Cold weather lube. . .what is the latest and greatest?!?!?!?

[BABore]

357Maximum was the originator of MML, MML+soap, and Satan's lube or 666. MML was the first in his quest to solve the first shot flyer issue. It could be called a more modern Lithi-Bee lube. MML+soap came next and its goal was to up the velocity game which it did. Finally came Satan's lube which was made from cheap, easy-to-get ingredients and have similar results to the MML's. All have been used from the teens to 90+ degrees with great success. High velocity can be obtained with all three.

[Chena]

I am about to load 100 test rounds of .44 Special using my first batch of Simple Lube. Can anyone chime in on how SL performs in temps down to about 0 degrees?

[M-Tecs]

Some light reading here

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...lube-additives

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...d-weather-lube

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...d-weather-lube

This one has 3055 posts for your reading pleasure.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...lube-The-Quest

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I am about to load 100 test rounds of .44 Special using my first batch of Simple Lube. Can anyone chime in on how SL performs in temps down to about 0 degrees?

I've read the SL thread. R5R says it's good down to 20ºF. I'd suggest to add more Dextron to make it work in colder weather.

[Chena]

Jon - many thanks. Guess I should read the entire sticky!

[justindad]

I remember reading that adding a small amount of transmission fluid to the lube helped first shots in the cold. How much - idk. Maybe a 1% additive?

[megasupermagnum]

I believe you are looking in the wrong area for your problem. I did some testing with lubes in cold, but we are talking about cold. Like -10F cold. I've never seen any problem above freezing. Even at the worst, I've never seen a POI shift of 4" at what I can only assume is 50 yards from lube alone. I can't recall ever seeing it at 100 yards either. As M-Tecs says, lube doesn't really effect the first shot.

May I suggest that you should be looking at something else, especially ignition related. I would try different primers first. I've definitely seen some big shifts from inconsistent ignition and powder position.

[BD]

Felix lube has been very temperature consistent for me for over 20 years now in a wide variety of loadings. -10 to low 90s in northern Maine. It’s a bit of a pain to make. But it works.

[Gobeyond]

I use the spg, nra clone. Seems like the bullet doesn’t have enough for for the whole cold barrel. A pre shot coating sounds like the way to go. Use temperature insensitive primers and a hot federal primer. Wait until it gets good and cold then light it up.
It’s snowing right now.

[nekshot]

I use Felix lube mixture. One really cold winter I did a lot of testing with my cast hunting loads. Felix moved about 1 inch difference at 100 yards. Was happy with that. Bens red really went berserk in temps below freezing.

[tja6435]

Speaking only about VV N-110, I checked their web site and they had no cast bullet listing for this powder. What is the bullet weight, powder weight and source of your data? For 44 mag.

https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading.../?cartridge=47

Lyman #49 has load data for several cast boolits using N-110 in 44 magnum

[RonL]

It may not be the lube that is affecting the first shot cold barrel. It may be the barrel. The cold may be affecting the barrel harmonics. I have found less variation when shooting a bull barrel gun. The cold may also be affecting the tolerances of the barrel. Even shooting jacketed in extreme cold affects the accuracy.

[greenjoytj]

I have no doubt the some bullet lubes perform best within a certain temperature range.
We all want lube that works perfectly across the full range of ambient temperatures we might be shooting in, with both smokeless and black powder.
I don’t believe a bullet lube that meets the all temperature requirements exists, if it does, the ingredients are not available in affordable packaging quantities (think drum size for $K’s). But keep searching if you’re enjoying the quest.

I think doing a ladder test and choose a powder charge weight that keeps your firearms bullet POI very close to the POI you get at some grains charge weight both above (simulates hot weather shooting) and below (simulates cold weather shooting). Doing this just might simulate a widening of the useable temperature range of your bullet lube.

I think the ambient temperature plays havoc with pressure within the barrel particularly in the cold or very cold.
Powder gas just can’t reach summer temperatures within the cold barrel as the cold steel draws away the heat in the gas. This reduced gas pressure is going to reduce MV and lower your POI. Also the volume of denser cold air (at sea level pressure) between your muzzle and the target will more quickly reduce the bullet velocity as it moves through this denser air on it way to the target.

[winelover]

Greenjoy: Explain why my first shots, out of cold barrels in cold temps, are always printing high?

Winelover

[greenjoytj]

Were you able chronograph the cold barrel high impact shots? If those shots exited the muzzle a little slower, then the increased time the bullet stayed in barrel allowed time for the barrel to rise or whip up higher. Therefore changing the POI on the target. The barrel harmonics could be changing slightly by the cold temperatures.
Cold cast bullet lube could slow the bullet velocity particularly on a delayed second shot where the bullet lube now mixed with the previous shots powder fouling had time to stiffen thereby slowing the second shot as the bullet plows through the cold stiffen fouling. A cold barrel plus cold fouling all drawing heat from the powder gas resulting in lower MV which causes the bullet to be in the barrel longer allowing barrel harmonics to play havoc with the POI at the target.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Testing in the cold for that cold first shot is tough. As soon as the first shot is fired, the barrel starts to warm and the 'cold' barrel condition is lost. I have left rifles and ammunition in the cold (-15*F) but after the first shot, the barrel is warm. Shots must be spaced 15-30 minutes apart to keep the barrel truly cold. I would not start with a clean barrel for testing bullet lubes in the cold. Fire the rifle with the lube being tested at least 10 rounds, then chill it down. It only takes two or three shots to heat barrel enough that testing for 'cold' effect is lost, even if cartridges are kept cold. At 100 yards with Bullshop's cold lube, 'NRA' 50-50, some other lubes in the .308, .358 and .32 Special, I have found less than 2" difference from first shot to group at 0 to -10*F, same with most powders, Reloder 15, Varget, even 2520 show maybe 25-50 fps from first to second shot, then settle in to 'normal', velocities. No issues above 20-25*F. Keeping the barrel truly cold is the hard part of ' COLD' testing. Loads tested had already been established using ladder/incremental testing at 200 yards.

[GregLaROCHE]

How does paper patching preform in cold weather ? Could that be an option ?

[huntinlever]

357Maximum was the originator of MML, MML+soap, and Satan's lube or 666. MML was the first in his quest to solve the first shot flyer issue. It could be called a more modern Lithi-Bee lube. MML+soap came next and its goal was to up the velocity game which it did. Finally came Satan's lube which was made from cheap, easy-to-get ingredients and have similar results to the MML's. All have been used from the teens to 90+ degrees with great success. High velocity can be obtained with all three.

Sorry for the OT and dated resurrection but I've just been thinking of this...I cast a ton of bullets with MML thinking I'd burn through them in these cooler months but especially now with a new .338 WM I won't be exhausting these before warmth then heat sets in. I can toss a few hundred back into the pot but was wondering how MML holds up in the hotter months. I dealt with it years ago but can't recall what I did, maybe Ben's red? MML should be able to handle into the low 90's? Thanks, if you happen to see this.

[winelover]

Were you able chronograph the cold barrel high impact shots? If those shots exited the muzzle a little slower, then the increased time the bullet stayed in barrel allowed time for the barrel to rise or whip up higher. Therefore changing the POI on the target. The barrel harmonics could be changing slightly by the cold temperatures.
Cold cast bullet lube could slow the bullet velocity particularly on a delayed second shot where the bullet lube now mixed with the previous shots powder fouling had time to stiffen thereby slowing the second shot as the bullet plows through the cold stiffen fouling. A cold barrel plus cold fouling all drawing heat from the powder gas resulting in lower MV which causes the bullet to be in the barrel longer allowing barrel harmonics to play havoc with the POI at the target.

I have my own backyard range. I've been testing my 338W Magnum, in cold weather that I might encounter, while hunting on my land. First thing I do is put the rifle and ammo outside to acclimatize to the cold. In the meantime, I walk a cardboard backed bank of four clean targets out to the berm. After a half hour, I take one shot at the first target. Rifle and ammo, stay outside, while I go inside. After minimum of twenty minutes, second shot is fired at the second target. Wait another twenty minutes and repeat for the third target, then again for the fourth. By the time, I shoot the fourth target, the cold weather window is just about expired.

I'm using a four power scope, so I can't see the bullet holes, from the firing line.............feel it takes the shooters anticipation factor out of the equation by not knowing the POI. That's why I use four targets. After I'm finished for the morning, I retrieve the targets an mark the bullet holes with a highlighter and record the temperature conditions for that day. Next testing day, I use the same four targets, only changing the color of the highlighter. Loaded ammo is the same lot of cast bullets, loaded on the same day. Do this for four or five days, yielding four to five holes in each target.

I've been at this for the last couple of Winters. I only change one variable at a time. Whether it be a change of powder, brass (nickel vs yellow) or primers and bullet lube.

I've tested three different powders. SR 4759, IMR 4198 & IMR 4895 with a Tom's clone of 200 grain Lyman's (338320) FP.

I tested Lar's Carnuba Red versus Lar's 2500+ lube.

I've tested RP nickel versus RP yellow brass.

I've tested CCI LR Primers versus CCI LR Magnum primers.

What I found and settled on, is that the switch to Magnum primers, consistently reduced the amount of first shot cold weather flyers but only with IMR 4198, using 2500+ lube. Conversely, IMR 4198 fills the large magnum case, the least, of all powders tested. BTW, I don't/won't use fillers.

I do have a Lab Radar but never bothered to use if for the cold weather testing. I actually doing my testing right out of my my hunting blind, which doesn't even have enough room to set up my spotting scope.

Winelover

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Sorry for the OT and dated resurrection but I've just been thinking of this...I cast a ton of bullets with MML thinking I'd burn through them in these cooler months but especially now with a new .338 WM I won't be exhausting these before warmth then heat sets in. I can toss a few hundred back into the pot but was wondering how MML holds up in the hotter months. I dealt with it years ago but can't recall what I did, maybe Ben's red? MML should be able to handle into the low 90's? Thanks, if you happen to see this.

MML will be fine in the low 90s, A problem 'might' come in on a Sunny 90º day when you have your gun and ammo in the trunk of a car for a few hours, and the temp inside the trunk climbs to 140 to 160.