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Thread: PLEASE reload with BP subtitute Tripple Seven 3F

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy Brokenbear's Avatar
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    PLEASE reload with BP subtitute Tripple Seven 3F

    I've been reading back thru the history of this thread about rimfire and specifically reloading and crafting munitions for rimfire ammunition calibers no longer factory available ..I cringe when smokeless is the powder of choice simply because it is not your friend in EITHER too much or TOO LITTLE amounts ..it can pressure spike on both ends of the scale where as real black powder or Hodgdon Triple Seven black powder substitute will not spike ..and I suggest the Triple Seven because you can clean your gun as though you used smokeless powder rather than the water flushing and soap real black powder or Pyrodex require

    Besafe guys and experiment with low pressure powders in these old guns

    Bear

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Probably 99% of us who shoot the old rimfires using adapters, CF conversions, or whatever are using judicious loads of smokeless with no trouble whatsoever. Very small charges of smokeless cannot "cause pressure spikes". It is very necessary to guard against double charging a case, of course. And going too low risks sticking a bullet in the barrel.

    I do personally draw a line against using nailgun loads in the .32s and under. Too tempting to use the higher energy loads where one shouldn't, and punching the spent ones out is hard on the adapters.

    Triple Seven is notorious for having a very short shelf life, even when stored according to mfgrs instructions. Given that I don't load very many rounds in a year, I'd have to throw out more than half of any that I were to buy.

    YMMV, of course.
    Cognitive Dissident

  3. #3
    Boolit Master scattershot's Avatar
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    Do you load it like black? Scoop a case full and seat a bullet? How about lube?
    "Experience is a series of non-fatal mistakes"


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  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy Brokenbear's Avatar
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    You are right in a way and I am wrong in a way ..
    I freely admit I am not up to speed on adapters and as far as the shelf life of T7 I also freely admit I do not have a can open very long until it is gone so I cannot comment as to shelf but I still call it good advice

    The correction however for safety's sake is though it is correct to say small amounts of FAST smokeless powders do not appear to cause the second pressure wave and detonation of higher than chamber pressures but occurring somewhere down down the thin barrel can and will happen with some powders ..ball type powder being susceptible as well as medium to slow powders loaded below beginning recommendations ..

    So the question that came to my mind when I made the post was ... how many folks who might want to shoot great grandpa's 44RF XYZ knows the of powder burn charts ..even then I cannot recall them being segregated by anything other than fast to slow in order ..so where do you draw the line.. even if said prospective shooter had a burn rate chart ..that would say above this line do not under load this powder below suggested starting loads ..I realize there is a lot more to this that involve throat/ bullet sizing, bore condition, bullet weight, primer heat range, case size, air space in a case, powder position, primer heat burning powder burn retardant off powder etc etc

    So I am just saying yes it takes a perfect storm to create secondary pressure (read detonation) so instead of you and I trying to name every way it could and could not happen is to move folks to a powder that no perfect storm can occur??

    Bear

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy Brokenbear's Avatar
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    Me thinks you are being tongue in cheek but an honest answer is i would weigh the charge.. load the bullet and then dip to the brass the bullet in a melted 50/50 bee's wax and olive oil ..if you get too thick of a lube coat heat your bullets before dipping, dip faster or drop to 25 beeswax/75 olive oil (by weight by the way)

    If you are using a modern internal lube grooved bullet still use the above dip before loading the bullet ..in either case I make a sizer from a block of 3/4" plywood..drill the caliber appropriate sized hole and line it with flared brass shimstock and push the bullet thru
    In the case of a loaded lubed round I again use brass shimstock 3/8" wide do a wrap at the rim of the case and push up over the bullet ..

    Bear

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brokenbear View Post

    The correction however for safety's sake is though it is correct to say small amounts of FAST smokeless powders do not appear to cause the second pressure wave and detonation of higher than chamber pressures but occurring somewhere down down the thin barrel can and will happen with some powders ..ball type powder being susceptible as well as medium to slow powders loaded below beginning recommendations ..
    You can't be serious. This is just so much hogwash. Mixed 50-50 with old wives' tales about the mythical SEE, (Secondary Explosion Effect) that was debunked years ago. "Secondary pressure waves" indeed, forsooth.
    Cognitive Dissident

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    You can't be serious. This is just so much hogwash. Mixed 50-50 with old wives' tales about the mythical SEE, (Secondary Explosion Effect) that was debunked years ago. "Secondary pressure waves" indeed, forsooth.
    That is so.....constantly amazes me the "old wives' tales about the mythical SEE, (Secondary Explosion Effect) that was debunked years ago. "Secondary pressure waves" hang on and are so often repeated........ forsooth indeed!
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy Brokenbear's Avatar
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    Well we can surely make this go away once and for all ..Either one of you boolit grand masters can post the empirical evidence or any other documented evidence or tests that the "phenomenon" of low powder quantities in large volume containment may or may not cause unexpected pressure spikes would be of benefit to all and very welcome

    I for one cannot fathom there being enough energy in 1, 2, 3, 4 grains of any powder to do harm to a firearm yet powder companies warn about low quantity powder loads to this day

    So unequivocal evidence that this bitch is dead would indeed be welcome by all

    Bear

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brokenbear View Post
    Well we can surely make this go away once and for all ..Either one of you boolit grand masters can post the empirical evidence or any other documented evidence or tests that the "phenomenon" of low powder quantities in large volume containment may or may not cause unexpected pressure spikes would be of benefit to all and very welcome

    I for one cannot fathom there being enough energy in 1, 2, 3, 4 grains of any powder to do harm to a firearm yet powder companies warn about low quantity powder loads to this day

    So unequivocal evidence that this bitch is dead would indeed be welcome by all

    Bear
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  10. #10
    Boolit Master

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    FWIW - I'm not a fan of T7. My BP substitute of choice for my reloadable rimfires in Blackhorn 209. I've found it to be consistent and accurate. It gives lower velocities than real black, but I'm fine with that. I probably reload more vintage rimfire cartridges than most people - including .25, 32, 38, 41, 44 and 50s. On my very early guns like my 1864 Ballard 44RF, I stay away from smokeless. But on later guns like my .25 Stevens rolling blocks, I have no problem using moderate smokeless loads. Generally speaking, for pistol size rifle cartridges Reloader 7 is my choice of smokeless. It is a bulk powder that fills the case (I start at 70% fill and work up) and has proven safe and very accurate for me. The late John Kort did extensive testing with the .44-40 and found a full case of Reloader 7 was about equal in pressure and velocity to the original black powder cartridges of the 1870 - 1880 period. While I do not have the ability to pressure test, I've found similar velocity results for reloadable rimfire cartridges too. No signs of excess pressure either.

    Fabricating/reloading vintage rimfire ammunition is not for the novice or casual reloader. It takes experience, skill, special tools, patience and care. Not many are willing to venture down this road. But for the most part, those who do are experienced and understand the hazards and take due care. So IMHO, black is the safest. But there are smokeless powders that have proven safe, consistent and accurate in old reloadable rimfires too.

    Steve

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    @Brokenbear:

    Sent you a P/M
    Cognitive Dissident

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    It’s my understanding that the SEE phenomenon shows up very occasionally in what is called “overbore” cartridges, loaded with lower-than-recommended starting loads of very slow smokeless powders. People have noticed it in cartridges as small as the .243 Winchester, although the powder quantity is only sufficient to cause an occasional flattened primer or sticky extraction.

    Where it can get catastrophic is in very large cases in small calibers, like a .30-378. A 100-gr charge of some 20mm cannon powder might be a starting load for such a round. Putting 75 gr in for a “mild” load might cause the occasional rifle blowup. The modeling used to explain the phenomenon isn’t very satisfactory, since it doesn’t happen every time. When it does, though, it can certainly wreck a rifle, whatever the putative mechanism.

    Where it’s gotten ridiculous is when it’s used to describe situations that have nothing to do with overbore cartridges/slow powders and everything to do with carelessness on the loader’s or shooter’s part. And aggravated by “authoritative” gun writers in the throes of writers’ block with a deadline looming. The occasional revolver damage with wadcutter target loads of 3.8 gr Bullseye was the first place I saw this notion being ventured in the gun mags. “Oh, yeah—that’s a real light load; gotta be careful; goes SEE sometimes.” The .38 Special is not an overbore cartridge, Bullseye is not a “slow” powder, but since the writer skimmed a SEE report that had a cartridge with an underload of powder blowing up a rifle, that’s gotta be the reason.

    It’s certainly a more palatable “reason” for the person involved than the possibility of an overcharge or squib and stuck bullet followed by a normal charge. Lets him and his possibly suspect loading practices completely off the hook.

    This excuse came into full flower in the 90s, with the massive popularity of Cowboy Action Shooting. I used to peruse the SASS site, and see the old hands recommend Dillon (“Dillion,” in the vernacular) loading machines to beginners better suited with Lee Loaders until they gained some experience. The excellence of the equipment and the fact that God watches over us all allowed the majority to say, “That’s what I started with, and I did fine; you can, too.” But, in an odd example of coincidence, threads entitled “My shootin’ arn blew up!!” started appearing and proliferating. With, of course, much speculation by posters as to the cause.

    Ditto for those speed demons who routinely sent their brand new revolvers to some gunsmith to make the cocking faster and the trigger lighter. More reports of blown-up guns—what, oh, what, could be the reason?

    Well, there it was—light powder charges and “SEE.” The idea that someone yanking on a lever without paying attention to the loading process, or that an action job might be nice and smooth for normal cocking but might be less than positive trying to lock a cylinder spinning at 500 rpm, would lead unpleasantly to the human element, and that was best avoided, as far as the principals were concerned. Any poster suggesting this would be labeled a troll, and hoorawed out of Dodge.

    A 75-gr charge of cannon powder in a big rifle case might be an “underload,” but it is still a lot of powder, and if it doesn’t burn as expected can do a lot of damage. A few grains of fast-burning pistol powder in a big cylindrical case is not the same situation, whatever the rationale.

    So the solution, whether in routine or experimental loading, is watchful wariness by the principal. Anything can be loaded safely if the operator does the background research, watches the signs, is guided by experience, and approaches any new endeavor (as Elmer Keith described it) like a three-legged coyote investigating a baited trap. Risks are there to be managed. Not ignored; not bulled through unthinkingly, not run away from screaming, but managed. This is how much of our standardized loading data was generated in the first place.

    For the OP, I myself have managed to loosen a few primer pockets in very expensive .22-15-60 cases using Triple 7. But I was careful, and nothing worse happened.

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    The phenomenon, in a nutshell, is that the primer blast drives the bullet into the leade, where it stops, before the large charge of slow powder has a chance to ignite. Once it finally does...whoops!.....there's a bore obstruction.

    There was an excellent thread on this on Cast Boolits some time ago, but I can't turn it up. I DID however cut-n-paste it into a Word file that could be emailed.
    Cognitive Dissident

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brokenbear View Post
    Well we can surely make this go away once and for all ..Either one of you boolit grand masters can post the empirical evidence or any other documented evidence or tests that the "phenomenon" of low powder quantities in large volume containment may or may not cause unexpected pressure spikes would be of benefit to all and very welcome

    I for one cannot fathom there being enough energy in 1, 2, 3, 4 grains of any powder to do harm to a firearm yet powder companies warn about low quantity powder loads to this day

    So unequivocal evidence that this bitch is dead would indeed be welcome by all

    Bear
    I share my fellow members' reluctance to go through the SEE thing all over again. I'm sure that all of your questions, and then some, can be answered exhaustively by a diligent search of the Forum's archives.

    DG

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy Brokenbear's Avatar
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    Well some of the above posters and I have talked back and forth via PM and sharing of research and basically a lot of unfortunate events have been hung on SEE .. ultimately it would take many many many undesirable things to occur at one time to set up a negative event with reduced powder loads and we would hope that those who are endeavoring to fire guns of yesterday do so most judiciously using small amounts of fast powder and certainly not just whats handy powder wise! ..
    Hopefully I have capsulized this subject to everyone's satifaction ..

    Bear

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    A point about this kind of loading: For any given muzzle velocity, small charges of fast powder necessarily give higher peak pressure than larger charges of slower powder. The parameter that best predicts MV is the area under the pressure/time curve. Lower peak for longer time is always kinder to these old guns. Poster >ndnchf< has been using loads of RL-7 in his rifles, which is much slower than anything I would have thought possible, but it's working for him. The short barrels of revolvers will still require the faster powders to get anything at all, because the pressure/time curve is so short, but if you can make Herco, or HS-6, or WW 540 work, you'll be better off than using Bullseye or anything faster.
    Cognitive Dissident

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ndnchf View Post
    FWIW - I'm not a fan of T7. My BP substitute of choice for my reloadable rimfires in Blackhorn 209. I've found it to be consistent and accurate. It gives lower velocities than real black, but I'm fine with that. I probably reload more vintage rimfire cartridges than most people - including .25, 32, 38, 41, 44 and 50s. On my very early guns like my 1864 Ballard 44RF, I stay away from smokeless. But on later guns like my .25 Stevens rolling blocks, I have no problem using moderate smokeless loads. Generally speaking, for pistol size rifle cartridges Reloader 7 is my choice of smokeless. It is a bulk powder that fills the case (I start at 70% fill and work up) and has proven safe and very accurate for me. The late John Kort did extensive testing with the .44-40 and found a full case of Reloader 7 was about equal in pressure and velocity to the original black powder cartridges of the 1870 - 1880 period. While I do not have the ability to pressure test, I've found similar velocity results for reloadable rimfire cartridges too. No signs of excess pressure either.

    Fabricating/reloading vintage rimfire ammunition is not for the novice or casual reloader. It takes experience, skill, special tools, patience and care. Not many are willing to venture down this road. But for the most part, those who do are experienced and understand the hazards and take due care. So IMHO, black is the safest. But there are smokeless powders that have proven safe, consistent and accurate in old reloadable rimfires too.

    Steve
    Very well stated. Like you I am not a fan of T7 and a big fan of Blackhorn 209 for applications I don't want to use real black powder.

    Reloading is no different than most other endeavors. A little common sense goes a long way. A hundred twenty plus years of smokeless powder data indicates it's safe when used properly. To claim that smokeless loads are unsafe for these types of applications is rather silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bent Ramrod View Post
    So the solution, whether in routine or experimental loading, is watchful wariness by the principal. Anything can be loaded safely if the operator does the background research, watches the signs, is guided by experience, and approaches any new endeavor (as Elmer Keith described it) like a three-legged coyote investigating a baited trap. Risks are there to be managed. Not ignored; not bulled through unthinkingly, not run away from screaming, but managed. This is how much of our standardized loading data was generated in the first place.
    Stated better than I can.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 12-11-2022 at 06:54 AM.
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  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    three legged coyote and a baited trap....yip Im going to find ways to use that one in the future...pure gold.

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy Brokenbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milky Duck View Post
    three legged coyote and a baited trap....yip Im going to find ways to use that one in the future...pure gold.
    Do you have coyotes in New Zealand?

    Bear

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check