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Thread: Famous 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards Savage MKII is on my bench!

  1. #41
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    Part 9 Head Space and Ammo

    In my last post you saw the target I did with ELEY CLUB, to me the consistency wasn’t there yet. I what to be able to pull groups with this cheap gun no one thought would be possible. So I keep trying to improve its accuracy.

    So now I’m moving onto rim thickness of different ammo.
    This gun has a sporter chamber that will accommodate any ammo you can buy.
    This means it has a large head space.

    We'll start with Eley Contact

    with rim of .038







    Eley Club

    with a rim of .038




    Eley semi-auto .22 benchrest precision

    with a rim of .039





    Now we'll move over to some common bulk ammo to see rim thickness


    CCI Standard Velocity

    with rim of .042




    Agulla SuperExtra

    with a rim of .041





    And the last
    Norma Tac-22

    with a rim of .041




    From this we can see the variation in the rim thickness
    And I have tried the CCI at .042 and had no difference in closing the bolt handle, this leads me to believe that they're still more headspace in the bolt


    From here I am going to make a bolt shim that does not exist for the gun and tighten the ammo to the breech face
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  2. #42
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    PART 10 Bolt Shim

    No shim 50-60 rounds stuck cases
    With Bolt Shim 200 rounds and NO stuck cases, 1st shim lasted 1200 rounds and still usable
    With full length tang captured it could not lift up


    My project Savage MKII-FVT is moving along. I’m just trying to make this cheap rifle shoot the best it can. Recap, I have bedded the action and cut down the barrel to remove damaged rifling and re-crowned it.

    The next thing to address was the loose sporter chamber, this gun was designed to run any ammo which gave it a large head space.

    The ELEY ammo I have been using was much thinner rim. The problem I was having was with loose chamber it would get blow-by gases and with loose head space the gases would get past the rim. And bolt had carbon on the face.

    The only way to deal with this was to use a bolt shim, easy right. Not so, the design of this bolt wasn’t made to have a shim used the way the bolt was cut. There was an outfit making shims for the MKII. It was triggershims.com and was considered Experimental / Prototype but you could get them. Basically they where a full round shim and you would have to fold the top of the shim down to fit the bolt. They did have a write up on this (after about 30 cycles of the bolt the shim bends back up a little bit, it lasted about 60 rounds the bend became worse and caused the bolt to hang).

    This not a good enough option for me! I sat with the bolt apart in front of me for sometime trying to think how I could make this work! Then it dawned on me, on the bottom of the front part of the bolt it had an angled cut that was the bolt stop.



    And if I could use the angled cut to my advantage, so I started cutting a shim out of .005 shim stock. Getting the center hole fit first, had to use a step drill to get it close then a Dremel tool with a stone to finish.








    With that piece made and over sized, I started to make the outside contour round but left it a straight tang where it had to be bend. I left the tang long and when bent down I started cutting it to length. Leaving it as long as possible and fit the tightest under part of the angled cut of the bolt.




    Once the bend was made the tang of the shim was wide and that’s when I started to trim that down. This worked really well, a part that you could NOT BUY AND DID NOT EXIST I made from the Thoughts From My Mind.









    When I reassembled the bolt I applied a thin layer of grease
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  3. #43
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Some famous guy around here once said...

    "...accuracy is journey with twists and turns."
    Don Verna


    I think he's right!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  4. #44
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    Part 11 Did The Shim Help

    As I do these minor changes I see a little more each time. It isn't like one thing was like the magical solution, one thing to remember. I don't know everything but I will try everything is my philosophy.

    Now onto the target, I using Eley Club here and that seemed to be a good ammo to work with.
    I had a good spot on the tuner to work with, you can see all my setting on the target. I was working with .160 to .157 on the scale

    The .160 seemed to be a good setting but I was getting too much barrel movement still, so this is still a work in progress.
    Still need to find the answer, so I will continue the search


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  5. #45
    Boolit Master

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    NICE job on the crown!

    While there's certainly more to it than just the case head design, you might look to see if the higher end part numbers of Federal Gold Medal are still using the dimpled case head. As I recall, this was done to stiffen the case to prevent any misalignment of the round in the chamber when the edge of the rim got crushed by the firing pin. Might help out with your big chamber issues.
    WWJMBD?

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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    NICE job on the crown!

    While there's certainly more to it than just the case head design, you might look to see if the higher end part numbers of Federal Gold Medal are still using the dimpled case head. As I recall, this was done to stiffen the case to prevent any misalignment of the round in the chamber when the edge of the rim got crushed by the firing pin. Might help out with your big chamber issues.
    Thanks, the bolt shim has resolved my issue and running good now. Right now staying with Eley ammo
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  7. #47
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I would imagine that folks are thinking it's the ES & SD of the ammo lot that is causing the open groups but something tazman talked about some time ago sticks in my head...

    Tazman said that as little as .005" of barrel movement as the round leaves the muzzle would amount to as much as .375" spread at 50 yards.

    I wonder what a spread of 68 fps around that 1067 average fps would amount to in vertical distribution at 50 yards?
    I don't have a sophisticated program to find that out.

    I have always tried to tighten up all the associated equipment connected to the rifle and shoot off a rock solid bench. That .005" barrel movement can come from almost anywhere, in fact...more movement than that can occur through all this associated equipment & the marksman.

    And that's not even mentioning the wind velocity, direction & value.

    Bugholes are not the easiest thing to get on a regular basis.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  8. #48
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    Someone here has the signature line, ''Aim small-Miss small''. I took that line to heart when I got my Weihrauch HW97k .22 air rifle. Once sighted in with an Athlon 4-14 scope and feeling froggy I tested this theory and it worked well for me. Range was 25yds. shooting off a bench at a blank piece of cardboard I used to sight in on. I fired a pellet at an unused portion of the paper, then used the hole as my target. I lost count of how many rounds fired, but it was over 20 to be sure, the group measured with a dial caliper was just under 1/2''

    The ''trunk'' of the ''tree'' looking group was the aiming point, first pellet aiming 6 O'clock on the hole. The holes to the right are ''groups'' from a different brand pellet. I shot the ''tree'' group with H&N Field Target Trophy pellets.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #49
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    That's real good with an air gun at 25
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  10. #50
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    Part 12

    From some of my targets I’m finally adding up what is going on, now Charlie would always tell me to get the chronograph and get the data.

    I did that with my tuner testing and also helped in other areas of figuring out what was going on. Now the ammo did have some spread in velocities BUT once in awhile I’d shoot 2 five shot groups with near the same velocities but with different impact.

    That got my mind thinking that there was still barrel movement, I did bed the back of the barrel by the receiver. The rest of the barrel was free floated, now I believe the movement towards the front and the end of the forend.

    This has a .800 bull barrel on it, but the quality of the materials was poor. So I was set on bedding the front of the barrel 2 inches in, I used packing tape to line the forend just in case it didn’t work it’d be easy to remove. But still strong enough it could be left if it worked.

    What I found out amazed me, I had everything taped out with modeling clay inside for a stop.
    The rifle was in my lockable gun stand and very secure.

    I was ready to do this, had the wet epoxy it the forend and put the barrel action assembly in and tighten the screws down.




    Then I barely touched the tuner with my finger with no pressure, and I saw the wet epoxy flex in and out.
    Holy cow this thing was like a wet noodle, and need all the support I could give it.
    This thing was moving the entire time giving me inconsistency








    Time to see if this helped, off to the bench

    Here I'm using Eley Club and Eley Contact
    now I can see better groupings, may not be the correct tuner setting but seeing better results




    Here I'm using Eley Semi-auto benchrest



    So I'd have to say this really helped things, I have to fine tune my tuner settings to find the best place. But the barrel movement was a big part and all the other stuff along the way needed to be done for the whole rifle to work. Still have a few more things I want to do before I wrap this up
    Last edited by Harry Tobin; 12-07-2022 at 08:01 PM.
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  11. #51
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    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Tobin View Post
    That's real good with an air gun at 25
    After buying three break barrel guns with little accuracy love, I did what I should have from the start, and bought the HW97k I should have from the beginning. I got lucky and found a used one and saved a little money, Midway had the scope on sale as well as the H&N pellets. I think the scope is powerful enough to try this trick at 50yds also, but I would be happy getting the groups you're getting with your new .22.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ithaca Gunner View Post
    After buying three break barrel guns with little accuracy love, I did what I should have from the start, and bought the HW97k I should have from the beginning. I got lucky and found a used one and saved a little money, Midway had the scope on sale as well as the H&N pellets. I think the scope is powerful enough to try this trick at 50yds also, but I would be happy getting the groups you're getting with your new .22.
    I have a RWS break barrel gun I got some 35 years ago, I was fairly impressed with its accuracy. I found the most accurate pellet was the Beeman Silver arrow and that was a .177 I believe yours is a lever activated? Any way have fun with it, I'm happy when I can get 1 hole target once in awhile.
    Last edited by Harry Tobin; 12-07-2022 at 08:30 PM.
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  14. #54
    Boolit Master Ithaca Gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Tobin View Post
    I have a RWS break barrel gun I got some 35 years ago, I was fairly impressed with its accuracy. I found the most accurate pellet was the Beeman Silver arrow and that was a .177 I believe yours is a lever activated? Any way have fun with it, I'm happy when I can get 1 hole target once in awhile.
    Yes, under lever. About he same power level as a RWS 34 in the same caliber. A bit slower to load than a break barrel, but very much more accurate. I think the best I ever got with the RWS 34 was just over an inch at the same range and not easily duplicated.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  15. #55
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    Grand Finale

    Well the last 2 things I want to do here is I want to put a rail on the bottom of the stock for the rear bag. The stock have an angled cut on it now and I want it to run parallel to the barrel for any recoil it will come straight back.

    And I’m putting a new scope on it, the one I have now has very thick reticles. I’m putting on a target scope with very fine reticles, the scope I picked out is the Sightron SII 36x42 and it had Japan on it and they have good glass.

    To look through this scope is amazing, Midway had it for $399 and free shipping.
    The dot on this is super fine, fine enough to take a fly out at 50 yards. Now Charlie has the same sight on his CZ and that’s exactly what he did, he said he had bug guts in the target. When I was looking through this at a target it was almost like cheating I could see so well, that’s what I said to Charlie you had a cheater scope the whole time (he laughed)





    New bottom rail parallel to barrel







    and fits rear bag perfect








    Got the scope on





    need to find scope rail to move it back for better eye relief




    Off to the bench

    Got a chance to zero the scope, I used Eley Contact for that, to save my good ammo. Then I ran a card, it was cold with a stiff breeze. Not ideal conditions but running out of good days.



    It was several days before I could get out again because of the weather.

    Shooting season is about done here, winter is setting in, but I had one more chance.

    Now just a note about the cold, I have noticed it has a major impact on velocities on the chronograph, and tuning and velocities go hand and hand on performance. So on a colder day I’d have to change my tuner from a good setup from the day before.


    Onto the bottom using Eley Club
    I left my setting on .164 and could see that was off, reset to.160 a little better. Then to .158 wrong way!
    Then starting going up to .161, seemed better and ran 3 spots

    Still not good enough so went to .162 and bughole! Then went to very bottom right and everything went away on 2 spots.
    So figuring out what went wrong, it was my over shirt I wear in the cold was hanging down and touching the recoil pad, I like to free recoil shoot. Just to show everything matters!

    OK 5 rounds left so I stretched over the stock for clearance making sure everything was clear. And that was it was the best group I ever saw at a .155 group size. And .162 proved to be best tuner setting that day




    So all this work paid off on the Savage MKII-FVT that I did.
    Wasn’t easy but worth it, THAT’S A WRAP
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  16. #56
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I don't know about anyone else watching this thread but ... I am impressed! ...(this last target is CHEAP AFFORDABLE AMMO!) I can't wait for spring so we can see what you do to fine tune it and get some 5 shot 5 group averages. That'll tell us something more about the MKII's consistency after all this work you've done Harry.

    I know you & I have talked about all the subtle things that influence group sizes.
    For general information I want to show everyone a little something about our front rests.

    Seems like the Caldwell Rock is a popular rest for what it is...not expensive but it has a lot of room for improvement for us budget shooters.
    Remember what .005" of slop or movement can do to a group at the 50 yard line!



    Harry and I have talked about improving the windage adjustment on this rest so that it is a very positive adjustment when changing directions of the windage screw. I know we can tighten/snug up the nut but doing that makes it harder to turn. I want my cake and to eat it too...so I want to come up with a modification that will make the windage adjustment 'smooth & positive in movement, eliminating slop & easy to turn.
    I guess it'll be around spring next year before we have something more to say about that.
    Hopefully an inexpensive modification that everyone can manage!

    Great work & great shooting Harry...but how sorry I am that you discovered the 'CHEATER's SCOPE'! ...
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  17. #57
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Very interesting. Nice job Harry....or should I say Mr. Tobin.
    Don Verna


  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Very interesting. Nice job Harry....or should I say Mr. Tobin.
    Thanks Don
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  19. #59
    Boolit Master Ithaca Gunner's Avatar
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    May I use the term, ''Revolutionary'' in a sense? Know it or not, you've created a .22 rifle version of a Canon de 75 modèle 1897 in a way. I applaud the effort, you're a pioneer for wringing out the most out of affordable .22 ammunition. Are you considering even longer range with it?
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ithaca Gunner View Post
    May I use the term, ''Revolutionary'' in a sense? Know it or not, you've created a .22 rifle version of a Canon de 75 modèle 1897 in a way. I applaud the effort, you're a pioneer for wringing out the most out of affordable .22 ammunition. Are you considering even longer range with it?
    I'll have to see in the springtime where I go with this, still have not mastered the 50 quite yet. But thank you for your reply
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check