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Thread: Military bolt action rifles w/reputation for accuracy

  1. #41
    Boolit Master 35 Whelen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    This past weekend I took my never before fired two-groof Longbranch #4 to the range. This rifle is mint. Well, I was aware of being unsteady on the first shot but confident I squeezed of the second two on target. One of the holes has two shots through it. Bear in mind that the first shot was also out of a clean bore. That was only 25m so not benchrest accuracy and besides, accuracy is determined by how a rifle shoots ten shots, allowing the barrel to cool between shots. The rifle also shot hand loads into a tight group so I would say this rifle will be a MOA shooter.



    But Lee Enfields do not have a reputation for accuracy.

    Maybe this is why.


    Oops!

    But in fairness, it did shoot Greek surplus reasonably and I did get it to shoot hand loads reasonably too. Not stelar, but serviceable.
    So many Enfields have enormous groove diameters. I owned a couple of them years ago with this issue and leading and tumbling bullets were a problem. At the time I was using (now discontinued) SR4759 and the solution for me was a filler between the powder and the bullet, I used PSB or Precision Shot Buffer. As per instructions I found here I added the weight of the buffer to the weight of the bullet and reduced the powder charge accordingly.

    I cannot explain how or why the buffer solved the problems, but it did. You might want to do some research here regarding the .303, Enfields and fillers.

    35W
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  2. #42
    Boolit Master
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    In the days of service 303 rifle shooting there was no preference for either 2 or 5 groove barrels .........as kids we used to salvage spent bullets for scrap at the military range ,and there were plenty of two groove bullets.

  3. #43
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    Over the years I've dealt with numerous 2 groove SMLE's that would shoot Mk VII ammunition very well nor well fitting cat bullets much above. Lots of key holes with the Mk VII also. What I found was the bores were quite over size, some pin gauged at .312 - .314. The twos "grooves" were very narrow (totally unlike the wide grooves in 2 groove M1903A3 barrels) and very shallow, usually only .002+/- deep. Never could get any of those to shoot worth a hoot and got to the point I wouldn't even mess with them. Now a good 5 groove SMLE or like my C1950 Mk4 NoII are a much different story.
    Larry Gibson

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  4. #44
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
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    I don't get to the range as often as I should with #4 Longbranch. I installed a 4x scope on it. At 100 yards I have shot 3 rounds touching with it. With irons that came with it I am afraid just hitting paper is marked as success. I just might be my 78 year old eyes. With the right optics I am quite certain most of the old girls will shoot with the right combination of bullet and powder.

    Alas the day of the $10.00 Longbranch rifles is long gone. I suspect up here in Canada more moose have fallen to this rifle than any other. I think it can be said that worldwide the old Enfields be they #3 or #4 have taken more meat for consumption than any other rifle. It has also helped thin the people herd when the need occurred as well.

    Take Care

    Bob
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  5. #45
    Boolit Master
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    I have two scoped #4's, a 1943 LB two groove and 1949 Faz five groove that was unissued. I have shot enough 5 shot groups around 1 1/2 inches at 100 yds with both for it to be an accident. The two groove even has a little bit of heat checking in the throat, probably from cordite. As far as accuracy with jacketed bullets I can't tell the difference. With cast the Faz is much better. I have spent a good bit of time tinkering with the bedding on both. Both have full floated barrels.

    I gave $85 for the LB and $140 for the Faz, it's been a while.

    Dave

  6. #46
    Boolit Buddy
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    Forty years ago, when my eyes were still pretty sharp, I squeezed good hunting accuracy from a badly sporterized 98 Krag with a rough pitted bore. As I recall it liked 150 grain Sierra J-words and a slightly loosened barrel band.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master

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    Very interesting thread. I started my milsurp journey back in 2004 with a K31. I wish I had started back in the '60's. I remember the ads back then. The only problem I remember was that they were selling volume with no attention to condition.

    At present my "collection" consists of 20 rifles. The last is a Japanese Arisaka type 99 that I took delivery of last week. Sad to admit that my shooting has not kept up with my accumulation. I've got dies and components and molds to take advantage of all of them but just haven't done it.

    Most of my aquisitions have been with my younger son in mind. He is a political science/history professor and appreciates these things more than the older son. I doubt that he will ever shoot them. The only one he has now is a Mosin-Nagant that he shot with some corrosive ammo without knowing that it needed to be completely cleaned. My fault for not warning him. Now it is a wall hanger.
    John
    W.TN

  8. #48
    Boolit Mold 300leonidas's Avatar
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    I have a "sporterized" 30/40 Krag that I enjoy shooting.

    Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a load that shoots better than about 4 MOA. I've got some ideas but am curious if anyone else has had success with Cast Loads for a 30/40.

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  9. #49
    Boolit Master
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    300leonidas: The 30-40 Krag is a versatile cartridge that has been shown to work really well with lots of cast loads. Tell us what bullet/powder combinations you've been shooting and then people can make more informed assessments about what might work better with your rifle.

  10. #50
    Boolit Mold 300leonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 405grain View Post
    Tell us what bullet/powder combinations you've been shooting and then people can make more informed assessments about what might work better with your rifle.
    I have been shooting an assortment of 150-200gr Lee & Lyman Cast bullets sized to .309. I've tried shooting powder coated versions and plain cast ones with gas checks.

    I've mostly been using H4895 and I4895 and I4831 recently. The I4831 appears to be a little more promising. Have also tried about 7gr of Red Dot. I've been shooting for velocities in the 1700-2100fps.
    range.

    28gr of H4895 with a 180gr Cast Bullet (Lyman #2 alloy w/gas check) would deliver an average velocity of 1725fps and shoot about 5MOA.

    40gr. I4831 pushing a 215gr Cast bullet (Lyman #2 Alloy w/gas check) bullet at about 2200fps (I think - have not Chronographed this one) has shot about 3MOA.

    I've been sizing everything @ .309 but after making a chamber cast I am going to size @ .311 and shoot a Lee 200gr with enough I4831 to get me in the 2000-2200 fps range. Hoping this will be a decent load. To achieve .311 I'm going to powder coat them and probably no gas checks.

    Have also loaded several different jacketed bullet types @ normal velocities (~2600fps) using mostly I4895 and achieve similar accuracy results.

    That's a pretty basic summary. Thanks!

  11. #51
    Boolit Master
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    I don't try to get to the 2000 fps range, I'm happy with around 1700-1800 fps. I think increasing the dia. to .311 will probably help, maybe larger if it will chamber freely. Your lead bullet needs to seal the bore to prevent gas cutting. Measure the neck of your fired cases, you don't want your loaded rounds to be any larger than that. The neck needs to be able to expand enough to release the bullet without binding.

    Some rifles do better with certain bullets but proper fit is most important, if it doesn't fit the bore it's just not going to shoot accurately.

    That rifle looks like something I would like to play with.

    Dave

  12. #52
    Boolit Mold 300leonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beemer View Post
    I don't try to get to the 2000 fps range, I'm happy with around 1700-1800 fps.
    Dave
    I'm not too concerned about velocities either. Would rather find an accurate sweet spot.

    Quote Originally Posted by beemer View Post
    The neck needs to be able to expand enough to release the bullet without binding.
    Dave
    I think Outpost75's Recommendation here is good advice. As he says, "The loaded cartridge neck diameter must not be larger than 0.0015" SMALLER than the chamber cast at that point"

  13. #53
    Boolit Buddy
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    300leonidas, I suggest you look at possible bedding issues, using jacketed bullet loads while testing any adjustments. For a start you might try removing the hand guard and testing at several levels of tension on the barrel band. Also, if I recall correctly Krags are known to have a pretty wide range of bore dimensions, so sizing down to .309 may not work. Great looking practical rifle by the way.

  14. #54
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    Lee Enfield rifles spent decades cleaning up internationally against all comers. Mostly Commonwealth nations of course, but they weren't shy about going out to compete outside of that Commonwealth arena. The Ross rifle is about the only thing that dominated it. Few of these rifles were surplus rifles that had spent years in the hands of troops in wars. Most were either selected from all the rifles available in the military armory/club house, or stocked up by knowledgeable gun plumbers who knew what they were doing while fine tuning the draws in the stock. I doubt anyone, from anywhere, competing was just handed a random rifle from those in the armory to go compete with.

    I started my one-and-only milsurp journey after foolishly accepting a trade offer back in the early 1980's for my .308 Win chambered Long Branch DCRA No. 4 Mk.1 (for, of all things, my first AR15). That DCRA rifle, like the other DCRA conversions of those Long Branch's, when using DCRA issued military ball ammo, would shoot with any military bolt action over the course. I cry a small tear when I look at what those DCRA conversions sell for now, 30+ years later. And sell probably to collectors - not serious shooters wanting to challenge themselves at the range. The days of inexpensive DCRA conversions (and the later inexpensive high quality Greek HXP ball ammunition) are long gone.

    Some experimenting years later was an education, as I tried to replace it with a similarly accurate factory Mk 4 No.1 from what I saw being offered for sale: chamber and bore/groove variations (and why), bedding, headspace and the nonexistent headspace issue, etc.

    Ultimately, I ended up with my one and only milsurp rifle, a 1950 Long Branch from a bunch found in war stores in Belgium, never issued, the last of the best. With a no-gunsmithing scope mount and a Leupold 24x scope in place, it will group ten shots of select Greek HXP ball ammo into just over 4" at 300 yards off the bench. Careful handloading with Sierra and Hornady 174 gr. FMJs will do better. I had to buy a crate of the rifles and test each of them to find that one among the herd, but that is what it will do. It is untouched otherwise. I doubt I will ever take the action and rifle out of the wood again, least I disturb the bedding within the draws of the stock as it came from the Long Branch factory.

    The bottom line is that, while your average No. 4 Mk. 1 is probably behind other makes and models of military rifles when it comes to buying an issued one at a show or at a store, the No. 4 Mk 1 when you got one selected by a military gun plumber and stocked up (or stocked up by the DCRA or a private firm like Fulton's in England) has more grouping ability at long range than the vast majority of shooters that would be behind the aperture sights. And it will probably shoot over the course equally well with other military rifles. Meanwhile, among the rest of the other No. 4 Mk1 rifles out there that have never been altered in any way, there are others that will provide exceptional accuracy much like mine does. But when buying surplus rifles of unknown potential, unlike what I did, you really don't know what you're going to get, and what/if anything you might have to do if you want the best accuracy.

    One advantage that Lee Enfield owners that cast bullets for their rifles have is that chamber/lead/bore/groove variations in dimension are easily addressed. Simply use a mould and size to produce bullets that properly fit their rifle's dimensions to produce the best accuracy. Even a badly used/abused war horse that saw years of war before being sold off into civilian ownership can be helped by doing that.

    For the jacketed-only crowd, fitting jacketed bullets to get best accuracy out of a well worn old veteran of years of war is a much greater challenge. The last time I addressed that was to help out an old guy (i.e. older than me in my late 60's) who had finally put a scope on his bubba'd Lee Enfield after he finally admitted he couldn't see the iron sights well enough for his elk/moose hunting purposes. Some repeated dipping of the hunting bullets in an industrial molybdenum sulfate solution and allowing the coatings to dry got the shank dimensions of the bullets to where the accuracy improved considerably. I considered powder coating as faster and easier, but I don't know enough about metallurgy to have any idea of what the baking process would do to either the copper jacket or the lead core.

  15. #55
    Boolit Master
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    I have one of the LB 1950 #4 rifles. It is in great condition and a beautiful rifle with a matching walnut stock set. I have not shot it a lot but it does shoot well and one of my favorites. I bought a tin of Greek HXP back when, it is good brass too.

    I agree that Enfields can be a mixed bag as far as accuracy but most with a decent bore can be helped. One rifle, a #1 I bought was awful, after a lot of reading, scratching, scrapping and 200 rounds it shot extremely well. It shot so well that I had a scope put on it. My brother traded me out of it and it was his deer rifle for a good many years.

    I have powder coated some .308 bullets for my Mosin just to try but haven't shot them yet. I really don't think it will help as the rifle shoots hand loads with .308 and .311 about equal, as in 3"-3 1/2" groups on a good day. I need to try some in a #4 and see if it helps. I did try a few rounds of jacketed .308 paper patched to .314 in a #4, it grouped well but it was only 5 rounds.

    Dave

  16. #56
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I was playing with one of my SMLE's with a bullet catcher and discovered that the bullets were canting in the bore. I di get a long and fat two-diameter cast boolit to go down the bore straight. So this issue could be something else that can go wrong in a Lee Enfield. Or with any rifle for that matter.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  17. #57
    Boolit Master
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    Many of those old military rifles were badly worn when stuffed into storage after WWII. It is interesting to note how many No1mkIII Enfields saw service in both WWI and WWII. Same for Mosins, just add the Revolution and several purges.

    Most countries had marksmanship programs. They all generally worked over rifles for competition purposes. The hard part is that setting a rifle up for "Battle" vs "Competition shooting" shows they are two different beasts.

    For example, the Russians specially bedded their Sniper version Mosins. Their triggers got worked, and they got special/tight barrels. They knew how to make accurate rifles when they needed to. The thing is, like everybody else, gilt edged accuracy isn't the #1 problem in war. Barrels that don't blow up when stuffed with mud or snow is probably more important. "Conscript model" 91/30's have barrels that mic 0.314"-0.319" in the grooves. Sniper models mic 0.312"-0.313". You see that with war time Enfields as well. Competition tuned barrels came in tight. Conscript model barrels came in loose.

    Action "tightness" is another thing. Those old Mausers, Enfields, and Mosins have a lot of room to mush mud and sand out of the way. Swiss rifles will jam up tighter than a bank vault if you get grass seeds inside them. Ask me how I know.

    Last is the effects of arsenal storage and make-work projects over the years. Many properly fitted rifles were disassembled and then reassembled slipshod to satisfy someone's make work budget.
    Find a Mosin that was not arsenal refurbed, and they are often pretty good. The arsenal refurbed ones jam and misfeed and aren't sighted in... They were just yanked apart, all the parts were dumped in bins. They were "cleaned" and reassembled without function testing, adjusting, or replacing any of the stock shims. And surprise, they are cranky.

  18. #58
    Boolit Master
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    Well ,there s a funny thing...........once upon a time ,people bought FTR or unused milsurps ,and called it good.......people had common sense in those days.......fifty years later people are buying the most appalling junk stored in rubbish tips in third world holes .........common sense completely absent..........and ,even worse ,burden everyone else with their stupidity.

  19. #59
    Boolit Buddy
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    I honestly think it would be hard to beat the accuracy of a 96/11 or regular 1911 Schmidt-Rubin. I fired one for several years in local hundred yard High-Power matches and earned my "Expert" classification easily..................

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check