35 Remington Load Issues

[MasS&W]

Hi all, it's been a while since I posted (damn almost a decade) so please forgive me if I'm stepping on post etiquette or if this is in the wrong place.

I'm getting back into loading cast boolits for my 1980 336 (20in barrel, iron sights, microgroove rifling, slugs at .357).

I worked up a load using lil' gun powder and a factory cast bullet (hunters supply 207gr gas check). I added hornady gas checks and size them in a lee sizer that I gave a light buff job to about .3585.

I worked up from quick load data with a COAL of 2.335" starting at 25gr and ended up at around 27.5gr, 75% case capacity. Groups at 25 were around 5" and at 50 around 8", shooting VERY high from what I'm used to with factory 200gr jacketed. 100 yard groups weren't on paper. At 50 yards they seemed on the verge of keyholing. Groups were 6" high from point of aim.

Assuming that lil gun is too fast (based on other threads) I tried AR-Comp, which is much slower. All other load numbers are the same. The groups were much better, around 2" at both 25 and 50. I didn't try at 100. POI was 8" lower than the previous load despite being 100fps faster, which I found odd.

My question is: What's the theory behind lil' gun being such a poor performer? Why do they seem barely stabilized? And why did AR comp shift the POI so much, and the bullets are now stable? Is there something going on with a sharp detonation vs a gentle push?

Thank you for your consideration.

[MasS&W]

These are the lil gun load. The circled impacts are at 25 and the dashed ones are at 50.




This 3 shot group is at 25 after dialing the sights in.

[MasS&W]

This is an 8 shot group with the AR comp load. Much happier.

[357Mag]

Mas -

Howdy !

Sounds to me like Mv is too low ! More to the point....too low for the bullets WT and/or length.

If you have reloading manual data for Lil' Gun, you should be able to get some idea of whether your powder charge is too light. Chamber pressure will figure into all this, too....as too fast a powder might peak on Max allowable pressure before a usefully MV can be obtained, that will stabilize the bullets. And, the rifle's shorter barrel length does seem like a valid reason to go w/ a comparatively faster " burn rate " powder.

I've had .35 Remington starting loads using " Trail boss " and H4198 that ( at First ) would not reach the target. I've shot starting H4895 loads that showed multiple in-built grains of powder in the bore; after firing.
These eventually went away, and all 4895 kernels were consumed; once charge weights were increased into the sensible range.

I am currently exploring the lowest practical charge wt of H4198 that I can use, that will provide me w/ both best accuracy and the usefully range(s) I need.

Best of luck in your endeavors !


With regards,
357Mag


The situation might end up requiring use of a different powder ?

[357Mag]

Correction you previous...


".... multiple un-burnt kernels of powder "


Regards,
357Mag

[MasS&W]

Thank you for your reply... It's a little unorthodox but I went into this without any published load data, I've used quickload in the past and worked up a load from there. 35 remington is an "off book" powder for lil' gun, but there are loads to be found on here, I'm not the first person to use it.

Quick load says it should be around 2100 feet per second, but I have no way to verify that, just that the boolits appear unstable. It certainly thumps me pretty good when I shoot and the large pistol primers show it's definitely making some pressure.

[MasS&W]

As to a different powder, I tried AR comp as indicated above got much better results... I'm mainly curious as to why the slower powder seemed to do so much better.

[racepres]

Use Red Dot and be done!!!

[1hole]

.I worked up from quick load data with a COAL of 2.335" starting at 25gr and ended up at around 27.5gr, 75% case capacity. Groups at 25 were around 5" and at 50 around 8", shooting VERY high from what I'm used to with factory 200gr jacketed. 100 yard groups weren't on paper. At 50 yards they seemed on the verge of keyholing.

I have no certain idea of what "verges" on keyholing looks like. I do know that every bullet needs a minimum spin rate to attain stability in flight and marginal velocities may not reach that spin rate.

Groups were 6" high from point of aim. .............. ;POI was 8" lower than the previous load .... which I find odd.

Not what you expected but at short ranges light loads do strike higher than faster loads. Rifles are supported below the plane of the bore so recoil rotates the bore up at the shooter's shoulder. Thus, at short ranges, the longer, slower push of reduced speeds of lightly loaded bullets will have more time to lift the barrel quite a bit higher at low bullet speeds.

Is there something going on with a sharp detonation vs a gentle push?

The idea of a hard hit vs. a gentle recoil is gun writer B.S. The entire impulse of firing occurs in microseconds, it's just too fast for us to detect any such difference. However, recoil pads, straighter stocks, heavy clothing, broader butt plates, heavy guns and tighter grip all does help spread recoil around and slows the perceived impact of firing. IMHO.

[Tripplebeards]

My 1970 336 slugs at .357”. Before I decided on a boolit size I did a lot of research here and it seems like with the microgroove rifling everybody goes 3000’s over bore. Seems like a lot of users were sizing their microgroove boolits at .360” with excellent accuracy. I polished out a lee die myself to .3595”. You see my group in my avatar. It’s a load with a max book load of 40 grains of varget. Shot a 2 1/4” 200 yard group right after the avatar group. It was 9” low with a 100 yard zero. Average velocity was 2087 fps…I call it 2100 fps. I’d tell you to go a 1000’s bigger in diameter and try a few powders. I’m using 50/50 COWW and pure mixed with 2% pewter. It has a BH of 10.5. I am also using a group buy 200 grain HP boolit PC and GC. I have it loaded long to the point I’m just barely touching the lands and getting light marking on my boolits. I never had any interest in pushing my 35 Rem slow as I wanted a hunting round with authority. I never tried slower velocity loads. Started my ladder tests at mid level book loads and worked my way up. The most accurate load came at max loading. It to me has a wimpy recoil at 2100 fps with varget. I do have a limbsaver butt pad installed on it. Was set up for my dad originally who never used/uses it. He likes his 7600 special run chambered in 35 Rem I bought him years ago better. The other key to accuracy imo is the lee collect factory crimp die. It cuts the velocity deviances way down. What kind of crimp are you using?

I have tried lil gun in my old 450BM and had some erratic groups like you did. The powder works better at mid velocities in my 44 mag loads.

[MasS&W]

This is excellent info, Tripplebeards. I'm going to polish out my sizing die as I felt I was just barely large enough.

I'm crimping with a lee FCD.

I too am not looking for plinking loads at this time, this is for hunting, and I want the full potential or I'd have something else.

[Tripplebeards]

I’m sure if you go through some of my old posts from a couple seasons ago I had a bunch of posts on the 35 Rem when I started loading for it.

[uscra112]

I myself fired a short ton of lead through a Microgroove 336 when I was learning bullet casting. Bullets absolutely must be sized ~.360 to work. Ed Harris wrote an excellent article for the Rifleman about this.

I admit to using a lot of 5744, but the best 200 grain load was my Dad's formula of sweetened wheelweights, sized .360", and 3031.

[MasS&W]

Thanks uscra112, I'm trying to find that article, and I'm going to try polishing my bullet sizer (lee) out from 358 to 3595 or larger.

[racepres]

I myself fired a short ton of lead through a Microgroove 336 when I was learning bullet casting. Bullets absolutely must be sized ~.360 to work. Ed Harris wrote an excellent article for the Rifleman about this.

I admit to using a lot of 5744, but the best 200 grain load was my Dad's formula of sweetened wheelweights, sized .360", and 3031.

Yes yes to 3031 (or RE7) for full snort. 3031 gets the nod for 220gr up, at 2100+ fps in my Mauser.. RE7 for 200's or 150 Jword

[high standard 40]

I have two 35 Rems, a 14" XP100 and a 20" Contender carbine. Both really like a full dose of H4895.

[uscra112]

Thanks uscra112, I'm trying to find that article, and I'm going to try polishing my bullet sizer (lee) out from 358 to 3595 or larger.

I think I know where that Rifleman issue is; I'll find it and post the date tonight.

[uscra112]

I think I know where that Rifleman issue is; I'll find it and post the date tonight.

July 1982. "Marlin's Microgroove Barrels Will Perform", author C.E.Harris. 'Fraid I don't have ability to scan it, but maybe you can tickle Outpost75.

Phil

I suspect my Dad must have read the article, because when I inherited his rifle and kit some 15 years later it included a lapped out 358315 mould and a .360 sizer die. Ed would have said the 358315 was too small in the nose, but it was minute-of-deer in Dad's rifle.

[MasS&W]

uscra112, you've been incredibly helpful and I appreciate it!

Now to track down that article...