Cast bullets being swaged when seated in 9mm case

[OS OK]

I like the Lee expander die but in reality...at best, it's a flaring die...it doesn't do a proper job of expanding the neck for the full length of the projectile.
End result...case neck swaging of soft & semi-hard cast depending on how 'work hardened' your cases are.
The more times you re-use a pistol case, the harder they get & the more the case neck will 'spring-back' after their neck expansion...consider that.

NOE makes expander plugs that fit the Lee die body & 'do' do a proper job & there's a huge selection to choose from according to your needs...



This is a bit of a lengthy explanation of their 'use & how to understand'... the way NOE spec's the confusing numbers they use...

NOE Expanders (how to use, how to choose which size, and why)

[Thomas918]

I recently took my loads to the range to test out using a slower powder to see if that affected the keyholing. CFE pistol at 3.7grs with my 150gr produced very accurate 125 power factor loads. I didn't notice any keyholing. I used a .361x.357 expander and used .356 sized bullets. They worked great. Had to fiddle with the expander to make sure I had rounds that chambered correctly but still had 3/100 that didn't fit my chamber gauge(my Canik Rival barrel in my case). I'm pretty happy and hopefully it wasnt a small sample size that leads me to believe that my problem has gone away

[gloob]

I used a .361x.357 expander and used .356 sized bullets. They worked great.

This is also my experiece in multiple calibers. That even if your expander is 1 thous LARGER your bullet size, you still get 100% neck tension.

I personally have transitioned to 358 bullets for my 9's, and I pulled the last of my 356 reloads the other day. I installed some gas checks on those bullets and crimped/sized the checks to 358. Then... I had a dilemma.

I have a 356 expander that I use for jacketed and 356 cast. I have a 358 expander I use for my 357+ reloads. Well, I used the 358 expander, and my bullets seated nice and tight, even though the expander is 2 over bullet diameter. But to be fair, the checks on these bullets are tall and probably cover more of the seated bearing surface than not.

I believe 2 over on the expander will be right at the point of messing up neck tension, normally. But the "1 under bullet diameter" that is frequently recommended is definitely smaller than necessary, and IF your case needs expanding, an expander that is any bit smaller than the bullet won't expand the case all the way and will leave some potential for case swaging. And it won't increase your neck tension, despite increasing seating force/effort. The idea is right; to keep a safety margin. But going even 1 over still leaves a safety margin and still gets full tension. For the accuracy nuts, even with a hard cast or jacketed bullet that won't get swaged, a case that is too small also reduces concentricity/straightness of bullet seating. The bullet finishes the expansion, and the bullet is free to wobble a little compared to an expander plug that is rigidly installed to the press.

Had to fiddle with the expander to make sure I had rounds that chambered correctly but still had 3/100 that didn't fit my chamber gauge(my Canik Rival barrel in my case). I'm pretty happy and hopefully it wasnt a small sample size that leads me to believe that my problem has gone away.

I'm not sure what fiddling you can do with an NOE expander. NOE expanders are pretty easy to set. As soon as you feel the expander step touching on your shortest of cases, you're done. Not sure what else you can do with it.

Yes, powder makes a difference, too. For faster powders you may need harder bullets and you might still not reach as high of a velocity before you have fouling/keyholing. Never used that powder. Unique is about as fast as I want to go for my cast 9mm, if I want max velocity. But my 9's are Glocks with a long throat, and I load my 9mm extra long.

I take it you're doing a taper crimp, to remove the flare? That's the one issue you can have when using off the shelf expanders that are "too big." The flare is more than necessary. Your flare is 5 over bullet diameter, using this expander, and IME you only need 2 if your cases have smooth mouths (chamfer them once, if necessary). Or 3, on rifle cases where you don't want to have to chamfer after each trim. (Or if your guns don't mind a bit of extra flare. My Glock 9's chamber a 362 flare on a 358 bullet, and I don't normally need to taper crimp them.)

[Thomas918]

This is also my experiece in multiple calibers. That even if your expander is 1 thous LARGER your bullet size, you still get 100% neck tension.

I personally have transitioned to 358 bullets for my 9's, and I pulled the last of my 356 reloads the other day. I installed some gas checks on those bullets and crimped/sized the checks to 358. Then... I had a dilemma.

I have a 356 expander that I use for jacketed and 356 cast. I have a 358 expander I use for my 357+ reloads. Well, I used the 358 expander, and my bullets seated nice and tight, even though the expander is 2 over bullet diameter. But to be fair, the checks on these bullets are tall and probably cover more of the seated bearing surface than not.

I believe 2 over on the expander will be right at the point of messing up neck tension, normally. But the "1 under bullet diameter" that is frequently recommended is definitely smaller than necessary, and IF your case needs expanding, an expander that is any bit smaller than the bullet won't expand the case all the way and will leave some potential for case swaging. And it won't increase your neck tension, despite increasing seating force/effort. The idea is right; to keep a safety margin. But going even 1 over still leaves a safety margin and still gets full tension. For the accuracy nuts, even with a hard cast or jacketed bullet that won't get swaged, a case that is too small also reduces concentricity/straightness of bullet seating. The bullet finishes the expansion, and the bullet is free to wobble a little compared to an expander plug that is rigidly installed to the press.




I'm not sure what fiddling you can do with an NOE expander. NOE expanders are pretty easy to set. As soon as you feel the expander step touching on your shortest of cases, you're done. Not sure what else you can do with it.

Yes, powder makes a difference, too. For faster powders you may need harder bullets and you might still not reach as high of a velocity before you have fouling/keyholing. Never used that powder. Unique is about as fast as I want to go for my cast 9mm, if I want max velocity. But my 9's are Glocks with a long throat, and I load my 9mm extra long.

I take it you're doing a taper crimp, to remove the flare? That's the one issue you can have when using off the shelf expanders that are "too big." The flare is more than necessary. Your flare is 5 over bullet diameter, using this expander, and IME you only need 2 if your cases have smooth mouths (chamfer them once, if necessary). Or 3, on rifle cases where you don't want to have to chamfer after each trim. (Or if your guns don't mind a bit of extra flare. My Glock 9's chamber a 362 flare on a 358 bullet, and I don't normally need to taper crimp them.)

Despite the guys on here running fat bullets for their chambers. I decided to just stick with .356 bullets because any larger it was a big battle to get things to chamber. Plus I didn't want to sort brass to make sure I got the headstamps with thin walls. It's too much work when trying to load a few thousand rounds. With my noe expander in my lee universal expanding die, I had to play with the depth of the plug to make sure it wasn't expanded deeper than the bullet is seated to. I found it doesn't bell the case per se but expands where I can set the bullet in by hand and make sure it's straight. The properly expanded case made OAL much more consistent too. I also use a regular Lee taper crimp die now to remove the "belling" and provide a slight crimp. I think the big difference was moving to a slower powder. I did all these steps with my other loads with n320 and was still getting some keyholing. The CFE loads haven't keyholed yet. I've only shot a little over 100 though so we shall see

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Noe has a new powder through expander that works well for 9mm. I ordered the .358" x .354" and the two pack of spacers for my Lee auto disk pro powder measure. https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop...-expander-kit/ I see the spacer kit is out of stock now. I have a Lee classic turret that has four stations. I partially size and deprime and prime my sorted 9mm cases, Then I expand and charge the case with powder. Then seat, and then crimp. I have Dillon 9mm dies. So far it works very well. My boolits are sized to .357".

[gloob]

If you look up a few posts, you'll see OP has already bought a larger expander, and he has done it even better, IMO. Going with a 361/357.

If your case is too small in 9mm, I highly recommend you try an expander that is between 0.000-0.001 larger than the bullet, and compare resistance to setback for yourself. 354 still leaves a fair bit of work for the base of your 357 bullets, and I bet you find no discernable difference in bullet hold compared to using a 357-358 sized expander for a 357 bullet. But you will get minimal-to-zero bullet swaging with even soft cast bullets, lower seating force, and more concentric bullet seating/case-bulge.

The sooner you discover this one-time setup change, the better your stockpiled reloads are going to be.

[Thomas918]

Noe has a new powder through expander that works well for 9mm. I ordered the .358" x .354" and the two pack of spacers for my Lee auto disk pro powder measure. https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop...-expander-kit/ I see the spacer kit is out of stock now. I have a Lee classic turret that has four stations. I partially size and deprime and prime my sorted 9mm cases, Then I expand and charge the case with powder. Then seat, and then crimp. I have Dillon 9mm dies. So far it works very well. My boolits are sized to .357".

If you can order the .360x.356 insert I think you will have better luck. I wish they offered a .360x.357 too. I'm having a hard time understanding what to order to make that powder through expander die insert to work with a Lee auto drum though. Do I have to get both spacers and over travel ring? I have the powder through die that came with my Lee die 9mm kit so I'm guessing that is the short charging die?

[jetinteriorguy]

The die in the Lee kit won’t work, at least none of the four calibers I have worked, including my 9mm. My suggestion based on my recent experience is just get the full kit they sell, it’ll save you a lot of headache and will work great with the Pro Disc. It costs a few more dollars this way but in the long run well worth it.