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Thread: Designing a heavy slow .44 bullet for medium game

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    FYI, Quickload says the 43-390A needs to be loaded to a chamber pressure close to 44 Mag max for most useable powders to get decent sub performance. The good news is that muzzle pressures are very low making these loads pretty quiet even without a can.

    Code:
    Cartridge          : .44 Rem. Mag. (SAAMI)
    Bullet             : .430, 400 gr, 1.1" length
    Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.750 inch = 44.45 mm
    Barrel Length      : 17.5 inch = 444.5 mm
    
    C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
    loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
    that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
    and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
    USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
    
    Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                          %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
    ---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Alliant POWER PISTOL                61.4      7.5     0.48     980   100.0    23868     988   1.965
    Lovex D036                          50.2      8.0     0.52     980   100.0    27600     895   1.908
    Accurate No.5                       50.2      8.0     0.52     980   100.0    27619     894   1.908
    Hodgdon HS-6                        56.7      8.6     0.56     980   100.0    29930     845   1.881
    Hodgdon Longshot                    55.0      8.5     0.55     980   100.0    31040     829   1.870  ! Near Maximum !
    Winchester 540                      53.7      8.5     0.55     980   100.0    31609     822   1.864  ! Near Maximum !
    Alliant HERCO                       80.2      7.7     0.50     980   100.0    31861     830   1.870  ! Near Maximum !
    Winchester WAP                      61.1      8.2     0.53     980   100.0    34399     801   1.840  ! Near Maximum !
    Alliant UNIQUE                      74.4      7.4     0.48     980   100.0    34787     800   1.844  ! Near Maximum !

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
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    If you want to use 44 Sp cases and stay below the SAAMI limit, velocities drop a good bit

    Code:
    Cartridge          : .44 S&W Special (SAAMI)
    Bullet             : .430, 400 gr, 1.1" length
    Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.620 inch = 41.15 mm
    Barrel Length      : 17.5 inch = 444.5 mm
    
    C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
    loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
    that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
    and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
    USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
    
    Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                          %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
    ---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Alliant POWER PISTOL                56.6      4.9     0.32     773    98.2    15500     662   2.499 
    Lovex D036                          42.8      4.8     0.31     742    99.3    15500     571   2.562 
    Accurate No.5                       42.8      4.8     0.31     742    99.3    15500     571   2.562 
    Hodgdon HS-6                        46.7      5.1     0.33     731    99.9    15500     529   2.586 
    Hodgdon Longshot                    44.4      4.9     0.32     727   100.0    15500     507   2.594 
    Alliant HERCO                       63.5      4.4     0.28     725   100.0    15500     488   2.608 
    Winchester 540                      42.9      4.8     0.31     722   100.0    15500     497   2.604 
    Winchester WAP                      46.1      4.4     0.28     707   100.0    15500     451   2.634 
    Alliant UNIQUE                      55.6      3.9     0.25     707   100.0    15500     442   2.647
    Last edited by P Flados; 12-26-2022 at 03:19 PM.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    For my son's 357 Mag Henry, I wanted to use special length cases for a 180 gr bullet but load to Magnum pressures. I trimmed some magnum cases to SP length.

    Case capacity is likely to be less than using real SP cases. I plugged in the magnum case and the AOL from the SP to approximate the change in case capacity.

    Here is what the "best" powder for this application looks like:

    Code:
    Cartridge          : .44 S&W Special length, 44 Mag headstamp
    Bullet             : .430, 400 gr, 1.1" length
    Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.620 inch = 41.15 mm
    Barrel Length      : 17.5 inch = 444.5 mm
    
    C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
    loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
    that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
    and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
    USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
    
    Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                          %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
    ---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Alliant POWER PISTOL                79.4      6.9     0.45     980   100.0    32061     848   1.873
    Last edited by P Flados; 12-26-2022 at 03:31 PM.

  4. #24
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Flados View Post
    FYI, Quickload says the 43-390A needs to be loaded to a chamber pressure close to 44 Mag max for most useable powders to get decent sub performance. The good news is that muzzle pressures are very low making these loads pretty quiet even without a can.

    Code:
    Cartridge          : .44 Rem. Mag. (SAAMI)
    Bullet             : .430, 400 gr, 1.1" length
    Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.750 inch = 44.45 mm
    Barrel Length      : 17.5 inch = 444.5 mm
    
    C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
    loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
    that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
    and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
    USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
    
    Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                          %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
    ---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Alliant POWER PISTOL                61.4      7.5     0.48     980   100.0    23868     988   1.965
    Lovex D036                          50.2      8.0     0.52     980   100.0    27600     895   1.908
    Accurate No.5                       50.2      8.0     0.52     980   100.0    27619     894   1.908
    Hodgdon HS-6                        56.7      8.6     0.56     980   100.0    29930     845   1.881
    Hodgdon Longshot                    55.0      8.5     0.55     980   100.0    31040     829   1.870  ! Near Maximum !
    Winchester 540                      53.7      8.5     0.55     980   100.0    31609     822   1.864  ! Near Maximum !
    Alliant HERCO                       80.2      7.7     0.50     980   100.0    31861     830   1.870  ! Near Maximum !
    Winchester WAP                      61.1      8.2     0.53     980   100.0    34399     801   1.840  ! Near Maximum !
    Alliant UNIQUE                      74.4      7.4     0.48     980   100.0    34787     800   1.844  ! Near Maximum !
    That is amazingly helpful.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    ok so why not go with a big hollow point like the dynapoints shown on here???
    reason I ASK THIS...having used a fair few .308 calibre 151grn hp and the 170grn flat nose of the same... the 151s are by far the more reliable killing round and because they will double hole a deer ,as was so neatly put above" whats the point of going heavier??? the extra weight DOES NOT compute into energy expended inside the deer so therefore is wasted....
    I played around with the nose of the hollow points,placed plastic BB and a steel #2 bird shot pellet in some...cut slits into lips of hollow point all in quest of expansion at subsonic speed,I did only ever recover one projectile and it sure did expand.from 7.62mm to 16mm it was found in neck chops of a headshot sheep..30ish yards range to target at subsonic speed.
    the thought was there to try heavier still projectiles but then saw reason...and if 151 is going right through,200grn gains nothing.
    food for thought perhaps???

  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy
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    When loaded in 44 SPL case, the 43-390A has a COL of 1.627" and since my rifle is modern and would have no issues using higher psi in 44 SPL brass, I think it will be safe. Looking @ QL I would think a better powder would be N105, as I can hit 1000 fps @ a case psi of 31,000. I plan to start about 7gr. Once I have chrono data and temp data I will tweak QL to match the chrono results and then work up charges from there until I hit 950-980fps and then fine tune the load for accuracy.
    Some will say, why push the 44 spl to +P+ (per say) I will add that the only 44 caliber guns I have are all modern and can handle the pressure.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    there is another thread saying same thing...but loading 200grn in a 357magnum using 38special case to get the preportions/overall length correct.

  8. #28
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milky Duck View Post
    ok so why not go with a big hollow point like the dynapoints shown on here???
    reason I ASK THIS...having used a fair few .308 calibre 151grn hp and the 170grn flat nose of the same... the 151s are by far the more reliable killing round and because they will double hole a deer ,as was so neatly put above" whats the point of going heavier??? the extra weight DOES NOT compute into energy expended inside the deer so therefore is wasted....
    I played around with the nose of the hollow points,placed plastic BB and a steel #2 bird shot pellet in some...cut slits into lips of hollow point all in quest of expansion at subsonic speed,I did only ever recover one projectile and it sure did expand.from 7.62mm to 16mm it was found in neck chops of a headshot sheep..30ish yards range to target at subsonic speed.
    the thought was there to try heavier still projectiles but then saw reason...and if 151 is going right through,200grn gains nothing.
    food for thought perhaps???
    There is no doubt that a proper HP cast of soft lead is a good choice for thin skin animals like deer, but I hunt mostly hogs and I prefer a large hard cast flatpoint that will punch clean thru from any angle. Most of the hogs I have shot, very rarely have I been presented a broad side shot. I may also look into a softer alloy that would allow some expansion when I do hunt deer, but not sure I would use the softer bullets on a 250 + lb hog.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    yeah that 250lb plus thing takes a bit to get my head around...200lb is a BIG feral pig over here...still if you start out at say 300 grain and loose 100grns with expansion/shedding that still leaves 200grn to sail on through.I believe although bigger you pigs will be just like ours and its only the males/boars that have shield,the sows and smaller than 120lb boars arent overly hard to kill .
    I would definately suggest NOT trying the subsonic thing on big fellas.smack them hard with the most potent load you have at your disposal..keep the subs for the smaller stuff where you can creep in close and possibly get a couple before the sounder moves off then switch mags back to supers for fleeing shots at poor angles etc.
    most pigs over here are shot while being bailed by dogs so range is under 10 yards.Ive shot more than a few with centrefire rifles at 200 yards without trouble. use enough gun ,those big fellas can get nasty if cornered or hurt...well our lot do and yours are bigger so undoubtably crankier too.

  10. #30
    Boolit Bub
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    Looks like I need to go ahead and get quickload to work out some of the finer details.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    I previously noted that when I wanted high pressure ammo in a 38 Sp length case, I trimmed 357 mag brass down to Sp length. This is not foolproof, but it is a reasonable precaution.

    I will admit that I did start "testing" in the Henry with actual 38 Sp brass. For common ammo types, I will load above the rated specs for a cartridge case when I am confident my gun is strong enough but only for testing. All such ammo is fired or disassembled shortly after being loaded.

    Over the years I have learned that is is just too easy to loose track of what was in a given batch of ammo and/or any limitations on what guns it was loaded for. Not to mention the risk of "dropped ammo" at a gun range. This is just a hobby, I want no part in doing something stupid that ends up hurting myself or others and I want no part in damaging any gun.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pmc View Post
    Looks like I need to go ahead and get quickload to work out some of the finer details.
    I may be able to help if you provide specific details. I have played around with evaluating sub loads more than I have played around shooting sub loads. I find it interesting to see what can be done to get desired velocities and low muzzle pressures. Usually Quickload ends up showing me that my best guess for "optimum" powders for a given application was way off.

  13. #33
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Flados View Post
    I may be able to help if you provide specific details. I have played around with evaluating sub loads more than I have played around shooting sub loads. I find it interesting to see what can be done to get desired velocities and low muzzle pressures. Usually Quickload ends up showing me that my best guess for "optimum" powders for a given application was way off.
    After seeing your quickload chart I am specifically interested in chamber pressure. I am using a pistol suppressor and want to keep the pressure close to 45 acp. So I may need to back down on size some. I may be looking at something more along the lines of 360 grains. Its not reasonable to ask someone else to do. I am just thinking through the details

  14. #34
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pmc View Post
    After seeing your quickload chart I am specifically interested in chamber pressure. I am using a pistol suppressor and want to keep the pressure close to 45 acp. So I may need to back down on size some. I may be looking at something more along the lines of 360 grains. Its not reasonable to ask someone else to do. I am just thinking through the details
    Quickload is a great tool, but safe loading practices still have to be followed. While QL is a great tool it is often incorrect, but can be tweaked to be closer to actual data. But it will take measuring case capacity for specific brass, bullet information verified and safe loading practices and if you see any signs of pressure stop and reevaluate the load and components.
    I use QL to get in the ballpark and to look how different powders could work. I have found powders that normally people overlook for a specific bullet/cartridge and worked out great as well as the opposite. For subsonic, I like to find powders that burn completely in 3/4 length of the complete barrel to the end of the barrel. I also look at the muzzle psi as that is important for suppressor use, the lower psi @ the muzzle the better. (Hint the longer barrels usually have lower muzzle psi with subsonic loads.)
    So get ready to spend way too much time in front of the computer if you get QL.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    a while bakc handloader? do not really remember... made a sub sonic .454 cal.. because of noise.-- do not remember much except it was very heavy

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pmc View Post
    After seeing your quickload chart I am specifically interested in chamber pressure. I am using a pistol suppressor and want to keep the pressure close to 45 acp. So I may need to back down on size some. I may be looking at something more along the lines of 360 grains. Its not reasonable to ask someone else to do. I am just thinking through the details
    You seemed concerned about chamber pressure. For any decent gun, a "High" chamber pressure is normally not a bad thing as long as you are below the SAAMI limit. Unless your subs are just for plinking and/or punching paper, I would recommend trying to find a load with a predicted chamber pressure of at least say 85% of the SAAMI limit. I would stick by this recommendation regardless of bullet weight.

    Having said the above, dropping down some does not sound like a bad choice. I would first try to figure out the max AOL that your gun would be happy with. Then see if you can find a bullet you like the looks of that will give you close to this AOL with magnum cases.

  17. #37
    Boolit Bub
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    Muzzle pressure is actually the concern. I don't want to blow up a suppressor needlessly, it is an expensive and time consuming mistake. My pistol suppressor is the limiting factor, it is rated for 45 acp. As for maximum length, Magazine capacity is 1.75. It seems best to keep C.O.L to 1.735. With re-barreling I can have the chamber reamed to accommodate the longer round. With a boolit around 1.1" there is still enough room for the powder.

    Based on 475AR's experience, his 390 mold work out at about 400 grains and it has lube grooves. I think I could shorten the bullet up to 1" since I will be powder coating and NOT have lube grooves. and keep the weight around 380.

  18. #38
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pmc View Post
    Muzzle pressure is actually the concern. I don't want to blow up a suppressor needlessly, it is an expensive and time consuming mistake. My pistol suppressor is the limiting factor, it is rated for 45 acp. As for maximum length, Magazine capacity is 1.75. It seems best to keep C.O.L to 1.735. With re-barreling I can have the chamber reamed to accommodate the longer round. With a boolit around 1.1" there is still enough room for the powder.

    Based on 475AR's experience, his 390 mold work out at about 400 grains and it has lube grooves. I think I could shorten the bullet up to 1" since I will be powder coating and NOT have lube grooves. and keep the weight around 380.
    I can draw it up without the lube grooves and will post it shortly. What max COAL are you wanting to be @? Also what suppressor are you going to use?

  19. #39
    Boolit Bub
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    Don't worry about drawing it. I have CAD. COL of 1.735 gives me some leeway. The Suppressor is an old Gemtech Blackslide I have had forever.

  20. #40
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pmc View Post
    Don't worry about drawing it. I have CAD. COL of 1.735 gives me some leeway. The Suppressor is an old Gemtech Blackslide I have had forever.
    Already did it...
    Click image for larger version. 

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check