uniform length and chamfer case mouth). Conduct visual inspection for defects (split necks, head separation, etc.).
    5. Load on Dillon 550B. Use a Bonanza neck size die or a Redding bushing die at station 1. This may or may not be necessary. The idea here is to iron out any dents the second cleaning may have caused in the case mouth and maybe uniform neck tension on the bullet.

    This limited test revealed that; using the RCBS X-Dies, when reloading for the M14/M1A, one may expect 3 times or more firings per case as when using standard dies. I have been using Bonanza Benchrest FL Dies prior to this. I’ve never found the need for small base dies, as some recommend, for they really shorten case life.

    This increase of case life is, in my opinion, truly astounding. Also, it appears case trimming is unnecessary. I would hope RCBS would make them in a wider array of caliber’s than currently available. I will buy more of them. When I think of the thousands of 5-6 times fired brass I have thrown out … Oh well!

    Good luck, good shooting and good hunting

    Addendum: I continued on with the test using the remaining nine cases. On the 16th firing another case showed signs of incipient
    Case head separation. The other eight cases have been fired 20 times. I doubt I’ll continue on as 20 firings per case is enough.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master

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    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...essure-Testing

    Vicarious 44-40 Pressure Testing

    Savvy Jack has done considerable pressure testing of the 44-40 cartridge in a special fixture. His work mainly revolved around testing Black Powder loads. While commendable Savvy’s tests did not answer several questions on loads Outpost75 proffered. Winter had also set which severely restricted Savvy’s ability to test loads. Even though I test pressures via the Oehler M43 PBL (Savvy Jack uses a Pressure Trace System) I do not have a 44-40 test barrel. However, I do have a 44 Magnum test barrel.

    Based on Savvy Jack and Outpost75s exchange I wondered if there was a way to correlate pressures obtained in the 44 magnum cartridges to the 44-40 cartridge(?). I had measured the case capacity of both cartridges using RL7 powder and found the case capacity of the cartridges (both were W-W cases) was very close.

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    I had read in the past that given equal loads the pressures in the 44-40 would be about 95% of those in the 44 Magnum. Thus I pondered to Outpost75 the following hypothesis;

    “ …I’ve measured the capacities or W-W 44-40 and W-W 44 magnum cases every way from Sunday and found they have essentially the same capacity. So, if I pressure test loads in 44 magnum cases in the 44 Magnum test barrel might they not give comparable pressures or at least a useful correlation figure? “ It was decided through further discussion I would pressure test some of Outpost’s 44-40 loads and my own 44-40 loads in 44 Magnum cases. Then selected known pressure loads could be chronographed in the same OM Vaquero revolver with 7 ½” barrel using the original 44-40 cylinder and the 44 Magnum cylinder from my FTBH Ruger 44 magnum. The Ruger FTBH 44 Magnum cylinder fits, indexes and has the same barrel/cylinder gap as the original 44-40 cylinder.

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    Thus, we theorized if the same load in the different cartridges in the same revolver gave essentially the same velocity [there is always be some variation to be expected though] then we could assume the pressure to be the same. If not, would the differences be consistent enough that we could deduce a correlation factor such as the “95%” figure previously mentioned?

    With that in mind I received from Outpost75 test samples of two of his bullets to test; the 43-206H and the 43-230G, both from Accurate moulds. I supplied two bullets also; the Lee 429-200-RF and the Lee TL430-240-SWC which I most often use in the 44-40 cartridge. All the bullets were sized .430 and lubed with BAC. Those four cast bullets would cover the most used weight ranges used in the 44-40 cartridge.

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    The testing would be conducted in two phases; phase one would be pressure testing the selected loads in the Contender 44 Magnum test barrel. Pressure data would be measured and processed via the Oehler M43 PBL. Phase two would be chronographing in the Ruger OM Vaquero via an Oehler M35P chronograph with the start screen at 10 yards from the muzzle in both 44-40 cases and 44 Magnum cases selected from the pressure tested loads using the two different cylinders. Some of the 44-40 loads would also be chronographed in the Chiappa M92 carbine just for the information.

    All cases used in both pressure testing in the Contender test barrel, the Ruger OM Vaquero revolver and the Chiappi M92 44-40 carbine in cartridges of 44 SPL, 44-40 and 44 Magnum were W-W cases. They were sized and loaded in RCBS dies for both cartridges. WLP primers were used throughout. Each bullet was seated to the crimp groove and a light crimp applied just enough to prevent bullet set back in a tube magazine. The TL SWC was seated to and crimped in the front lube groove. No set back or bullet jump was encounter during testing in the revolver or M92 lever action.

    The initial pressure testing of the selected loads would be done in my 44 Magnum Contender barrel;

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    The line connected to the strain gauge (shown in the photo) is connected to the Oehler M43 PBL. The strain gauge is permanently affixed to the barrel located at the SAAMI recommended point of transducer location. Previous testing with “reference” ammunition [factory loads of known psi measurement] shows this gives very comparable psi measurement to piezo-transducer measurements. However, there is one thing we must understand when taking psi measurement with a strain gauge. It takes 7,000 + psi to fully obturate most brass cartridge cases to fully seal the chamber and to put stress on the chamber walls [this is why many low pressure loads have “sooty” cases because they do not fully obturate against the chamber walls]. Then, for the strain gauge to measure any “stress” on the barrel steel, it requires several thousand more psi to induce enough stress. Thus, the lowest psi I measured of any shot during the testing was 11,300 psi but since it was with the 44 SPL cartridge I decided to use the lowest measurement obtained in 44 Magnum cases during this test.

    The lowest psi measurement during this test with the W-W 44 magnum cases was 13,300 psi. Ergo, I conclude that if any shot fired in W-W 44 Magnum cases does not register a psi measurement then the psi is less than 13,300 psi.

    As an example; one of the loads Outpost asked to be tested was his favorite 44-40 load of the 43-230G bullet over 6.0 gr of Bullseye. He pondered if there was any real difference between older Hercules Bullseye and newer Alliant Bullseye. As I had been given an older square tin of Hercules Bullseye which was still sealed, I thought I might be able to answer that question. There was no date on the older tin of powder but it was obviously old…perhaps someone knows when Hercules stopped using those tins?

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    I opened the tin of Bullseye and inspected the powder and found no sign of deterioration, so I loaded a 10 shot string of 6.0 gr of the Hercules Bullseye along with a like test string but with 6.0 gr of current Alliant Bullseye. Both under the 43-230G cast bullet.

    Neither test string registered any psi measurement thus we can conclude the psi was less than 13,300. I did track the velocity of each test shot. The average for the Hercules Bullseye load was 965 fps with an ES of 27 fps. The average of the Alliant Bullseye load was 961 fps with an ES of 33 fps. Essentially, we can therefore conclude, the Hercules and Alliant Bullseye powders are basically identical in burn rate per gr of powder. This and other testing demonstrate little change in burn rate, if any at all, between older Hercules and current Alliant powders of the same kind.

    Phase one testing results;

    All test strings throughout testing (pressure and velocity) were 10 shot strings. The data from loads that were pressure tested in the Contender 44 magnum test barrel;

    44 SPL; Outpost75 requested a pressure test of his 44 SPL load with the 43-206H (213 gr) loaded over 6.0 gr Bullseye. It proved to be an excellent load in terms of its internal ballistics and on target performance. Accuracy was excellent, velocity was very uniform with an SD of 11 fps and an ES or 35 fps. The average psi was 14,000 with an SD of 400 psi and an ES of 1,200 psi…..an excellent load.

    Data from 44-40 duplication loads tested in 44 Magnum cases in the 44 Magnum Contender test barrel:

    429-200-RF (200 gr) with 6.0 gr Bullseye; no pressure measurement thus psi less than 13,300.

    429-200-RF with 7.5 gr Bullseye; the average psi measurement was 17,800.

    43-206H (213 gr) with 6.0 gr Bullseye; no measurement thus psi less than 13,300.

    TL430-240-SWC (242 gr) with 6.0 gr 700X (my Vaquero and M92 load); no psi measurement thus psi less than 13,300.

    429-200-RF with 25 gr RL7; only one shot gave a psi measurement of 14,800. The other 9 shots were less than 13,300 psi.

    43-206H with 25 gr RL7; the average psi measurement was 17,300.

    43-230H (233 gr) with 25 gr RL7; the average psi measurement was 20,300.

    TL430-240-SWC with 25 gr RL&; the average psi measurement was 24,400.

    Phase two test results:

    Six loads were selected to be loaded in both 44-40 and 44 Magnum cases for chronographing via the Oehler M35P using the Ruger OM Vaquero 7 ½” barrel revolver with both its original 44-40 cylinder and with the FTBH 44 magnum cylinder. I’ll also list the velocities chronographed with selected loads in the 44-40 Chiappa M92 carbine with 20” barrel.


    Load………………………44-40 fps…44 Mag fps…M92 fps

    429-200-RF/6.0 gr BE……..947……… 1016………..1188

    43-206H/6.0 gr BE………...903…………970………..1121

    43-230G/6.0 gr BE………...881…………937

    TL430-240-SWC/6.0 gr 700X..858……...937………..1061

    429-200-RF/25 gr RL7……1053………..1130…… ..1428

    43-230G/25 gr RL7………..1071……….1163

    TL430-240-SWC/25 gr RL7..1157…........1204……….1488

    All loads in 44-40 cases gave less fps than the same load in 44 magnum cases in the same revolver. The average difference is the 44-40 produced, on average, 93.4% as much velocity in the 44-40 cases as the same load did in the 44 Magnum cases. That does seem to suggest that what I had read years back about the 44-40 producing 95% +/- as much psi as with the same load in a 44 Magnum case is correct. So, is there a correlation we can use to determine safe pressure 44-40 loads with pressure testing being done in the 44 Magnum pressure test barrel? It appears so. Since all was equal in the revolver except the chambering and since velocity is directly related to pressure [all other equal as was in this test] I think we can safely conclude a load that produces so much pressure in the 44 Magnum will only produce 93 – 95% of that pressure in the 44-40 cartridge.

    Note; nothing in this test is meant to imply any 44 magnum level psi is safe in any 44-40 chambered firearm. This test is only inferring we can find safe 44-40 level psi’s by testing 44-40 level loads in the 44 magnum test barrel.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master

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    unwinner and Wayne Dobbs-belated 38 SPL pressure tests
    First of all, my sincerest apologies for the lateness of these tests. between a very ot summer here, high winds and illness in the family having me gone from home I wasn't able to get the testing done in a timely manner. However, I did manage to conduct the tests yesterday as i was home, the weather was nice with 75 +/- degrees and minimal wind.

    Thesting was conducted using a 7.94" Contender barrel. The Oehler M43 PBL was attached to the Contender via a strain gauge. The test barrel is a 357 magnum barrel and using 357 reference factory ammunition test out compatible with the psi for that lot of factory ammunition. I first ran a test of my reference Speer 158 LSWC 38 SPL ammunition which consistently tests at 15,500 psi +/-. A test of that reference ammunition resulted in a 15,400 psi average. Thus all was well with the test system.

    Wayne had sent some 147 gr WCs he had PC with a red PC. I loaded them in W-W 38 SPL cases over his requested 3.5 gr Alliant Bullseye load. I tested them with 3 different primers. OAL was 1.257". Test results;

    Note; these psi's seem abnormally high for the load used. I am working on doing a retest so take these with a grain of salt.

    With WSP primers the psi was 26,100
    With CCI 500 primers the psi was 28,600
    with Federal 100 primers the psi was 24,500

    Wayne also sent along some Buffalo Bore Hard Cast WC (item 20D/20) non +Ps. The SAAMI MAP for standard 38 SPL is 17,000 psi and the MAP for +P is 20,000 psi.

    The Buffalo Bore pressure tested at 20,100 psi.

    unwinner sent some 358429s cast of 50/50 COWW/lead with just a "skosh of tin. They weighed out at 167.5 gr. I sized them at .359 and lubed them with 2500+. They were loaded in W-W 38 SPL cases, WSP primers with an OAL of 1.480". He had requested a test with 3.7 gr Alliant Red Dot. I loaded tests with 2.8, 3.1, 3.3, 3.7 and 4 gr of Alliant Red Dot. The pressure test results;

    With 2.8 gr the psi was 16,800
    With 3.1 gr the psi was 16,900
    With 3.3 gr the psi was 20,000
    With 3.7 gr the psi was 22,400
    With 4.0 gr the psi was 25,700

    Sometime, on a past thread or PM, someone had asked me if i had ever tested 5.0 gr of Red Dot under a 158 hard commercial cast bullet in a 38 SPL case. I had some so I loaded a test string in Speer cases with Remington 1 1/2 primers. The OAL was 1.50". The test results

    With the requested 5.0 gr Red Dot the psi was 24,500

  13. #33
    Boolit Master

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    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...rco-in-38spl-P

    Perhaps there is a reason most newer manuals don't show data with Herco in the 38 SPL? Could be with the advent and now common usage of piezo-transducer and strain gauge psi measurements which give a complete "picture" of the pressure curve they've found some powders aren't really suitable in some cartridges. Yesterday ran a pressure/velocity test of Alliant Herco in the 38 SPL. Pressure was measured in a Conteder with 7.94" barrel via the Oehler m43 PBL. Fps are muzzle velocities. I used the Lee TL358-158-SWC because when seated with the case crimped in the 1st lube groove it gives about the greatest seating depth of any cast 150 - 160 gr bullet. The Cartridge OAL was 1.465". The bullets were cast of COWW + 2% tin, lubed with LLA and sized at .358 and weight 162 gr fully dressed. Cases were Winchester W-W with WSP primers.

    I loaded 10 shot test strings of 5.4, 5.7, 6.0 and 6.3 gr of Alliant Herco (purchased last year).

    We mostly expect the measured pressure traces (time/pressure curves) to be nice smooth lines going up to max pressure and then tapering off to muzzle exit. Many times they do do that. However, many times they don't. Particularly with straight walled cases we many times see a secondary "bump" in pressure. Sometimes these are sharp bumps and are many times referred to as "spikes". I have seen a lot of secondary pressure bumps and some spikes over the many pressure tests I've conducted. As of this date I've never seen any spikes like the ones I got testing the Herco powder in the 38 SPL.

    Now, before anyone gets all excited and wants to insinuate the Contender test barrel and/or the M43 has some " noise" in it before and after testing the Herco loads I ran a test string of Remington 125 gr jacketed HP factory loads. The traces were as smooth as one would expect w/o any bumps or spikes. Previous test with that Lee bullet have also produced smooth traces with other powders. Thus the test equipment was good leaving suspect the Herco Powder.

    The test results;

    The 5.4 gr Herco load ran 1003 fps, SD 11, ES 27 fps, psi 19,100

    The 5.7 gr Herco load ran 1070 fps, SD 15, ES 40 fps, psi 23,000

    The 6.0 gr Herco load ran 1092 fps, SD 14, ES 42 fps, psi 23,200 ...... all the traces showed very high secondary spikes occurring during each shot. This is the first time I have ever seen a secondary spike in the trace exceed the psi of the primary chamber psi...... perhaps this is why we no longer see Herco data for the 38 SPL?

    Attachment 269024

    The 6.3 gr Herco load ran 1135 fps, SD 12, ES 30 fps, psi 25,200

    A subsequent test of the same Herco in the 44 SPL under the RCBS 44-250-KT did not show the sharp spikes but just little secondary bumps in psi which, as previously stated, quite common. Thus, while the internals measured quite uniformly the very sharp and high pressure spikes with Herco in the 38 SPL are of a concern. Caution should be exercised if using Herco in the 38 SPL due to the high end +P+ range of psi in the 38 SPL along with the occurrence of the very sharp and high pressure spikes..

  14. #34
    Boolit Master

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    I ran a 44 SPL test using Alliant Herco (purchased last year) under the RCBS 44-250-KT in Starline cases with WLP primers. Bullets were cast of COWW + 2% tin, sized .430 and lubed with 2500+. Test firearm was a Contender with 8.8" barrel. Pressure and velocity measured with the Oehler M43 PBL. Test strings/groups were 10 shots with groups at 50 yards. Ambient temps during tests ran 80 to 82 degrees. FPS is muzzle velocity.

    Attachment 269023

    Test strings loaded were with 7.0, 7.5, 8.0, 8.5, 9.0 and 9.5 gr Alliant Herco based on discussion of loads in this thread.

    Results;

    The 7.0 gr Herco load ran 911 fps, SD 15 fps, ES 57 fps, psi 13,700, group 2.25"

    The 7.5 gr Herco load ran 972 fps, SD 15 fps, ES 49 fps, psi 15,900, group 2.1"

    The 8.0 gr Herco load ran 1019 fps, SD 11 fps, ES 28 fps, psi 17,700, group 1.9"

    The 8.5 gr Herco load ran 1072 fps, SD 14 fps, ES 48 fps, psi 20,400, group 2.1"

    The 9.0 gr Herco load ran 1116 fps, SD 14 fps, ES 31 fps, psi 23,100, group 1.25" .... this was only a 7 shot string/group as on the 7th shot the hammer spring in the Contender broke. That brought testing to a halt for the day.

    I replaced the hammer spring and have loaded another test string of 9.0 gr Herco under the 44-250-KT. A test string of 9.0 gr Herco under the Lyman 429421 is also loaded along with "Skeeter's load" of 7.5 gr Unique with both bullets. Hopefully can complete the test next week (Monday or Tuesday) of the Herco 9/0 and 9.5 gr loads along with the two "Skeeter" loads.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master

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    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...shotgun-filler



    Testing 6.5 Swede HV loading with shotgun filler
    Hello all

    I am starting this thread to address the tests I am conducting with the 6.5x55 Swede cartridge with cast bullets shot at high velocity (2200 – 2300+ fps) using medium and slow burning powders with a shotgun buffer filler. It has been posted that excellent accuracy can be obtained with this cartridge and it’s fast twist barrel in that high Velocity (HV) range. It is also stated by those who developed this technique that it is dangerous as high pressures can result if the loader doesn’t know what he is doing. These tests I have and am going to be conducting are because I am interested in such HV loads in the 6.5 Swede and I have the mechanism (an Oehler M43 PBL) to measure velocity, muzzle velocity, downrange velocity (100 yards), Ballistic Coefficients, MAPs (Maximum Average Pressure), and can record the time/pressure trace. The objective is two fold; first to develop accurate (minimal 1 ½ moa in capable rifles) HV (22-2300+ fps) cast bullets loads in issue milsurp 6.5x55 Swede barrels using the described technique with shotgun buffer as a filler. Second is to determine if dangerous pressures do happen and where they happen.

    I will conduct numerous tests over the next several months. I have already conducted the first test. As the tests are done other sub-tests will be done along the way to give data or reach a conclusion on a point. Observations on what is working and what is not working will be obvious through the group size, the velocity and the pressure data. On the two main objectives (can the claimed accuracy really be had by other cast bullet shooters and is this technique dangerous) I will not make any conclusion until I have completed all of the tests. I would ask that all of you do not reach any conclusions before then also.

    Obviously this thread is a different track from starmetal’s “Milk Jug” thread. As such I am asking everyone to ask pertinent questions or make pertinent remarks. However lets just let the results of the tests and the data speak for themselves. Derogatory remarks and/or criticism without an explicit constructive answer to the criticism are not wanted. We want to progress here in as straight forward manner as we can. That means we must all cooperate toward this goal. If you can not do that then please don’t post. You are always open to start your own thread and criticize and complain to your hearts content there. Here we are trying to accomplish something in a meaningful way so please assist if you can.

    Thank you all for your cooperation.

    Larry Gibson

    This is the first test completed so far.

    6.5 Swede HV; Test 1

    I completed the first test of the 6.5 Swede with HV (High Velocity) cast bullet loads using a shotgun buffer as filler. The results while not satisfying were none the less interesting and informative. They will lead to additional testing to be conducted soon. The test rifle is a Mexican SR M98 action that I put a new, in the white milsurp M38 Swede barrel on. The headspace is very tight with factory 6.5x55 ammunition giving a “crush” fit when the bolt is closed. The action is bedded in a Fajen sporter stock with the first couple inches of the barrel bedded. The trigger is smoothed and is a crisp 2 ½ lb pull. The scope is a Tasco World Class 3x9x50 and is set on 9X for the testing. The rifle shoots factory ammo into less than 2 moa for 10 shot strings. With reloads using Sierra or Hornady bullets moa 10 shot groups are common.

    The velocity and pressure tests were done with an Oehler M43 PBL. The start screen was 15” from the muzzle. Testing was done at the Tacoma Rifle and revolver Club’s main range. There are very solid cement benches there and I set the M43 up in the same location each time I test there. The set up is also checked by shooting a test string with a test rifle and a known consistent lot of ammunition (referred to a “reference ammunition”). I use a .308W bolt action I have just for this purpose and a specific lot of M118SB that I have obtained. The pre-test check with the test rifle and reference ammunition was well within expected variation so I began the 6.5 tests.

    Test conditions; it was an overcast day with no wind to speak of. It was 40 degrees F during the test. Test target was at 100 yards. A front and rear rest were used.

    Test loads; I followed 45 2.1’s instructions with the bullets, and equipment I have. I will list here his instructions in italics and under each instruction mention what I did in bold. Also I wish 45 2.1 and starmetal to understand that I am not criticizing anything here. I am only reporting what I’ve done in relation to their instructions, previous statements and claims. My assumption is to take everything at face value and work diligently at getting the same level of accuracy at 2200 fps or so in the 6.5 Swede with 7.9” twist. My testing is far from over so again; I am not criticizing, only reporting and learning.

    •The correct (easiest to use, not the only one suitable to use) filler is the Ballistic Products: BP Original design buffer. Be sure it has not been changed from its original properties, i.e. it will NOT flow thru a funnel without help and clumps together when piled up.

    I did not have the correct filler as what I got was based on what I had gleaned/guessed at from previous posts/threads and from some PM information. I have BPI’s #47 buffer. It is a plastic buffer and does not flow through a funnel exactly as 45 2.1 describes. In a private conversation with starmetal he had not tried #47 either and was anxious to see if it performed. I conducted this initial test with the #47. I have some of the “original” on order to test when it arrives. If the #47 is not successful at least I will have some load data with several powders to narrow down the test parameters with the original buffer when I get it.

    •This filler is not a Do-All in that it has a specific purpose in this and other smaller capacity cartridges. Its purposes are to reduce the cartridge capacity in which it does these things: helps the slow burning powder to achieve it initial ignition pressure by bridging in the case neck/shoulder area thereby increasing initial pressure so that the powder burns very uniformly and evenly; keeps any powder gas off the boolit base along with stopping any gas cutting; compacts into a plastic solid mass which acts as a shock absorber and provides even pressure around the boolit base. After the boolit starts moving the filler plug moves into the neck out of the case thereby increasing case capacity again lowering the pressure buildup. This keeps the pressure lower than any other method I’ve found.

    I did not find any evidence that #47 was “compact(ing) into a plastic solid mass”. With all loads tested there was a large “puff” of the filler between the muzzle and the start screen with each shot. Even at the maximum load I stopped at which had 41,600 psi there was no indication the filler was compacting into a solid mass. It may prove different with other powders or with “original” filler, we shall see in future tests. The #47 filler also allows the two powders tested to burn uniformly and evenly.

    •To load the Swede correctly, you need to do the previously talked about things such as: reforming military thick necked 30-06 brass along with turning the case neck to 0.001” loaded case chamber clearance, a throat sized cast boolit that fits your rifle, a centered fired formed case, etc. These have been covered in detail before and can be found in the archives.

    The brass is well fire formed and necks are trued. Primers used were Remington 9 1/2s. The bullet is a 266455 that drops at .267-.268 when cast of WW/lead 50/50 alloy. The test barrel is .266 in the grooves. The throat is also .266 and an unsized .267 bullet gets shoved back into the case by the chamber throat. I seat the GCs first, then push them nose first into the .266 H die in the 450. The bullets are then lubed in the same .266 H die with LBT Soft Blue lube. The bullet fully dressed weighs right at 130 gr and looks exactly like the one starmetal posted that he got from 45 2.1.

    •To actually load the cartridge involves simple hand loading methods. You need dies which will accept the somewhat (0.268”+) boolit. Several die sets will not until altered. You also need a neck expander about 0.001" below your boolit diameter to expand and flare the neck with. It also helps with some powders to taper crimp the case neck lightly.

    The case necks are sized in a Redding bushing die giving .001 - .002” tension on the bullets. The bullets are seated so the front driving band is just off the lande. This puts the Top of the GC right at the base of the neck. I use a 7x57 die to seat the over sized bullets. A check on concentricity shows minimal runout (close to the best I get with cast bullets which is .001 - .004”. I did not crimp any of the loads and will include that in the next test.

    •Powder selection is fairly simple; you pick a slow for the cartridge powder. That is one which is probably one speed (or more) slower than what is shown in the jacketed data shown for the boolit weight you have. IMR 4350 and AA3100 both work here.

    I used 4895 for 3 of the test loads as starmetal had successfully used that in his 6.5MS. The test loads with 4895 were 26, 28 and 30 gr. I then loaded 9 five shot test strings with AA4350 starting at 31 gr. I chose 31 gr because that is what starmetal said was the load on the first 6.5 Swede groups he posted. My test loads went; 31, 33, 36, 38, 40, 42, 44, 46 and 48 gr.

    How much powder do you use? Fill the fire formed sized case up to within a dimes thickness of where the body meets the shoulder of the case. Measure that amount and check it against the loading data you have looked at. It should be on the low side of published data, at least for the powders shown. This is where you adjust the load varying the powder charge from that point up to the base of the shoulder.

    •How much filler do you use? Conventional wisdom says to fill it to the top of the case neck. If you do this you will NOT get a decent group. This filler DOES NOT like being compressed much. What you do is fill the case to the point where it will compress the thickness of a gas check (that will be just slightly into the base of the neck). You will want to tap the case head a couple of times at this point to make sure it is filled to that point. Seat the boolit and taper crimp slightly.

    I filled a case with 4350 as per the instructions and weighed that amount. I then adjusted a Lee powder thrower to throw that weight charge which was 52 gr. Noting the CC amount per the Lee scale I divided that into the powder weight which gave me a constant for how much volume 1 gr of powder was taking in the CC scale of the Lee powder measure. Then I adjusted the Lee to thrown the starting load. Subtracting the reading on the Lee scale for that starting load from the full case reading gave me the volume of filler needed to fill the case with filler. As I adjusted the powder charge up I multiplied the constant times the powder weight and subtracted that from the first filler volume. I found that due to settling of the filler I had to add a tudge to the filler volume. I set up 2 powder throwers; the first was a Lyman 55 to throw the powder and the second was the Lee to throw the filler. It sounds a lot more complicated than it was and I have to admit using 45 2.1 and starmetals names in vain for getting me into such a mess However I soon got the hang of making the adjustments and it went pretty smoothly. I did have to lightly rap the drum screw of the Lee thrower to get the filler to settle evenly into the extension. On the down stroke I also had rap the drum screw about 5-6 times to get the filler to drop into the case.

    •This is not dangerous if you have some wits about you, BUT I will not assume any responsibility for what you do either. This cartridge is graduate/PHD level on how to make it work and get it to shoot at jacketed accuracy and velocity, which it will do easily if you know what you’re doing.
    •You will have to make adjustments in those powder/filler levels to achieve this. There is a learning curve here. The best way is to post your group pictures along with what you did. The group size and shape will tell what needs to be done.
    It definitely took some thinking on getting the right way to make powder and filler amounts come out to 100% density. Once I figured out how to do it with the Lee thrower it was relatively easy.
    •You got any questions, then ask because Joe went thru this for awhile before he caught on to how it is properly done.

    What taper crimp die are you using 45 2.1?

    So with the afore mentioned loads and equipment I was off to the range to test. As stated I had everything set up and did a reference check to ensure all was set and that the M43 was giving proper readings. Now to the “Good, the Bad and the Ugly”;-0

    I ran the 4895 test first.

    26 gr 4895; produced the best accuracy of any load including the AA4350 loads. Group size was right at 2.2”. Velocity was 2085 fps, SD was 22 and the ES was 56. The MAP was 37,200 psi, the SD 1,300 and the ES 3,300. Bolt lift and extraction were easy.

    28 gr 4895; velocity was 2168 fps, SD was 13 and the ES was 29. The MAP was 41,600 psi, the SD was 1,100 and the ES was 2,800. No sign of hard bolt lift.

    30 gr 4895; velocity was 2236 fps, SD was 17 and the ES was 40. The MAP was 45,300 psi, SD was 700 and the ES was 1,200. Two of the shots gave hard bolt lift. Both of those shots gave the same puff of filler at the muzzle as the other shots. There was no sign of pressure with any of those shots. Primers were very nicely rounded.

    I then tested the AA4350 loads;

    31 gr AA4350; velocity was 1965 fps, SD was 22 and the ES was 45. The MAPwas30,500 psi, SD was 800 and the ES was 1,600. No sign of hard bolt lift.

    33 gr AA4350; velocity was 2047 fps, SD was 7 and the ES was 14. The MAP was 31,900 psi, SD was 1,100 and the ES was 20. No hard bolt lift.

    36 gr AA4350; velocity was 2167 fps, SD was 6 and the ES 17. The MAP was 36,100 psi, the SD 700 and the ES 1,600. No hard bolt lift.

    38 gr AA4350; velocity was 2252 fps, SD was 24 and ES was 62. The MAP was 39,200 psi, SD 800 and the ES 1,600. There was a bit of hard bolt lift on all of the shots. There were no signs of pressure.

    40 gr AA4350; velocity was 2340 fps, SD was 20 and the ES 52. The MAP was 41,600 psi, SD 10,00 and the ES 2,300. There was absolutely no bolt lift problem with any of the shots(?). There were no pressure signs.

    I am at a loss to explain the bolt lift problems at some points yet at a higher pressure there are no bolt lift problems. There was no indication of excessive pressure at any times. The time pressure traces, the time under the pressure curve and the duration of the pressure curve showed no indication of any pressure spikes. The puff of filler between the muzzle and start screen was consistent and always present. I’m sure there is a reason but I can’t think of it yet.

    There you have the Good and the Bad. The ugly is that accuracy for all the loads except the first 4895 load loads ran 4-6” until the last group with 40 gr of AA 4350 where only 3 shots stayed on the rather large target. I did not test the last 3 test strings because of the total loss of anything remotely that could be described as accuracy from a rifle barrel. Perhaps a shotgun barrel pattern would fit the description but not accuracy from a rifle.

    I shall revisit the 4895 loads with a harder bullet and different lube. I will also try 3100, H4831SC and RL22. With those slower powders I will start at 31 gr and work up to 40 gr. That is the plan and the test continues.

    There was some discusion as to the suitability of the Mex SR with the milsurp 6.5 Swede M38 barrel as being a "true test" of the 6.5 Swede. Well it is a factory milsurp 6.5 Swede replacement barrel. It has the original chamber (finished) and is at minimum headspace. How it being on a different action affects the outcome of velocity, pressure and accuracy is confusing to me. However, to placate those who think otherwise I also have a M38 and will conduct tests with it. To this effect one of the next tests will be a comparative test between the two rifles (the Mex Swede and the M38) to determine if there is a real difference. If there is I will use the M38 for the remainder of the tests. However, if it proves out there is no substantial differnce between the rifles then does it matter if I use the Mex Swede?

  16. #36
    Boolit Master

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    32 S&W

    I recently inquired at several LGSs regarding any 32 S&W or 32 Short colt cartridges they may have laying around. I ended up with several sample of 32 S&W of various makes of unknown vintage. The purpose for the acquisitions was to pressure test them. I pressure tested them a couple days ago and had interesting results. I also ended up with full box of Western 32 Short Colt which I’ve not tested yet.

    The test firearm was a Contender With a 10” barrel chambered in 32 H&R Magnum and a strain gauge affixed over the chamber at the prescribed SAAMI location for pressure measurement. The gauge was connected to the Oehler m43 and its attendant software in a laptop. I was able to measure the pressure and muzzle velocity of the assorted 32 S&W cartridges.

    As a reference:
    32 H&R Magnum
    Federal 32 H&R 85 gr LSWC factory ammunition ran 1217 fps (987 fps out of 6 ½” Ruger SS) at 18,200 psi.
    A Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye ran 1128 fps at 16,500 psi

    32 S&WL;
    Federal factory WCs; 12,000 psi
    Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 2.8 gr Bullseye ran 1060 fps at 16,800 psi (880 fps out of my M30 S&W with 3” barrel)
    Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye ran 1165 fps at 19,300 psi.
    98 gr cast SWC over 2.5 gr Bullseye ran 944 fps at 15,000 psi.
    98 gr cast SWC over 4 gr Unique ran 1101 at 19,000 psi

    The results of the 32 S&W factory ammunition;

    Winchester Western 86 gr Lubaloy LRN; 786 fps at 18,900 psi
    Winchester W-W; 727 fps at 15,300 psi
    Winchester [WRA]; 729 fps at 16,300 psi
    Remington [R-P]; 676 fps at 14,200 psi
    Federal [F C] 86 gr FMJRN; 833 fps at 17,900 fps
    Winchester [WRA] 86 gr FMJRN; 780 fps at 14,000 psi

    The average pressures for the 32 S&W ran from a low of 14,000 psi to 18,900 psi. The 32 S&W is presumed to be a lower pressure cartridge than the 32 S&WL because it is the shorter cartridge. That presumption is probably based off similar cartridges such as the 38 SPL/357 Mag, the 44 SPL/44 Mag, etc. Thus that presumptions has always led to the belief that using the 32 S&W in the old H&R and Iver Johnson top break 32 S&WL chambered revolvers was “safer” because of the less psi of the 32 S&W cartridge…….we see from the actual psi of numerous 32 S&W factory loads that is not the case……..

    I'm not saying 32 S&W ammunition is unsafe in 32 S&WL chamber top break revolvers just saying there's not a lot of difference, in pressure, between the two cartridges as is thought.

    I'd suggest, with the 311252 cast bullet, a small dipper be made out of a 22 short or LR case and filed down to hold 1.0 gr Bullseye and use that. The pressure will be comparable or less than the original and latest production 32 S&W smokeless loads. A recent test of some latest R-P 32 S&W (Green Box) showed it had 1.0 gr of smokeless (very similar in appearance to 700X...not say it was just saying it was similar) powder under the 88 gr lead bullet. That gave a psi of 13,300. My suggested load should be similar.

    Actually, according to my older Lyman manuals, the 311252 was designed for the 32 Colt and 32 Savage auto pistols. The 87 gr 311259 was designed for use with the 32 S&W. In such a small capacity case seating depth is critical to pressure generated. The 311252 seated with both lube grooves covered will be seated much deep than the factory 88 gr or the 311259 bullet would be. Thus pressures with the same load may very well be higher with the lighter weight bullet seated deeper. With the 311252 bullet I'd suggest seating so the case mouth is just on top of the middle drive band.....maybe just to the front edge. No crimp is needed, just straighten out the case mouth flair.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master

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    32 S&WL; 311008 115 gr SWC; Bullseye & Unique PSI Test
    A fellow member here, JoeJames, who is an aficionado of the 32 S&WL offered up a sufficient quantity of 311008 bullets for a comprehensive test of Alliant’s Bullseye and Unique powders. The nominal weight is 115 gr but Joes’, cast of COWW + 2% tin, weighed in at 116 gr fully dressed…..close enough for government work…… His bullets were sized at .312 and lubed with 50/50 lube.

    I used my 10” barreled TC Contender barrel for the pressure and velocity testing. I lose about 200 fps when the same loads are fired in my 3” M30 S&WL and a bit over 100 fps when they are fired in my 6 ½” Ruger SS 32 H&R. The Oehler M43 PBL was set up at the local range. Bench position used with sandbag rests. The Contender barrel has an old TC 2.5X scope on it, not the best but sufficient for testing purposes.

    Attachment 242387

    Attachment 242388

    The temperature during the test ran from 77 to 82 degrees. Humidity was26% and the barometric pressure was 29.82. Target is at 50 yards.

    There is little current data available using 115 gr cast bullets in the 32 S&WL. The last really relevant data was found in the Lyman #3 CBH. As you can see from the pressure measurement data of this test it appears the Lyman data for their listed max load of Bullseye is somewhat mild while their max load listed for Unique is a bit heavy, especially for use in older weaker break top revolvers and those having “pot metal” solid frames.

    Thus, JoeJames and I had settled incremental testing of both Bullseye (2.3, 2.5, 2.8 and 3.0 gr) and Unique (2.5, 2.8, 3.0, 3.3, 3.5 and 3.8 gr). Both powders are of Alliant manufacture. I used a Lee powder thrower as it throws both powders evenly. Thrown powder charges were set using an Ohaus 10-0-5 scale. Ten rounds of each increment was loaded for testing.

    Cases were R-P 32 S&WLs loaded on Hornady dies. Primers were Winchester WSPs for all charges. A mid range charge was selected for each powder and was also tested using CCI 500 primers. The 311008s were seated to an OAL of 1.257 and a slight roll crimp was applied just under the front drive band.

    Attachment 242389

    Accuracy of all the loads except the 3.8 gr load of Unique was 2” or less at 50 yards. That’s about the best I can do these days off sand bags. The 3.8 gr Unique load with its high psi obviously obturated the bullet more in the longer 32 H&R chamber giving some leading in the throat and first couple inches of barrel. May have been some gas cutting going on also. The 50 yard group opened up to about 5”.

    Here is the test data for each powder:

    Bullseye Powder
    Increment…..Vel……SD….......ES……psi(M43)….SD………ES
    2.3 gr……….863 fps…7 fps…..20 fps….14,900……600…......1,800
    2.5 gr……….908 fps…14 fps....36 fps….15,900…...1,500……4,400
    2.5 gr……….902 fps…10 fps…35 fps….15,300……500……..1,800…..CCI 500 primers
    2.8 gr……….977 fps…..7 fps….22 fps….17,800……400…….1,200
    3.0 gr……….1028 fps...12 fps…43 fps….20,300……700…….1,900

    Unique Powder
    Increment…..Vel……SD….......ES……psi(M43)….SD………ES
    2.5 gr………849 fps…21 fps…..69 fps….13,600…...600……..1,900
    2.8 gr………886 fps…19 fps…..54 fps….14,100……500…….1,400
    2.8 gr………886 fps…22 fps…..61 fps….14,500……900…….2,500….CCI 500 primers
    3.0 gr………951 fps…18 fps…..55 fps….16,300……800…….2,400
    3.3 gr……...1010 fps…15 fps….41 fps….18,000…...1,100…...3,400
    3.5 gr……...1062 fps…15 fps….47 fps….21,400…...1,500…...4,200….max Lyman CBH #3
    3.8 gr……...1134 fps…10 fps….30 fps….24,700……1,100…..3,900

    Now, please, before complaining about “hot rodding” or “over loading” the 32 S&WL cartridge understand that I am not recommending anyone load any of these charges. Given the wide discrepancy in quality and strength available in 32 S&WL revolvers each must make up their own mind what they deem “safe” in the revolver they have. The choice is theirs if they have 115 +/- cast bullets and wish to load Bullseye or Unique. For my own M30 S&W (pictured) I have loaded 12 rounds each using the remaining 311008s of Bullseye (2.8 gr) and Unique (3.3 gr) to chronograph and test for accuracy and POI at 25 yards. I deem those loads as entirely safe in my M30 as previously test 32 S&W (which is proclaimed to be safe in all 32 S&WLs) because they do not exceed the highest 32 S&W psi measured [18,900 psi] in the same test gun. I will edit this post and post the chronographed velocities when I get them.

    Larry Gibson

  18. #38
    Boolit Master

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    Comparison of various SP and SR primers in the 357 Magnum


    Given the panic buying, hoarding and shortage of firearms, ammunition and reloading equipment and components several recent threads have asked if it is “safe” to use, in lieu of standard SP primers, magnum strength SP primers or even SR primers. This question pops up every now and then but the recent numerous queries on this topic seem to be driven by the dire shortage of primers. Some reloaders have no standard SP primers with no prospect of obtaining any in the foreseeable future at anything resembling a reasonable price. They do, on the other hand have SP magnum or SR primers both of which fit the primer pockets of handgun cartridges using a SP primer.

    A recent video by a small ammunition manufacturer indicated switching from a standard SP primer to a SP magnum primer of the same manufacture posed no problem in the 9mm P cartridge with the given load tested. They tested, on the video, two 3 shot tests of a load to get three shot tests of pressure and of velocity. While there appeared to a mild increase in psi and velocity when the SP magnum primer was used with the same load the difference did not seem to be too much. The factory rep so stated it was safe to substitute primers. I had reservations about that conclusion as the test sample was too small and the load (powder and charge) was not given. Now he could have done that test numerous times to get a valid test sampling but that was not apparent from the video.

    While I had not specifically tested a direct comparison between different types of primers I had, from previous chronographing and pressure measurements, formed an opinion that, while some switching of different makes and types of primers seemingly made little difference, switching primers can sometimes give sufficient differences, particularly in pressure. I, of course, referring to small handgun cartridges using the faster burning powders. The results of this test should in no way be construed as a blanket statement or rule of thumb. There are just too many variables concerning the volume of cartridge cases and, probably most importantly, the ignition and burning characteristics of slower burning powders. The results of this test apply to the use of the easily ignitable fast burning powders used in small handgun cartridges.

    Thus to find an answer to the question [Can SP magnum or SR primers be substituted for SP primers in the smaller cartridge cases with a given load?] I rummaged through my supply of SP and SR primers and came up with five different SP primer make/types to test;

    CCI 500
    Federal 100
    Winchester WSP
    CCI 550
    Federal 200 Magnum

    I also came up with five SR primer make/types to test;

    Remington 7 ½
    CCI 400
    Winchester WSR
    Federal 205 Magnum
    CCI 450

    While there are other such primers I feel a sample of 10 different primers should give us an idea of the potential pressure increases and some aspect of whether or not substituting primers might be “safe”.

    Thus with that selection of primers I prepped 100 Winchester 357 magnum cases [ten shot test with each primer] . I selected a load to use with all the primers that was a mid-range 357 magnum load [based on previous chronographing] which should give a bit of “fudge” room if the psi’s did get too high with any primer. The load I selected to use was 6 gr of Alliant Unique under a 358156 cast of COWWs + 2% tin, sized .358, Hornady GCs crimped on and lubed with BAC. The bullets were seated, and roll crimped in the front crimp groove giving the loaded OAL at 1.597”.

    The SAAMI MAP for both the 357 magnum and the 9mm P are 35,000 psi.

    The test firearm was my Contender 7.94” barrel with the strain gauge located over the chamber as per SAAMI specification. The strain gauge was connected to the Oehler m43 PBL. Test conditions were a reasonable 60 degrees with 30% humidity and little to no wind. The velocity listed is muzzle velocity as the M43 corrects the screened velocity to the muzzle. The Oehler Sky-screen start screen was 10’ from the muzzle.

    All results are based on the 10 shot test string for each primer. All the time/pressure curves (traces) appeared normal for the test firearm. The results are listed by primer. Since the thrust of answering the question has to do with pressure that is the focus of this test. I shall make comments after the data for each primer is listed and also in conclusion.

    CCI 500 SPP primer

    Average velocity; 1178 fps, SD 11 fps, ES 38 fps. PSI average; 25,700
    SD 2,100, ES 5,700, high psi was 29,200 and the low psi was 23,500.

    This is a particularly good load. The internals are excellent as shown by the low SD/ES of both velocity and psi.

    Federal 100 SP primer

    Average velocity; 1189 fps, SD 10 fps, ES 36 fps. PSI average; 27,900, SD 1,700, ES 5,500, high psi was 30,300 and the low psi was 24,800.

    Another excellent load but we see a slight increase in velocity and psi. The 11 fps increase in velocity equated to an increase of 2,200 psi.

    Winchester WSP primer

    Average velocity was 1175 fps, SD 18 fps, ES 60 fps. PSI average; 26,300, SD 3,400, ES 9,900,
    high psi was 31,700 and the low psi was 21,800.

    This primer is supposed to be of stronger brisance as it is intended to ignite ball powders. We see a velocity and psi comparable to the previous two primers, but we also see a much larger SD and ES of both velocity and psi. Two of the tested rounds gave a psi above 30,000.

    CCI 550 SP Magnum primer

    Average velocity was 1179 fps, SD 17 fps, ES 60 FPS. PSI average: 27,500, SD 3,900, ES 13,500, high psi was 35,300 and the low psi was 21,800.

    This SP magnum primer showed no increase in velocity or in psi averages. However, obviously the internal psi created with what was supposed to be a “mild” 357 magnum load of Unique demonstrates something is amiss here given the somewhat erratic internal ballistics. Two the tested psi’s were above 30,000 with one exceeding the SAAMI MAP for the 357 magnum.

    Federal 200 Magnum SP primer

    Average velocity was: 1176 fps, SD 14 fps, ES 43 fps. PSI average: 27,100, SD 2,700, ES 8,800, high psi was 32,000 and the low psi was 23,200.

    Again, this magnum SP primer gave no increase in average velocity or psi. Yet the wide SD/ES of the psi measurements indicate somewhat erratic performance. The 32,000 psi shot gives cause for concern.

    Remington 7 ½ SR primer

    Average velocity was; 1184 fps, SD 20 FPS, ES 78 FPS. PSI average: 28,100, SD 2,800, ES 9,100, high psi was 32,000 and the low psi was 22,900.

    Except for the much larger SD/ES of the psi this SR primer gave similar performance to the Federal 100 primer. We must note that two of the tested shots exceeded 30, psi with this primer but not with the Federal SP primer. A noticeable difference.

    CCI 400 SR primer

    Average velocity was: 1188 fps, SD 15 fps, ES 52 fps. PSI average was 29,200, SD 3,700, ES 12,200, high psi was 35,100 and the low psi was 22,900.

    Quite erratic yet the chronographed velocity does not indicate that. No appreciable gain in average velocity yet a 2-3,000 psi gain is apparent in the average psi. Five of the tested ten shots gave psi above 30,000 with one exceeding the SAAMI MAP.

    Winchester WSR primers

    Average velocity was: 1173 fps, SD 17 fps, ES 50 fps. PSI average was: 27,600, SD 3,800, ES 9,100, high psi was 32,600 and the low psi was 23,500 psi.

    Again, erratic internal psi yet not apparent based on the “normal “chronograph measurements. No appreciable increase in velocity or psi as shown by the “average” of each yet 4 of the tested shots exceeded 30,000 psi.

    Federal 205 SR Magnum primer


    Average velocity was: 1185 fps, SD 16 fps, ES 63 fps. PSI average was: 29,700, SD 2,400, ES 8,200, high psi was 34,000 and the low psi was 25,800.

    Again, erratic psi performance not belied by the chronographed velocity measurement. Three of the tested shots exceed 30,000 psi with one approaching the SAAMI MAP.

    CCI 450 SR primer

    Average velocity was: 1171 fps, SD 15 fps, ES 47 fps. PSI average was: 28,000, SD 2,400, ES 6,900, high psi was 31,000 and the low psi was 24,100.

    No gain in velocity, small gain in psi with three of the tested shots above 30,000 psi. Appears to be the mildest of the “magnum” strength SR primers tested.


    So there’s the data which brings us back to the question: is substituting a SP magnum primer or a SR primer for a standard SP primer “safe” in a small handgun cartridge? The answer is somewhat of a conundrum. If the load with the standard SP primer is a low or mid-level load then the substitution may be deemed “safe” depending on the actual case capacity of the load in question. But then, how do you know?

    Unless you can measure the pressure, you won’t know. Dropping back and working back up to the same chronographed velocity is often recommended. I have even recommended that myself in the past. But is that safe? Looking at the velocities of all ten tested primers with the same load we find the average velocities ran from 1171 fps to 1188 fps, a spread of only 17 fps. Interestingly the lowest and highest velocities of any of the rounds shot were with SR primers. The average velocity variation falls easily within the average to average variation we can get chronographing the same load several times.

    Thus chronographing really isn’t going to give an indication of the difference in psi. The three standard SP primers averaged 25,700 psi to 27,900 psi with the highest psi of any individual shot being 31,700 psi. With the SP magnum primers and the SR primers the psi was always higher with several of the tested shots exceeding the SAAMI MAP of 35,000 psi. If we ponder what the highest tested shot psi’s would be (not the average of the test) if we had used a max load developed with standard primers in the 34-35,000 psi and then had substituted the standard primer with a SP magnum or SR primer? The highest shot psi’s would probably have exceeded 40,000 psi. That would not be what I consider to be “safe”. Might get away with in in some larger framed revolvers but still not something to be recommended. In a semi auto you might get away with it but it would beat the gun up at best and if a case head burst at the web.......possibly disasterous.

    In the 9mm P with its much smaller case capacity? I would not use any other primer than a standard SP primer with other than a "starting load".

  19. #39
    Boolit Master

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    The "FBI 38 SPL load" is a +P load. This a 150 gr LSWC. I have pulled several Winchester bullets and they are dead soft at 5.5 -6 BHN. I use a Lyman 358477 mould and cast them of dead soft lead or at most a 40-1 lead - tin alloy. % gr of Unique give a standard 850 fps load (4" barrel) and 5.5 gr Unique boosts it to +P at 925 fps (4" barrel). Those are measured psi's with an Oehler M43 and velocities out of a 4" M15 S&W. The +P load is the same psi and velocity as the Winchester factory +P load.

    Larry Gibson

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    TEST OF THE 6.5 “CRUISE MISSILE”

    Back a couple years ago when I did the 6.5 Swede HV test the individual who sent the GB 6.5 Kurtz bullet mould also sent a Lee mould for the 6.5 Cruise Missile” 175 gr cast bullet he acquired from Midway. This is one of them that casts bullets over size in driving band diameter and in nose diameter. The owner requested I test them when I got around to it. After moving from Washington State to Arizona and having most everything in storage for almost a year I finally got around to conducting a test. These are my trials and tribulations with this bullet.

    Before moving I at first cast the bullets out of COWWs + 2% tin and WQ’d them. I found the driving bands to be .272 +/- and the very long nose to be .269 +/-. When seated to any reasonable oal in the Swede case and chambered the hard bullets would be pushed way down in the case a only the 1st part of that long nose would go up into the bottom of the chamber throat. Others reported this same thing. I attempted to sized the noses down with bushings in a modified H&I die in the 450 Lubrasizer. The bullets were too hard and they bent or the noses were swaged off center. A softer more malleable alloy was needed. The cast CMs went back into the pot. The alloy was changed to linotype with 20% lead added. This results in a usable CM cast AC’d bullet that at least could be sized down w/o destroying the bullet.

    The 80/20 linotype bullets were first pushed through a .268 H sizer (I die removed) to size the driving bands and seat/crimp the Hornady GC on. The I die was replaced and they were then lubed in the same .268 H&I die with Carnauba Red lube. A .266 H&I die was put in the 450 Lubrasizer and bullets pushed in nose first up to the driving band to size the noses to .266. A .264 H&I die was also used the same way to partially size the nose half way back so when seated the ogive of the nose would be up into the throat at the leade. While I like a good challenge and enjoy casting bullets the gyrations I was having to go through to get these CMs to “fit” the 6.5 Swede throat were quickly getting out of the “fun” category to say the least.

    Attachment 92324

    We see in the above photo the 175 gr CM is a sleek “missile” indeed with the promise of that 1st kiss from a young maiden……and we all know how well that turned out……..actually though, we see that when the oversize CM is sized as such the driving bands at .268 “fit” the bottom of the tapered 6.5 Swede throat (all the milsurp M96s and M38s that I have measured have tapered throats as such) and the .266 to .264 of the nose allowed the bullet to slip up into the throat to just kiss the leade. As we also see the GC remains right at the base of the case neck which is good also. The actual cartridge OAL was 3.019”.

    At the range I set up the Oehler 35P to record the velocities and put the target at 100 yards. The test rifle was my M38 that is sporterized as a “scout”. The scout scope is the Leupold 2X. This rifle is capable of sub moa with jacketed and MOA with other cast bullet loads. This was to be the test rifle throughout. The test rifle barrel slugs out at .266 groove diameter with a pin measured .254 bore. The throat tapers from .268 at the case mouth to .266 at the leade.

    Attachment 92331

    The initial starting load of 30 gr was a surprise. Velocity was 1814 fps! Four of the shots went into 2.5” which is promising. However there was one flyer which opened the group to 4.9”. I am very good at calling my shots and that was a flyer. It was telling me something. The RPM was 167,446, already a bit over the RPM threshold or had I already pushed it up?

    Attachment 92330

    The 32 gr RL22 put all 5 shots into 2.6” at 1924 fps and 177,600 RPM! Hmmmmm, just maybe I was on to something here!

    Attachment 92332

    Then came the 34 gr RL22 load……only 4 of the 5 shots hit the 21x24” target paper! One of the bullet holes was showed signs of severe key holing or yaw. The one shot that went off target went high to the right (was observed hitting the back stop berm). Velocity was 2019 fps at 186,369 RPM. Internal ballistics based on the ES and SDs were showing very good.

    Tried the 36 gr RL22 load and only 2 shots hit the 21x24” paper target and they also key holed or were yawing severely. Velocity was 2220 fps at 204,923 RPM.

    Moved the targets into 50 yards for the remainder of the 5 shot test strings hoping to hit paper.

    The 40 gr RL22 load ran 2280 fps at 210,461 RPM with all 5 shots hitting the 21x24” target. All were key holing and the group size was 20”.

    At 42 gr RL22 only 2 of the 5 shots hit the 50 yard 21x24” target. Both were Key holed. Velocity was 2406 fps at 222,092 RPM.

    The last test also only produced 2 hits on the 21x24” target at 50 yards. They were key holed. Velocity was 2500 fps at 230,769 RPM.

    A friend was spotting for me and said all misses went way off target in all directions, no consistency to where at all. He was watching the impacts in the backstop/berm.

    Well that sure was exciting, eh……back to the drawing board………..

    Back home the rifle was cleaned with no sign of leading. The cases were cleaned, NS’d and primed for the next go ‘round. Looking at the targets and data from the initial test it appeared things were going good through the first “starting load” 30 gr load of RL22 at 1814 fps and 167,446 RPM. So I figured that would be the top end for the 10 shot tests. After several days and thoughtful sessions of further cogitation, extrapolation and another SWAG I decided on 23 gr RL22 as being the best place for a “starting load”. Thus 10 shot test strings of 23 – 30 gr in 1 gr increments were loaded up.

    Another nice and pleasant day with little wind found me at the range with the Oehler M35P set up and targets at 100 yards. The start load of 23 gr was almost a very pleasant surprise…..almost. The 10 shot group is 1.75” and there are actually 4 shots into that bottom 2 holes! Velocity was 1401 fps at 129,323 RPM. When we look close we see 4 of the 10 shots show signs of key holing. All the stability formulas say that bullet should be fully stable in a 7.8” twist at 1400 fps. Yet there are obviously stability problems. The thought crossed my mind; is this one of those cases where the bullet will “go to sleep” and give closer grouping at 200 yards? That was a question I really wanted an answer to.

    Attachment 92334

    Thus the bullets sat until a few weeks ago when I finally got around to conducting the test. After sitting around that long the BHN was still at 18 and the fully dressed weight was 171 gr due to the linotype alloy used. I used the same cases that were carefully prepared for the 6.5 Kurtz test. They are formed from U42 ’06 cases. They were NS’d with a Lee Collet die to give .002 - .003 neck tension on the .268 sized CMs. Primers used were WLRs.

    Since I only had enough bullets for one completely thorough test I chose to go with a slow burning powder to maximize potential velocity while maintaining minimal thrust on the bullet; in other words to lengthen the time pressure curve which is an important technique if one is to push the RPM threshold. Might be good to refresh our minds with what the RPM threshold is or at least what happens;

    the bullet is unbalanced or becomes unbalanced due to obturation in the bore during acceleration. The unbalanced bullet is forced to conform while in the barrel and its center of mass is revolving around it's geometric center. When the bullet is free of the barrel's constraint, it will move in the direction that its mass center had at the point of release. After exiting the muzzle, the geometric center will begin to revolve about the center of mass and it will depart at an angle to the bore (line of departure). At 54,000 RPM to 250,000 RPM, depending on velocity and twist, the centrifugal force can be tremendous. It will result in an outward or radial acceleration from the intended flight path (line of departure) and will try to get the bullet to rotate in a constantly growing helix.

    As stated many times and posted in a sticky the RPM threshold for regular cast bullets in rifles most often falls in the 120,000 – 140,000 RPM range. It can be pushed by using various techniques. I shall not go into all of them here as they are available in the sticky. Suffice to say increasing RPM has a distinct negative effect on this very long thin bullet. The 7.8 twist of the milsurp barreled 6.5 Swede rifles exasperates the RPM problem. I’ve measured the twist of my own four 6.5 Swede milsurp barrels and many others. The twist measurements fall between 7.7 and 7.9” so I just use 7.8 as the twist. Thus in the 6.5 Swede we find right at 1500 fps is close to 140,000 RPM. If we are to get any usable accuracy above that we must use an appropriate powder. With the very long nose of the CM I chose to go with RL 22 powder. Since load density would be below 80% a ½ - ¾ gr Dacron filler would be used also.

    Not a lot of load data available for the CM so I just initially “SWAG”d” it. To initially get a feel for the powder/bullet loads I loaded 5 shot test strings of 30 – 44 gr RL22 in 2 gr increments. This would give me a quick assessment and I would then switch to 10 shot test strings for final testing and/or tweaking.

    Note in these 10 round tests I’ve also summarized the data after 5 shots and then after 10 shots. This is to give the reader an idea of how a statically poor sampling of 5 shots can give an erroneous idea as to what the actual velocity, ES and SD of a load might be as compared to the statistically valid 10 shot sample.

    The 24 gr RL22 load produced a somewhat ragged 3.8” group pushing 1463 fps at 135,046 RPM. All 10 holes exhibited Key holing or yawing(?).

    Attachment 92335

    The 25 gr RL22 load was interesting. It produced a 10 shot 2.88” group and 9 of those were in 2.12”, looking good except all also showed key holing or yawing. Velocity was 1518 fps at 140,123 RPM.

    I’d like to mention what is called “random selection” with regard to groups of less than a statistically valid number. Were we shooting 3 shot groups I can pick out 8 different 3 shot groups that are 1” or less. Had we picked any one of those 8 combinations and just test those 3 shots we would be led to believe the accuracy capability was a lot better than it really is.

    Attachment 92336

    The 26 gr RL22 load put 9 in 3.1” but there also was a flyer that opened the group to 5.6”.. Velocity was 1572 at 145,107 RPM. Again, all bullet holes exhibit key holing or yawing.

    Attachment 92337

    The 27 gr load was another surprise putting 8 shots into 2.1” with a called shot out of the group. That is where I called it so I assume it would have been in the group. There also was 1 flyer opening the group to 3.2”. Velocity was 1642 fps at 151,569 RPM. All the bullet holes exhibited key holing or yawing but not as much as before. Are we getting somewhere? Is the CM finally settling down with good stability?

    Attachment 92338

    The key holing or yawing was back in the 28 gr RLL22 load. Group size was 3.7”. Velocity was 1702 fps at 157,107 RPM. Obviously we are exceeding the RPM threshold as the 100 yard group size is steadily getting larger. Only testing with some of these loads at 200 yards will tell us that for sure if the groups show non–linear expansion. Or perhaps the bullets will “go to sleep” and all will be great?

    Attachment 92339

    Well, things got no better with 29 and 30 gr RL22. The 29 gr load went into 5.1” with 2 shots really key holing. Velocity was 1762 fps at 162,646 RPM. The 30 gr RL22 load (starting load in the initial 5 shot test strings) put the 10 shots into 5.4”. Considering “random selection” and the initial 5 shot group with the same load that put 4 shots into 2.5” and looked good I could find four 5 shot groups of 2.5” or less in that 10 shot group. Had we just been shooting 5 shot groups we could still have been led to believe the load was good. Is it though? A 200 yard test will tell the tale……..

    So I went home, collated all the data, cleaned the rifle (no leading), cleaned the cases, neck sized and primed them. Then going over the data I selected the following loads to test at 200 yards; 23 gr, 25 gr, 27 gr and 32 gr (it had shot a 2.6” 5 shot group at 100 yds). The purpose for the 200 yard 10 shot group tests would be to see;

    Would bullets go to sleep and stop yawing?
    If so would they should smaller groups?
    Was the expansion between the 100 yard groups and the 200 yard groups linear or non-linear?

    I loaded up the 10 shot test strings of each listed load and a few days ago found me back at the range on another beautiful sunny and warm day with little wind. I set up the Oehler 35P and put the targets at 200 yards.

    The 23 gr start load that shot the 1.75” 100 yard group was nothing to write home to momma about! The 10 shots at 200 yards went into 6.1” ……not hardly linear expansion at all. Actually twice as large as a group with linear expansion would exhibit. Also every bullet was still key holing or yawing so they did not “go to sleep” as many sometimes think. Velocity was 1374 fps at 126,850 RPM.

    Attachment 92340

    The 25 gr load of RL22 fared no better. The 10 yawing shots went into 9.3” with no “sleeping” there either. Definitely non-linear expansion also. The velocity was 1497 fps at 138,184 RPM.

    Attachment 92341

    The 27 gr load went into 8.25” at 200 yards. Considering the very hopeful 8 shot 2.1” group at 100 yards this obviously is non-linear group expansion. However, as with the 100 yard target the bullet holes here exhibit much less key holing or yawing than with any other loads. Velocity was 1622 fps at 149,723 RPM. If I had this mould (no I don’t want one thank you) and was going to hunt deer with it I might use this load but would restrict any shot to 150 yards or less, preferably 100 yards or less.

    Attachment 92342

    The last 200 yard test was the 32 gr RL22 load that shot the sweet 2.1” 5 shot group at 100 yards. The velocity here was 1891 fps at 174,553 RPM. Sure looked darn good at 100 yards and if we didn’t understand that a 5 shot group could lead us wrong we might have blissfully loaded a bunch up. Problem is 5 shots is not a sufficient sample. Here’s where we find that out. Also this is an excellent example of why we, if we are pushing the RPM threshold, we test a sufficient sample at 100 and at 200 yards before we make claims. The target doesn’t lie. Out of the 10 shots with this load only 2 shots hit the paper! The other 8 shots went of randomly around the 21x24” target. One shot that hit the target exhibits no key holing or yawing. The other bullet hole exhibits minimal yawing.

    Attachment 92343

    Obviously the 6.5 Cruise Missile cast bullets were stabilized to some degree and flying point on or they would not have hit the target at all at 200 yards, at least up through the 27 gr load. It is quite apparent the bullets had exceeded the RPM threshold somewhere around 1400 – 1500 fps as they were doing just what the definition describes; “It will result in an outward or radial acceleration from the intended flight path (line of departure) and will try to get the bullet to rotate in a constantly growing helix.”. It also apparent that his particular bullet has some serious stabilization issues that add to the problem as even at 1400 fps there was severe yawing. It seems just as the bullet was becoming stabile ( at 1600 + fps or so) it had so far exceeded the RPM threshold that while accuracy was gained with one it was then lost with the other.

    My comments and results apply only to the oversize 6.5 Cruise Missile as tested with the components used. Those with the correct size CM may or may not get similar, better or worse results. Those with the same oversized CM may also get the same, worse or better results with different components. That is as it is. I am only reporting the results of my tests. Should anyone have a criticism please show us your results as I have shown mine.

    Larry Gibson

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check