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Thread: .223 vs. 5.56

  1. #1
    Boolit Master


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    .223 vs. 5.56

    O.K., gents and ladies, I am entering new territory on this one and need some advice from the more experienced among you. Will start reloading for a friend's M-4 style carbine; his components and tooling, my press and time. My Google-fu is pretty strong, but need clarification from those I trust.

    1. The .223 Rem. and the 5.56 x 45 NATO are physically the same case, correct?
    2. If so, can I use 5.56 data for both cases? Arm in question is a PSA marked 5.56 with a 1:7 twist. Bullet weight recommendations?
    3. I understand that the chamber dimensions are what's different, correct? (One can fire a .223 in a 5.56 chamber, but not vice versa due to chamber pressures.)
    4. Plan on using H335, have an 8-pounder. Will start in the mid-range of the data.

    Any other assistance would be appreciated. Thanks.
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  2. #2
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    A lot of .223s have a 10 and some even a 12" twist.
    They don't like bullets over 53-55gr.
    The military started off with 55gr. and a 10" twist then went down to 7" over time to handle the heavier bullets.
    On the other hand-
    Some bullets like Hornady's SX series do well with the 12" but can and will fly apart coming out of a 1-7 twist barrel.

    They don't even mention it anymore, but older manuals said to drop your powder charge 1 grain to compensate for the thicker walls
    of GI brass and equal the data in their .223 and 5.56 section.
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    These are two different animals from the same mother. .223 is civilian, 5.56 is military and higher pressure. military has smaller cast compacity, thicker case. Some loading charts say to drop your powder charge in the military case. A 1/7 twist you should be able to shoot 80gr bullets and stabilize them, just won't unless you single load, too long for clip length. If you just stuff heaver bullets in the case you will rase pressures and safety issues. As with any gun just start low and work up and find the accuracy load.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    I don't buy into some of the "heavier brass" verbage... weigh some... may surprise you!!!

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Lots of misinformation floating around on this subject even from so called reliable sources. Unless the claims are based on actual pressure tests and case volumes they are just repeating myths and misinformation.

    The original M16 601 was a 14 twist. Winter testing showed stability issues with the 55 grain M193 ball so the twist was changed to 12. When the switch was made to the SS109 NATO 62 grain steel core the twist was changed to 7 twist. http://bpullignwolnet.dotster.com/retroblackrifle/

    The 5.56 military verse civilian .223 case volume is a non-issue unlike the 308 & 30/06. Within manufacturers specs case volumes are the same with LC tending to have the most volume. Externally the cases are the same. Actual weights and volumes in the center of the article https://www.accurateshooter.com/cart...guides/223rem/

    https://forum.accurateshooter.com/th...chart.3998165/

    When Remingtin introduced the .223 it had a short throater so the claim was ball ammo would jam into the lands and raise pressure. At one time that may have been true, however, today (most if not all) manufactures chamber their 223's with throats long enough so GI Ball will not jam into the lands.

    If it has a 5.56 chamber or a .223 Wylde you are good to go. Same for 99% of the .223 chambers but it's easy enough to check throat length to be 100%.

    Larry covers pressures in post #3
    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...84-223-vs-5-56

    Other actual pressure test with the same results
    https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 12-17-2022 at 03:18 AM.
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  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Everyone above pretty much answered your questions-- but to summarize the important part: The most important difference between 223 Rem and 5.56 Nato is that 5.56 is loaded to higher pressures. A rifle receiver built for 223 Rem pressures should not be loaded with 5.56 ammo, but a rifle receiver built for 5.56 can handle 223 Rem. Brass differences are not consistent over all manufacturers. Its the load that matters.
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  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Hick View Post
    Everyone above pretty much answered your questions-- but to summarize the important part: The most important difference between 223 Rem and 5.56 Nato is that 5.56 is loaded to higher pressures. A rifle receiver built for 223 Rem pressures should not be loaded with 5.56 ammo, but a rifle receiver built for 5.56 can handle 223 Rem. Brass differences are not consistent over all manufacturers. Its the load that matters.
    It doesn't work that way. Modern centerfire fire receivers are built to the same specs. Once the bolt and barrel are selected they are installed on the appropriate action size. The action used for .378" bolt face 222 Remington at 50,000 PSI is the same action used for a .473" bolt face at 65,000 PSI.

    Cases and primers have very defined pressure limits. Actions are mostly designed around bolt thrust. Pressure is one part of the equation.

    GI ball and ball equivalent MX193 & MX855 is the most commonly sold .223/5.56 ammo in the US. Federal was selling it straight from the Lake City Arsenal and Winchester is doing the same. While it is marked as 5.56 there are no warnings about firing in a .223 chamber?????????? Seems like the manufactures and the lawyers at Winchester and Federal are not worried about this issue. Same for all the other ammo manufacturers.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 12-16-2022 at 11:35 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
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  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    bullets? are you thinking your going to cast for this? I for one dont, I have bought bulk 55 grain soft points and 62 to 65 grain soft points, I only load hunting or varmint bullets mid south makes their own and they are usually very cheap I also have loaded lots of blemished bullets and seconds from midway they are usually hornady bullets, and for my purposes they are just as accurate as name brand high priced bullets.
    ive loaded using 335. start at about 21 grains for 55 grain and 20 grains for the 62-65 grain bullets using cci 41 primers

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
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    The difference is irrelevant for your use. Load 25 grains with a 55 and rock on, subtract a grain for 69s and another grain for 75/77 grain bullets. With ball powder you're not winning any accuracy awards anyway, so no sense in over thinking this. Use magnum primers.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by downzero View Post
    With ball powder you're not winning any accuracy awards anyway, so no sense in over thinking this.
    BL-C(2) and H322 ball powder was the mainstay of 222 Remington Benchrest shooters for a long time.

    This ball powder group doesn't leave much room for improvement.

    http://ssaacoffsharbour.org.au/?p=618

    https://www.handloadermagazine.com/h...-222-remington

    H335 and H322 are still popular with the 100-300 yard Benchrest shooters.

    While not at the same level I am getting 3/8" to 1/2" MOA for 5 shot groups out to 300 yards with H335, CFE 223 and AA 2200 ball powders and standard primers with brass that is not close to benchrest prepped. Occasionally I will get a 1/4" MOA five shot groups but I can't do it on demand. That is with my match/varmint rifles mostly with Krieger barrels.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 12-17-2022 at 01:27 AM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
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  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    It doesn't work that way. Modern centerfire fire receivers are built to the same specs. Once the bolt and barrel are selected they are installed on the appropriate action size. The action used for .378" bolt face 222 Remington at 50,000 PSI is the same action used for a .473" bolt face at 65,000 PSI.

    Cases and primers have very defined pressure limits. Actions are mostly designed around bolt thrust. Pressure is one part of the equation.

    GI ball and ball equivalent MX193 & MX855 is the most commonly sold .223/5.56 ammo in the US. Federal was selling it straight from the Lake City Arsenal and Winchester is doing the same. While it is marked as 5.56 there are no warnings about firing in a .223 chamber?????????? Seems like the manufactures and the lawyers at Winchester and Federal are not worried about this issue. Same for all the other ammo manufacturers.
    I don't really disagree. Certainly its true that most manufacturers now are making the rifles for either ammo, and the European (CIP) specs do not differentiate, but it has not always been that way. I just don't we can speak for all firearm manufacturers. The pressures are significantly higher with 5.56 and its up to the firearm owner to check to see whether or not the firearm is suitable for 5.56. If your rifle is labeled 223 Rem you need to find out if it can handle 5.56, but If its labeled 5.56 you don't need to sorry about 223 Rem ammo-- that is my point.
    Last edited by Hick; 12-17-2022 at 02:53 AM.
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  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Ive used recent manufacture 5.56 in a sporting .223 with no issues..... it might have been a problem once upon a time,but hasnt been mentioned for decades...as for ball powder not being accurate...in the words of Mcenroe.."you cannot be serious"

    I can feed my .223 pretty much anything and get combined group hovering around the inch mark.... my go to load is a 50-55grn projectile wit ha 24.5grn charge of AR2206h under it.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy Texas Gun's Avatar
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    223 and 5.56 are not the same they are close the LC 5.56 brass is thicker and i know it is for i have cut them open and
    i watch my powder loads close and in a 5.56 it will look like i put to much in it compared to 223

    as far as shooting 223 in a 5.56 i do that all the time but 5.56 in a 223 i would be careful about that some one would need to chamber cast them and check
    I been told that 5.56 chambers not the same .
    now With that i would think 223 ARs would have the same chambers as AR 5.56 m16/m4 5.56
    and it would just be the old hunting rifles would be the ones not to shoot 5.56 in
    Last edited by Texas Gun; 12-17-2022 at 03:20 AM.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Gun View Post
    223 and 5.56 are not the same they are close the LC 5.56 brass is thicker and i know it is for i have cut them open and
    i watch my powder loads close and in a 5.56 it will look like i put to much in it compared to 223

    as far as shooting 223 in a 5.56 i do that all the time but 5.56 in a 223 i would be careful about that some one would need to chamber cast them and check
    I been told that 5.56 chambers not the same .
    now With that i would think 223 ARs would have the same chambers as AR 5.56 m16/m4 5.56
    and it would just be the old hunting rifles would be the ones not to shoot 5.56 in
    I've never cut one in half but I have compared volume on a large number of different headstamps and years. I have a large quantity of LC brass starting from the 70's thru 2014. The LC is always at the top or close to the top of having the greatest volume. Some of the foreign GI is near the bottom but it's still within the range of the civilian headstamps.

    SAAMI chamber specs on page 68 here https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf

    Various chamber spec here https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-5...een_and_beyond

    https://ultimatereloader.com/2018/08...cts-and-myths/

    I also have a supply of actual GI M193 and M855. It's been fired a large variety of 223's chambers without any issues. Nor have I heard of anyone that has had any documented issues despite the various lawyer warnings.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 12-17-2022 at 04:39 AM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
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    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master


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    In answer to your original question, with a 1 in 7" twist I would start with 69gr. bullets and work my way up. One of my AR's shoot the 69 - 72 grain bullets and the other match grade one likes the 80 grain bullets. The 52-55 grain bullets have never shot well out of either barrel.
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  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    I have a few PSA rifles in the 1/7 twist. They have preferred the 70 to 75 grain Boolits. The MP 75 grain NATO boolit shoots great with 20 grains of W748. I load it as long as the mags will allow.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    on issue of ball powder and accuracy there is a reason directly related to accuracy why 2520 is call "the camp Perry powder"

  18. #18
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    Thanks, guys. More info; these will be loaded with j's in the 55 grn. area. The purpose is plinking/practice ammo. I will advise the owner that 70 grn. j's are better suited to this twist rate. I have learned that this rifle has never been fired. Any ideas on break-in procedures?
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  19. #19
    Boolit Master


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    Hodgdon's site lists a single load using 23 to 25.4 grains of H335. Indicating IMR powders for 70-75 grain j's. Any other load suggestions? I have mostly Hodgdon and Alliant powders.

    Oops, made an error, stand by. Still learning on this one, be patient.
    Last edited by Bloodman14; 12-17-2022 at 10:08 AM. Reason: More info.
    Lead Forever!


    The 2nd amendment was never intended to allow private citizens to 'keep and bear arms.' If it had, there would have been wording such as 'the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. -Ken Konecki, July 27, 1992

    John Galt was here.

    "Politics is the art of postponing an answer until it is no longer relevant". (From the movie 'Red Tails')

  20. #20
    Boolit Master


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    Got it figured out, was using pistol data, not the 'rifle' category. Much better. More research before I go any further!
    Lead Forever!


    The 2nd amendment was never intended to allow private citizens to 'keep and bear arms.' If it had, there would have been wording such as 'the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. -Ken Konecki, July 27, 1992

    John Galt was here.

    "Politics is the art of postponing an answer until it is no longer relevant". (From the movie 'Red Tails')

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check