Cast bullets being swaged when seated in 9mm case

[Thomas918]

I use Hornady 9mm dies with the Hornady taper crimp die. I size my bullets to .358" to .359" for my 9's which measure .357".

One thing I do to prevent swagging is to back the sizer die up one turn (.080"), so the brass is not full length sized but still passes the neck tension test and plunk test. My taper crimp die is set to just remove the bell from the case.

I am using 140gr Hi-Tek coated bullets that I cast too around 12 BHN, these are very accurate and have no leading problems with my Walther PPQ SF and PDP.

About a year ago I started sorting brass by head stamp and use Speer, Blazer, R&P, FC & PMC, everything else goes into the scrap bucket.

From reading lots of post on this forum it seems to me the Lee FCD die's cause more problems than they solve.

Herters, PPU, GFI, Xtreme, S&B, and CBC are some of the headstands I put in a separate bag for use with copper plated. Some had .016 walls. I kept everything that had around .011 walls. My most numerous brass is blazer with walls around .0115

[Kenstone]

Herters, PPU, GFI, Xtreme, S&B, and CBC are some of the headstands I put in a separate bag for use with copper plated. Some had .016 walls. I kept everything that had around .011 walls. My most numerous brass is blazer with walls around .0115

Not sure if you wet tumble with pins but doing just that gets you a very good view of the inside of the case.
It will allow you to see stuff like this:


Those steps are difficult to identify when you measure the wall thickness at the case mouth or a case that has that "black hole as fired" appearance.
Edge measurement:

Deeper in:

If a bullet is seated beyond that step a bulge will result.
jmo,
.

[414gates]

Please refresh me on what an expander through die is.

Last time I used an expander and die together it was a powder through die with an expander under the powder drop. there was never a bullet on that stage.

[gwpercle]

I've been following this ... the 9mm Luger and cast boolits had been giving me a very hard time ... I don't usually say cuss words but this stinker got several in English and Cajun French .

What solved my problems were a boolit mould , expander plug and a gas check .

I wanted to cast them soft so they would expand , I use 50-50 COWW & soft lead (range scrap) for a bhn of 8.0 , which will squeeze down easily if the case expanding plug isn't correctly sized .
What solved all my problems :
1.) NOE mould 358-124-TC-GC .... a 124 gr. Truncated Cone w/ gas check
2.) NOE Expander Plug .358 X .354 (AP) auto pistol
3.) Gas Checks

I cast the boolits , install the GC's , size to .357" , lube with Lithi-Bee conventional lube .
Mixed range brass is neck expanded with NOE exp. Plug in Lee Universal expander body.
primed cases are charged and the gas checked boolit bases are protected when seated ...
the expander plug is the exact correct size and a Taper Crimp applied (just enough to hold the boolit snugly and No More , with the CH Taper Crimp Die ( my dies are an older CH set of steel dies . Even though the boolit is soft (bhn 8 ) the above method allows successful seating and taper crimping . I do all this on a single stage Lee Hand Press but maybe something from my trials and tribulations with this nasty little round might be helpful .
The gas check and NOE Expander Plug (I ordered it with the mould) seemed to make the most difference in success or failure . I can drive that slug over 1000 fps with no leading and it mushrooms like a JSP
If this can help anyone load the 9mm I will be happy .
I never wanted a 9mm Luger but my Dad had a WWII Walther P-38 hiding in his sock drawer and he Gave it to me one day ... what's a guy going to do ... I had picked up a set of dies 40 years ago ... so I had to buy a boolit mould ... but this thing has sorely tested my loading skills ... but I got it by the tail on a downhill drag now !
Gary

[Thomas918]

Please refresh me on what an expander through die is.

Last time I used an expander and die together it was a powder through die with an expander under the powder drop. there was never a bullet on that stage.

I meant to say powder through die.

[Thomas918]

Not sure if you wet tumble with pins but doing just that gets you a very good view of the inside of the case.
It will allow you to see stuff like this:


Those steps are difficult to identify when you measure the wall thickness at the case mouth or a case that has that "black hole as fired" appearance.
Edge measurement:

Deeper in:

If a bullet is seated beyond that step a bulge will result.
jmo,
.

Yes I wet tumble with pins. My capital cartridge cases have a step in them. I haven't seen many others. Thankfully the seating depth is still above where the case thickens up on most headstamps. I noticed most headstamps thicken up to .015 at that point.

[Thomas918]

I've been following this ... the 9mm Luger and cast boolits had been giving me a very hard time ... I don't usually say cuss words but this stinker got several in English and Cajun French .

What solved my problems were a boolit mould , expander plug and a gas check .

I wanted to cast them soft so they would expand , I use 50-50 COWW & soft lead (range scrap) for a bhn of 8.0 , which will squeeze down easily if the case expanding plug isn't correctly sized .
What solved all my problems :
1.) NOE mould 358-124-TC-GC .... a 124 gr. Truncated Cone w/ gas check
2.) NOE Expander Plug .358 X .354 (AP) auto pistol
3.) Gas Checks

I cast the boolits , install the GC's , size to .357" , lube with Lithi-Bee conventional lube .
Mixed range brass is neck expanded with NOE exp. Plug in Lee Universal expander body.
primed cases are charged and the gas checked boolit bases are protected when seated ...
the expander plug is the exact correct size and a Taper Crimp applied (just enough to hold the boolit snugly and No More , with the CH Taper Crimp Die ( my dies are an older CH set of steel dies . Even though the boolit is soft (bhn 8 ) the above method allows successful seating and taper crimping . I do all this on a single stage Lee Hand Press but maybe something from my trials and tribulations with this nasty little round might be helpful .
The gas check and NOE Expander Plug (I ordered it with the mould) seemed to make the most difference in success or failure . I can drive that slug over 1000 fps with no leading and it mushrooms like a JSP
If this can help anyone load the 9mm I will be happy .
I never wanted a 9mm Luger but my Dad had a WWII Walther P-38 hiding in his sock drawer and he Gave it to me one day ... what's a guy going to do ... I had picked up a set of dies 40 years ago ... so I had to buy a boolit mould ... but this thing has sorely tested my loading skills ... but I got it by the tail on a downhill drag now !
Gary

Thanks I'm sure that will help some out. I think using the larger expander will do the most to help. I can't believe the expanders in my brands of dies are so small. I guess they are made for FMJ 115gr shorties.

[414gates]

I meant to say powder through die.

When you use an expander in a powder through die, you set it so that the case mouth is opened just enough for a bullet to balance in it, and no more.

Then seat, and it should be a tight fit.

The expander plug should never be in contact with the bullet.

So how is your expander swaging bullets.?

[gloob]

The Lee expanders are shortish, so even if you use a 38 special expander, it'll be too short. To seat a 147 grain bullet, you have to set the expander so deep that the mouth will flare too much.

You would have better luck with an NOE expander. They make them to fit Lee die bodies. For 9mm cases, I use a 362/358, but I use 358 sized bullets.

The 9mm cases are so thick that this works fine for even 355 jacketed, in my limited experience testing this. Neck tension seems completely adequate, and the unexpanded case behind the base of the bullet prevents set-back, even rechambering a round multiple times and remeasuring the OAL. But if you load 356 diameter bullets, the 360/356 expander should be perfect.

Some of your headstamps won't load 147 (or even 125 grain cast bullets). But the expander will sort those out. When they take a lot of force and come out all misshapen, you can sort out those headstamps.

[gloob]

When you use an expander in a powder through die, you set it so that the case mouth is opened just enough for a bullet to balance in it, and no more.

Then seat, and it should be a tight fit.

The expander plug should never be in contact with the bullet.

So how is your expander swaging bullets.?

It's the case that swages down the diameter of the bullet. Many/most calibers don't suffer this problem. The case walls are too thin for that to matter, and/or the sizing die isn't tight enough to make the case too small in the first place.

But 9mm cases are thick and short and they're tapered. The last bit means that all carbide 9mm dies size the case behind the mouth too tight. And then the thick case squishes the base of the bullet as you seat it. This undersized base can allow excessive hot gas jetting its way past the bullet before the front of the bullet manages to plug the bore, melting some of the bullet and blowing away all the lube. Causing lead fouling, smoke, and inaccuracy.

An expander that is large enough and goes deep enough will solve this problem. This is so prevalent in 9mm cast reloading that it's a sticky in this section of the forum.

[Thomas918]

It's the case that swages down the diameter of the bullet. Many/most calibers don't suffer this problem. The case walls are too thin for that to matter, and/or the sizing die isn't tight enough to make the case too small in the first place.

But 9mm cases are thick and short and they're tapered. The last bit means that all carbide 9mm dies size the case behind the mouth too tight. And then the thick case squishes the base of the bullet as you seat it. This undersized base can allow excessive hot gas jetting its way past the bullet before the front of the bullet manages to plug the bore, melting some of the bullet and blowing away all the lube. Causing lead fouling, smoke, and inaccuracy.

An expander that is large enough and goes deep enough will solve this problem. This is so prevalent in 9mm cast reloading that it's a sticky in this section of the forum.

Thanks for explaining that. I hope that it clears it up for him.

[Thomas918]

The Lee expanders are shortish, so even if you use a 38 special expander, it'll be too short. To seat a 147 grain bullet, you have to set the expander so deep that the mouth will flare too much.

You would have better luck with an NOE expander. They make them to fit Lee die bodies. For 9mm cases, I use a 362/358, but I use 358 sized bullets.

The 9mm cases are so thick that this works fine for even 355 jacketed, in my limited experience testing this. Neck tension seems completely adequate, and the unexpanded case behind the base of the bullet prevents set-back, even rechambering a round multiple times and remeasuring the OAL. But if you load 356 diameter bullets, the 360/356 expander should be perfect.

Some of your headstamps won't load 147 (or even 125 grain cast bullets). But the expander will sort those out. When they take a lot of force and come out all misshapen, you can sort out those headstamps.

I am using a 38s&w expander which I do believe is different than 38special. But I don't have any experience with those cartridges so I can't say for sure. When I use the 38s&w plug they expand the same depth I seat my 147gr.

[gloob]

Oh, sorry. Misspoke.

Yes, I bought the Lee 38 S&W expander plug, myself. I probably learned about it from this forum. For some reason I remember it being too short for my 125 grain cast, unless you wanted to make the case mouth into a trumpet.

Anyhow, I still had fouling, and I bought the NOE plug. My NOE expander plugs fit in my LEE dies.

[Thomas918]

Yes I learned about the 38s&w plug from one of the stickies. Only paid shipping for it from Lee precision's website. If NOE made a powder through die expander insert I would buy one. I think they only sell the expander for the universal expander die.

[gloob]

Oh. I'm glad I got one when I did. That beefs up the price, having to buy a Lee universal expander die for it, now. And obviously no powder-through. But it's still comparable in price to a single Lyman M die.

I just took my 9mm expander die apart to see for myself. Yep. Different size/shape versus the Universal expander plugs.

I guess the powder thru is annoying if you don't use it as intended. I just realized that when I opened mine up and an extra part fell out. A section of brass tube I put in there to make the plug not move up/down!

While it was out, I measured it. Where it reaches full diameter on the end to the step up, it's a full quarter inch of depth. I no longer have my 38 S&W plug, but thought you might want to know.

[Thomas918]

Oh. I'm glad I got one when I did. That beefs up the price, having to buy a Lee universal expander die for it, now. And obviously no powder-through. But it's still comparable in price to a single Lyman M die.

I just took my 9mm expander die apart to see for myself. Yep. Different size/shape versus the Universal expander plugs.

I guess the powder thru is annoying if you don't use it as intended. I just realized that when I opened mine up and an extra part fell out. A section of brass tube I put in there to make the plug not move up/down!

While it was out, I measured it. Where it reaches full diameter on the end to the step up, it's a full quarter inch of depth. I no longer have my 38 S&W plug, but thought you might want to know.

Apparently there's a Lyman powder through die that has expander plugs in it the are pretty close to an M die. I don't have either so I cant confirm but it ships with multiple expanders and works with the Lee auto drum and other big name powder measures

[414gates]

Thanks for explaining that. I hope that it clears it up for him.

Yes, thanks.

I've never encountered this before.

I have often seen slightly concave walls on pistol and revolver brass after loading cast. This is from the mouth being stretched a bit.

If your brass is causing problems with the harder lead bullets, try bullets made from softer lead, powder coated.

[gwpercle]

Thanks I'm sure that will help some out. I think using the larger expander will do the most to help. I can't believe the expanders in my brands of dies are so small. I guess they are made for FMJ 115gr shorties.

That is absolutely Correct ... standard dies are made to load FMJ at .355" diameter , we throw them a curve with cast at .357" or some at .358" ... the standard dies just aren't set up for the larger softer cast boolits we are trying to use .
The NOE Expander Plug .358 X 354 (AP ) stopped the case from sizing down my .357" sized boolits more than anything else ... I would have given up without this sweet little invention .

I'm not famaliar with progressive presses but if the Exp. Plug set in the Lee Universal Expander Die body could be worked into the system ... that would sure take care of the case expanding / bullet swaging down problem .
I still believe the 9mm Luger is a Little Stinker ...
...but learning to get along with it !
Gary

[gloob]

^Standard expander dies are 2 thous under the size of a jacketed bullet. For 9mm, that results in 353, for the expander that comes with your die set.

The NOE you have is 354, only 1 thous larger. That leaves it 3 thous smaller than your 357 bullets. If you pull some of your bullets, I bet you find the base has been swaged down, still. But if that works in your guns, there's no problem.


In my Glock 9mm's, I have to load 358 boolits with a 358 expander to completely eliminate fouling. If your chamber is too tight, my reloads might not fit in your gun. But anyone that has fouling, step one is to fill that chamber as much as you can, to reduce gas blowby to the minimum as possible. My Glock 40, ditto. I need to use a full 401 expander to eliminate fouling... I tried the standard Lyman M die, and that didn't work. (In my Glock 40, I also need to cull some of the headstamps that are too thick for these cartridges to chamber; if I put enough taper crimp for them to chamber, then the fouling returns!)

A 358 expander is not too big for a 358 bullet. Neck tension is still 100%. In most pistol calibers it simply doesn't matter, because the case doesn't need any expansion at all. The expander just needs to flare the case mouth a little, and the expander just centers the case so that the flare is concentric. And in rifles, you normally use a gas check, and that little check is hard enough to protect the boolit from being swaged.

So even though I also use full size expander in 45 as well as 9mm/40... that extra large expander doesn't really do anything good or bad in 45. It's just insurance in case I run into some extra thick 45 brass.

[Thomas918]

Yes, thanks.

I've never encountered this before.

I have often seen slightly concave walls on pistol and revolver brass after loading cast. This is from the mouth being stretched a bit.

If your brass is causing problems with the harder lead bullets, try bullets made from softer lead, powder coated.

My problem was being caused by lead too soft to expand brass enough. Which in turned made my lead bullets smaller.