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Thread: I assume the lee factory crimp die is not to be used with oversized cast boolits?

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I assume the lee factory crimp die is not to be used with oversized cast boolits?

    I loaded up some oversized Cast 10 mm sized at .404 the other day. I barely flared the cases…maybe I needed to flare them more? Anyways I seated my bullets and someone dropped right into my Glock 20 chamber without having to knock the flare down flush and some would not. Instead of using my Hornaday crimp die which I used before I used my Lee crimp die. The Hornady die did not resize my Cast Boolits that were .402 and stayed the same .402 size after knocking the case bell back flush. The lee I didn’t even use the crimp. Just from running my loaded .404” loaded boolits up the die resized them to .400”. Not good since my barrel slugged at .4005” and I was getting leading with .402” sized boolits. I have since polished the inside of my barrel and wanted to try a larger boolit to see if the leading will go away. I will try and load up a dummy round and smooth out the case bell with the Hornady crimp die. I did notice that the boolits seated with a pretty good amount of pressure and made a swaging noise when seating into the cases. I loaded two different alloys to try. 11 BH in brass cases and 12.5BH in brass cases with the same results. Any suggestions? I would assume load a dummy round, crimp with the Hornady die, pull and measure is my next step?

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    I'm assuming you have the Lee 4 die set for the 10mm cartridge. Seat a boolet with their seating die. Now readjust that die so that it crimps. ( seating stem moves up in the die and die body moves down in the press.) Adjust that die so it removes the crimp and applies the amount of taper crimp you want. See if it "plunks" in your barrel. If it does pull the boolet and see if it was swaged down.

    If that cures the problem you can order a Lee seating die to use for crimping, continue to use your Hornady crimping die, or work at modifying the Lee FCD by either removing the carbide ring or enlarging it enough to avoid swaging your boolets.
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  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master


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    It is very possible your neck tension is too great for that size and your brass is sizing the bullets down. An NOE .403" expander plug would be the one to try. I don't see where you mention what flaring die you are using, but if it is a Lee it also doubles as an expander plug. That die works best with plenty of flare, which sends the plug deeper. I usually set my flare so it just barely fits inside the seating die.

    An alternative you can try is to take the crimping sleeve out of your Lee carbide crimp die, and use the die body to size your brass. The sizing ring on the FCD is considerably larger than a normal sizing die. It normally is too big to use alone for a sizing die, but it just might work with .404" bullets.

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I just got done pulling, re sizing, and reloading the batch. I measured the left over brass I had loaded with from the first batch. The outside neck flare was only .423". I seated a .404 boolit without crimping and sized it down to .402. I then flared some brass to .428. The boolits seated much easier. I didn't pull any to measure from just seating with the .428 out side flared brass. I then adjusted my hornady crimp adjustment down till my loads would drop right in loaded at 1.269". I had to push the bell in to .425". Any larger and they would not drop downloaded and flush. Some of the ammo won't drop out loosely like Jword ammo does but it drops right in flush every round. I pulled one and it did get sized down to .403". So thats the largest imo I am going to be able to get away with. I loaded what I had left to test which were 18 11bh 16/1 alloy and 7 of the 12.5 bh coww. I'll shoot them next week after our gun deer seasons are over. If I get no leading I'll try the same green dot loads at .402. Hopefully it was just the unique 7 grain load giving me issues or a burr I Hopefully polished out.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy 6string's Avatar
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    Sounds like your sizing die is undersized for your desired use.
    This is not uncommon. Most die makers seem to believe putting a death grip on a jacketed bullet is the only consideration in manufacturing a carbide sizing die.
    It's not the amount of flare that's swaging the bullet to a reduced diameter, it's that the internal diameter of the case body is too small for your bullet diameter.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master wilecoyote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6string View Post
    Sounds like your sizing die is undersized for your desired use.
    This is not uncommon. Most die makers seem to believe putting a death grip on a jacketed bullet is the only consideration in manufacturing a carbide sizing die.
    It's not the amount of flare that's swaging the bullet to a reduced diameter, it's that the internal diameter of the case body is too small for your bullet diameter.
    ^^^^^ I fully agree: in my case the worst offenders are the Redding in .357 mag, and I cannot understand the meaning of their design.
    real funny shape after seating my Lee sized .358 cast, and I don't think it contributed to anything better: neither the accuracy nor the extraction from the cylinder, and the last pass. in LFC makes them even more ridiculous.
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    I might get flamed for this one, but I don't use the Lee FCD for any pistol calibers. It works great for 99% of my rifle caliber stuff, but I'll never use it again for crimping any autoloading pistol stuff. And if you are loading mixed brass, your flare is likely going to be all over the place for each different brand of brass. I would suggest just using your taper crimp die, flare properly, and measure them accordingly. My $.02, and you can keep the change.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    How big of a Flare should bell the case mouth out to? Obviously a larger bell doesn’t size my boolits down as much…or at all vs a mild flare. Never ran into this issue before. Maybe because most if my cast boolits I load have GCs?

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    Boolit Grand Master


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    Maybe a gas check has to do with it, as does harder alloys. Did you try sizing some cases with the Lee FCD yet?

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    The only lee die I have is the factory crimp die. I basically bought it to use as a bulge buster. When I ran my loaded ammo through it the other day that wouldn’t plunk it squeezed my .404 bullets down to .400… and that’s without adding a crimp. It was just running it up and down in the die with the crimp not even adjusted down. So that the factory crimp die as a pretty tight chamber body apparently. At least now using the Hornaday crimp die it only sized down from .404 to .403. I had to squeeze it down to pass the plunk test. The outside neck diameter had to crimp down to .425” or it wouldn’t “plunk.”

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Right, so try this. Take the knob out of the top, and dump the crimping sleeve out of the die. Then thread the die body only into your press until it touches the shell holder. Size a fired case using that as your sizing die. The sizing ring in the FCD is larger than a normal sizing die, but it is the same carbide material, same design. It won't provide enough neck tension with a normal .401" bullet, but it may be just the ticket for you and .404" bullets.

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I’ll have to order another die if that’s the case because I wanna keep lee FCD for bulge busting… but a good tip thanks. If I don’t get any leading with the ones I just loaded up that squeezed down to .403 I will load some again at .402 sized boolits with that same green dot powder load and check for leading. If they lead at least I’ll know that .403 is the size I need to run.

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master


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    You can still use it for bulge busting. All I'm saying to do is use that die as your sizing die. You don't have to modify the die at all.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I find these discussions interesting.
    I suspect Lee must have issues with differing dimensions on their factory crimp handgun dies. I own FCD dies for 38 Special, 357 Mag, 9mm, 40S&W, and 45ACP.
    I fully believe the reports that the die is squeezing down the boolit diameter. I have just been extremely lucky in that NONE of the FCD dies I own do that.
    Maybe I should go buy a lottery ticket.

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    Boolit Master wilecoyote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    Right, so try this. Take the knob out of the top, and dump the crimping sleeve out of the die. Then thread the die body only into your press until it touches the shell holder. Size a fired case using that as your sizing die. The sizing ring in the FCD is larger than a normal sizing die, but it is the same carbide material, same design. It won't provide enough neck tension with a normal .401" bullet, but it may be just the ticket for you and .404" bullets.
    MSM, Thanks about this (new for me) tip !
    Food is overrated. A nice rifle is way more important.
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  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    I find these discussions interesting.
    I suspect Lee must have issues with differing dimensions on their factory crimp handgun dies. I own FCD dies for 38 Special, 357 Mag, 9mm, 40S&W, and 45ACP.
    I fully believe the reports that the die is squeezing down the boolit diameter. I have just been extremely lucky in that NONE of the FCD dies I own do that.
    Maybe I should go buy a lottery ticket.
    Well it depends. The sizing ring in the FCD has to be a set diameter, and I'm thinking the goal is usually just under the SAMMI maximum cartridge dimensions. Don't quote me, but it appears for 10mm auto, that diameter is .425", so lets say the Lee FCD sizes to .424". There will be some tolerance too, so it might be a little smaller, probably not bigger. It's been a while since I measured, but I think a normal .401" bullet in a normal case is around .420" diameter. You are likely never going to run into problems like that. Now lets say you got a FCD a little smaller, say .422". Now when you try and use .403" or .404" bullets it will size them down when you crimp. Even in an ideal world, it is no stretch to find brass a little thicker, and with .404" bullets it is not hard to imagine it causing issues.

    For most people, with most bullets and brass, the Lee carbide FCD's work great. I've never ran into the situation where the sized my bullets down either. I also don't use them as much either, since most revolver rounds can be done with the Lee collet crimp die which is a better design. I do still use the carbide FCD for semi auto handgun rounds though.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Well I didn’t read all the other replies, but I’d say first off you need a Lee universal expander die and one of these:

    https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop...00-p-exp-plug/

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    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I did back the crimp all the way out in the lee FCD and ran a loaded round up and through. It squeezed it to .423” on the outside and my .404” boolit to .400”. That’s what I originally posted. Maybe I’m not following but backing the time all the way out I would sure think would be the same. I also did run ALL of my brass through the budge buster before loading but I did also size them first in the Hornady. So my Lee FCD must be a little smaller than it should be becuase it sized my brass case necks to .423” loaded without any crimp. I had them at .425” before I ran them up and through.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master


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    If that is the case, there is a very good chance what I suggested will work. You will need fired cases for it, then size them using that FCD. That should give you .002" to .003" neck tension. You will need to use the Hornady die to crimp, but that will be one way to try .404" bullets to see if they work.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master wilecoyote's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    If that is the case, there is a very good chance what I suggested will work. You will need fired cases for it, then size them using that FCD. That should give you .002" to .003" neck tension. You will need to use the Hornady die to crimp, but that will be one way to try .404" bullets to see if they work.
    tested: big difference between sizing with the FCD without internal bushing and sizing with a much more restrictive Redding sizing die.
    my cases are much happier, now.
    big bonus:...suddenly, sized in this way, none of my .357 cases need to be trimmed , but all are still comfortably accepted in the cylinder.

    (today 12.22.22 I tried with M27 6" a consistent number of cast 158 g.c.semi wadcutter and 148 plain base wadc. _ brass sized using the modified LFCD and crimped in the second step.
    concentration of groups was tighter than using LFCD the traditional way)_

    Thanks again !
    Last edited by wilecoyote; 12-22-2022 at 02:57 PM.
    Food is overrated. A nice rifle is way more important.
    Rob

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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GC Gas Check