Designing a heavy slow .44 bullet for medium game

[Pmc]

I am looking for your input on designing a bullet for medium game (Deer in 100 to 200lb range) at short (less than 100 Yards) range.

Here are the basics.

1. Why? - Because. I have killed dozens of deer in the last 20 years with subsonic 300 whisper, 308 win and 44 mag. I want to build a specific purpose dedicated 44 mag, a heavy bullet is easier to keep subsonic and deliver as much energy as possible.

2. I do cast and reload and have good supply of lead, tin, WW etc..

3. I have a Remington 788 44 magnum I am going to rebarrel to a faster twist (1 in 24 or so) for this project.

4. Bullet needs to be in the 400 grain range fired at 1000 fps.

5. I hunt with a suppressor

6. Leaning toward powder coating

All that being said I will need a custom mold - I have been Looking at Accurate Molds 43-405P as an example but want a wider Meplat. I prefer it to be about .7 (.300") What is really tripping me up at this point is the ogive.

Any input on design would be appreciated.

[HWooldridge]

The tip can be a truncated cone - position your meplat for the desired bullet weight then draw a straight line to the full-size outside diameter; at the ranges you will likely use this pill, you could also go with a full wadcutter.

Another option would be to use a 405 gr .458 slug as a model and reduce it to .430. Would probably have to play with the length to reach 400 grs.

[longbow]

I don't have time to look up info right now but I have a drawing of Dr. Richard Gunn's heavy subsonic .45 cal. bullet. I modeled it in 3D then scaled it to .44 cal. It is just over 400 grs.

I'll post it later.

Longbow

[Loudenboomer]

If you're an AR shooter another option could be to get a .458 SOCOM upper. It will stabilize sub sonic bullets to 600 gr. With lighter bullets comes close to 45-70 factory performance.

[Pmc]

Thank you both for the input. I do have nanocad. The idea of a truncated cone might be the simplest. Running a few quick numbers puts it around 390 gr at 1" long made up of .75" base and a .25" cone. Longbow I would like to see your drawing when you have a chance.

[longbow]

Just got back and have to go blow snow but here is the Dr. Richard Gunn drawing:



When I finish clearing the driveway and the neighbour's driveway I'll look up the scaled down version in .44.

I was thinking of a .44 mag. Whisper or 444 Marlin bullet.

Longbow

[475AR]

Here is one I designed for my Henry Big Boy X, I plan to hi-tec coat and power coat a few and see which does better.

I just got the mold from Tom and hope to cast some up this weekend.

[longbow]

Okay, I just moved enough snow to do me a while but will be at it again later as it is still snowing!

Here is the scaled down version of Dr. Gunn's design:



I have not gone back to check the drawing or make "nice" numbers, that is just scaled down and as is. I was planning on neatening up the drawing and getting Accurate to make a mould but I never got to building a gun... another project dreamed about but not made!

Weight as is should be 420 grs. in pure lead.

Longbow

[Pmc]

Here is one I designed for my Henry Big Boy X, I plan to hi-tec coat and power coat a few and see which does better.

I just got the mold from Tom and hope to cast some up this weekend.

I actually had looked at your design in his catalog. Will be very interested to hear your results.

[DougGuy]

A lot of guys post looking for information on slowing down a 300+gr boolit, usually in 44m or 45Colt, and it always comes down to the fact that these heavies need SPIN to stabilize the boolit in flight. You can do all the computing and figuring you want, but leave that out? Not going to have the results you hoped for.

[Pmc]

Thank you. What do you suggest?

[DougGuy]

Thank you. What do you suggest?

Look at the specs for leverguns in 44 caliber. Most of them are 1:38 or something like that, Chiappa had a 1:20 that I thought would be a much wiser twist rate for a bulldozer at subsonic velocities.

If there is any "magic window" in a heavy for caliber boolit, it's launch at just barely supersonic, and arrive at hide at just under supersonic. I personally target 1200fps at the muzzle in a 7 1/2" SBH, and at 40 or 50 yards I think it would be close to 1100 or maybe less.

A large meplat boolit 300gr or over at 1120fps would be a two holer on any deer in the USA, and you would likely not recover any of the fired rounds after striking game unless the deer was standing in front of a tree and you dug it out of the tree. IF it stopped in the tree!

The type of energy you are talking about building, if a deer was standing behind a 16" pine, it would pass right through the pine and still kill the deer, and you still would likely not recover it.

My own 4 5/8" 45Colt Vaquero shoots the SSK 340gr TC boolit over 22.5gr W296, right at 1000fps. I used a stack of seasoned oak firewood for a backstop, shooting into the logs from the ends it was going completely through some 36" to 42" pieces. I recovered some of the slugs, others continued on into the stack of wood behind the one I was shooting into. True story.

Anyway, have fun designing it and developing a load for it, just be sure to spin it up..

[longbow]

If you check the Richard gun drawing he gives a stability factor of 2.5 for 900 FPS from a 1:16" twist for the .45 version.

The JBM calculator shows a stability factor of 1.5 at 1000 FPS in a 1:26" twist and stability factor of 2.5 for 1:20" twist.

Of course 1:38" is way too slow for that long a bullet. The CVA Scout and later Marlins run 1:20" twist so plenty fast for that boolit.

Longbow

[Pmc]

Good information. I am very familiar with a 1 in 38 twist. It is the factory twist in my rem 788 that I have been shooting for over 15 years. The real trick with subsonics is the need to be kept below .94 of the speed of sound. When you begin to enter .95 and above you are entering transonic territory. Also have to take into account that the barrel itself will have to be longer than 16", not a revolver length. For my area that is going to place me somewhere 1020 to 1050 fps.

Again the goal of a bullet in the 400 grain range is to help maximize energy while maintaining velocity in the 1000 fps range. But thank you again for the input.

[megasupermagnum]

I've never gone as heavy as 400 grain, but based on my testing with 335-355 grain bullets, as well as my reading about the Beartooth 405gr, you would be smart to get as fast a twist barrel as possible. I'm having good results with some bullets in the mid 300gr range with my 1:20" twist revolvers, but a little more speed seems to improve accuracy on all except the 335gr SSK bullet. That bullet seems to shoot well even subsonic. I have seen quite good accuracy reports on the Beartooth 405gr at around 1050 fps from a Redhawk revolver, but is it really as good as it can be in rifle terms? If you can get a 1:18 twist or faster I'd get it. 1:20" is pretty standard, and it would work. I would not go any slower than that.

I doubt anyone here can tell you with certainty what the best bullet is for your rifle. I've never had a 788 and I have no idea if they have long throats, or can handle long cartridges or not. I'm guessing you aren't too concerned about feeding. I have a bullet that is kind of like the Accurate 43-360D if you would like to try it. It does have a fat nose, not a bore rider though. There is a good chance it won't chamber in a rifle if crimped in the crimp groove. I'll gladly send you some if you want.

[Bigslug]

Doug's touching on a good point - stability: do you have enough twist rate to stabilize a bullet that heavy/long?

That said, one thing to consider is that since you're going to be powder coating, you don't need lube grooves, which will allow you to keep a bullet at that weight shorter.

As to meplat, what is your rifle capable of feeding? As study of your magazine and how it presents rounds will be in order, but your .30" concept is pretty well established for .44's.

I wouldn't get too hung up on things like "must be 400 grains". I've done a lot of pseudo-scientific penetration testing with milk jugs and have come to the pseudo-scientific conclusion that the MK1, Mod0 1-gallon plastic milk jug is ROUGHLY equivalent in resistance to 4.5" of FBI ballistics gel. I have needed a stack of NINE of those jugs to stop:

A 230 grain .45 Auto with a .32" meplat at 830 fps
A 130 grain .32 with @ a .25" meplat at 1250 fps
A 135 grain 9mm with a .25" meplat at 1030 fps
A 147 grain truncated flat point (meplat probably about .20") 9mm at 1000 fps was NOT stopped by the nine jugs I had available for it.

(For additional reference, I was able to shoot a Lyman 195 grain round nose .38 into actual FBI spec gel at only 570 fps. The 18" thick block didn't stop it.)
(For more additional reference, I did a jug shoot with an authentic copy of the .455 Webley MKIV bullet, which is basically a slightly ogived wadcutter dropping at 228 grains. At only 600 fps, these dented the back of jug #4 and would have easily done 5 if I was using standard milk jugs instead of the thicker pool chlorine versions I had on hand. Probably about 20" of gel penetrating capability even at that pokey speed, low mass, and near-maximum nose diameter)

So, theoretically, those nine-juggers have the capability to penetrate about 40" of FBI gel with a LOT less mass than you are planning to kick out. A quartering shot on a big deer might need 20-24". It's true that if you have more weight, you'll better retain the velocity you start with, and it'll help your trajectory some, but my point is you've got energy to spare for your hundred yard shot. Look for a bullet length that comes out of one of the online ballistic twist rate calculators as "stable" at the ~1050 fps you need to play at, set the nose length for your mag, and then make sure you have room for the powder you need to get it going that speed.

[barnetmill]

Doug's touching on a good point - stability: do you have enough twist rate to stabilize a bullet that heavy/long?
......................d.

I know that one way to make a non-expanding bullet to do more tissue damage is to design it to tumble upon striking flesh. High velocity rounds like M193 5.56 are well known for doing that. But also the slow, long heavy bullets 38-200 British Revolver loadings were also said to tumble. Making the bullet long and the front being very light might increase tumbling.

[475AR]

I actually had looked at your design in his catalog. Will be very interested to hear your results.

So I got a chance to cast some and I am happy with them so far. This being the first casting session the bullets just fell out of the mold and are very consistent weight wise, 400.2-3gr with the lead I had in the pot.

[Pmc]

So I got a chance to cast some and I am happy with them so far. This being the first casting session the bullets just fell out of the mold and are very consistent weight wise, 400.2-3gr with the lead I had in the pot.

What is you C.O.A.L.?

[475AR]

What is you C.O.A.L.?

In 44 mag brass 1.75" which cycles thru my Henry Big Boy X, although I can't extract a loaded round unless I pop it off the extractor. I need to load it in 44 spl brass and see what the col is.