Titan ReloadingInline FabricationRotoMetals2Wideners
Reloading EverythingLee PrecisionMidSouth Shooters SupplyLoad Data
Repackbox
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 68

Thread: Cast bullets being swaged when seated in 9mm case

  1. #41
    Boolit Buddy 414gates's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    357
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas918 View Post
    My problem was being caused by lead too soft to expand brass enough. Which in turned made my lead bullets smaller.
    And sized down too far to obdurate back up in the bore.

    I suggested softer in case the size difference was small enough to be taken up by obduration.

    I'm going to be loading 9mm cast in the new year, something to look out for.

  2. #42
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    914
    Soft bullets work fine for me.

    I like to shoot commercial cast bullets with a Brinnel of only 12. The manufacturer makes their 9mm bullets at Brinnel hardness of 18, and they recommend these softer bullets for 38 special cowboy loads. I shoot them in a Glock right at the speed of sound.

    I have shot around 1000 straight, with no cleaning. I would run a patch just to inspect the bore, but these loads left no lead to scrub! In a Glock OEM barrel!

    If you haven't failed the plunk test, yet, and you still have fouling in your 9mm? At least try going bigger. Both on the bullet and on the expander. The recommendations for using an expander 1-2 thous smaller is just lawyer talk! If you're neck sizing rifle cases, then you need a mandrel 2 thous smaller. When you are using an expander on sized cases, you can go full size.

  3. #43
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2022
    Posts
    79
    Quote Originally Posted by 414gates View Post
    And sized down too far to obdurate back up in the bore.

    I suggested softer in case the size difference was small enough to be taken up by obduration.

    I'm going to be loading 9mm cast in the new year, something to look out for.
    I started loading cast bullets from a local casting company who used a pretty hard alloy. So I didnt notice a problem until I used my relatively soft alloy. But now that I'm expanding my cases correctly I think I am on the right path. I even have a proper taper crimp now to remove belling instead of using a Lee FCD. My huge variance in COAL that I had before also has been solved by correctly expanded cases too. Even when I was using copper plated bullets from Xtreme I have a huge .020 difference from the shortest to longest cartridge. Now it's within .005 which is great in my opinion since I'm using a progressive press.

  4. #44
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    914
    If you want to get even more consistent OAL, especially with soft cast bullets? You can order or make seating stems customized to your specific bullets. There was at least one company that would make them for you. You had to send them 4 samples of your bullet.

    I don't have a lathe, but I make my own. Most Lee seating stems will chuck into my half inch drill. I buy an extra seating stem for every new bullet profile I load. I grind them out with a Dremel while they're spinning in the drill.

    The cost of an additional Lee seating stem is only $2.00! That's peanuts compared to the cost of a box of commercial bullets or a new mold.

    https://leeprecision.com/b.seat-plug-9mm.html

  5. #45
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2022
    Posts
    79
    Quote Originally Posted by gloob View Post
    If you want to get even more consistent OAL, especially with soft cast bullets? You can order or make seating stems customized to your specific bullets. There was at least one company that would make them for you. You had to send them 4 samples of your bullet.

    I don't have a lathe, but I make my own. Most Lee seating stems will chuck into my half inch drill. I buy an extra seating stem for every new bullet profile I load. I grind them out with a Dremel while they're spinning in the drill.

    The cost of an additional Lee seating stem is only $2.00! That's peanuts compared to the cost of a box of commercial bullets or a new mold.

    https://leeprecision.com/b.seat-plug-9mm.html
    My bullet mold came with the top punch that doubles as a seating stem in I do believe a few brands of seating dies. It's good to know that there's an option for Lee users out there. .005 is as good as it's gonna get for me since I'm using a progressive press with lots of flex in the carrier and shellplate.

  6. #46
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2022
    Posts
    79
    New update guys. My rounds are keyholing badly. I pulled a few bullets and they are still measuring .356. I have no clue what the issue is. Just for fun, I pulled some Federal Syntech 150gr and they measured at .353. They all shot fine for me. Not one keyhole in about 500 I've shot. I also pulled my copper plated 147grs. They measured .353 and never have keyholed and I have loaded thousands of them. I have some unsized cast 147s that measure .358 and am curious if they will keyhole. I am also going to experiment seating my 147gr a little deeper. Anybody have any recommendations? I've read more 9mm threads on this subject and followed all instructions to the T.

  7. #47
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Posts
    359
    Just a SWAG, could it be that they aren't getting enough spin to stabilize? Either via not engaging the rifling enough, or they are too long for the twist rate?

    Strange that copper plated @ .353 are OK, but not straight lead at .356.

    45_Colt

  8. #48
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2022
    Posts
    79
    Quote Originally Posted by 45_Colt View Post
    Just a SWAG, could it be that they aren't getting enough spin to stabilize? Either via not engaging the rifling enough, or they are too long for the twist rate?

    Strange that copper plated @ .353 are OK, but not straight lead at .356.

    45_Colt
    That was what I was thinking. Either they are too heavy to stabilize, not engaging the rifling by being just a thousandth small, or the alloy is too soft.. It's a 5in barrel but I don't know the twist rate. Gun is a Canik Rival The bullets are shorter than the Syntech 150gr(.660) and way shorter than the Xtreme copper plated 147gr(.672). My cast and coated are .635 or so and weight 151gr to 152gr. Pushing them to 850fps.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    914
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas918 View Post
    New update guys. My rounds are keyholing badly. I pulled a few bullets and they are still measuring .356. I have no clue what the issue is. Just for fun, I pulled some Federal Syntech 150gr and they measured at .353. They all shot fine for me. Not one keyhole in about 500 I've shot. I also pulled my copper plated 147grs. They measured .353 and never have keyholed and I have loaded thousands of them. I have some unsized cast 147s that measure .358 and am curious if they will keyhole. I am also going to experiment seating my 147gr a little deeper. Anybody have any recommendations? I've read more 9mm threads on this subject and followed all instructions to the T.
    If you keep trying, you'll eventually figure it out.
    If your bullets are 356, and they're good all the way to the base? Try a larger an/or longer bearing surface bullet.

    The reason the Syntech bullets are accurate despite being 353 at the base, is because they're polymer coated. They don't need to seal the bore as early/completely, and they'll still work fine.

    Just because the front of your driving band is big enough to seal the bore, it doesn't mean your cast boolits will work 100% right. If the base is swaged to the point the OUTSIDE of the case has excessive extra room in the chamber, the case is going to expand when the round fires. And then there will be a larger gap between the case and the bullet. And that allows more gas to jet past the bullet, melting and blowing out all your bullet lube. The bullet will then lose lead to the bore, resulting in fouling and enough of a gap for gas jetting of the bullet. Your bullet is spinning just fine. It's just not symmetrical enough to have max accuracy and stability, once it leave the bore, because it has been gas cut on one side of the bullet as it was going down the bore.

    Pony up for a larger and longer expander, and this problem goes away, so long as you use the right size bullet and expander for your particular chamber/bore. Remember, for a 356 bullet, the expander can be 356, all the way to where the base of the bullet ends up. (up to 1 thous larger will still leave 100% neck tension, but it is not necessary to go larger than bullet diameter). If you want to try a 358 sized bullet, because 356 already failed, you ought to consider also trying a 358 sized expander. If the ammo fails the plunk test, then you can sort out the offending headstamps or try using a slightly smaller expander.

    Quick check: assess the smokiness of your ammo when you shoot it. If you get a small puff of smoke, that's bullet lube that has leaked out before being completely combusted, either out the muzzle and/or out the chamber. If you fill the chamber and leade completely enough, with large/long enough bullets, your cast bullets will not be any more smoky than jacketed factory ammo, at least out of a semiauto locked breech pistol. Revolvers and blowback pistols will always be smokey with cast bullets. So if you are getting noticeable smoke out of a locked breech semiauto, you know you can do better, even without putting any bullets on paper.

    Or master powder coating, and with this extra work you can make ammo that chambers freely in any in-spec gun, and it will still be accurate.
    Last edited by gloob; 12-12-2022 at 07:18 PM.

  10. #50
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2022
    Posts
    79
    Quote Originally Posted by gloob View Post
    If you keep trying, you'll eventually figure it out.
    If your bullets are 356, and they're good all the way to the base? Try a larger an/or longer bearing surface bullet.

    The reason the Syntech bullets are accurate despite being 353 at the base, is because they're polymer coated. They don't need to seal the bore as early/completely, and they'll still work fine.

    Just because the front of your driving band is big enough to seal the bore, it doesn't mean your cast boolits will work 100% right. If the base is swaged to the point the OUTSIDE of the case has excessive extra room in the chamber, the case is going to expand when the round fires. And then there will be a larger gap between the case and the bullet. And that allows more gas to jet past the bullet, melting and blowing out all your bullet lube. The bullet will then lose lead to the bore, resulting in fouling and enough of a gap for gas jetting of the bullet. Your bullet is spinning just fine. It's just not symmetrical enough to have max accuracy and stability, once it leave the bore, because it has been gas cut on one side of the bullet as it was going down the bore.

    Pony up for a larger and longer expander, and this problem goes away, so long as you use the right size bullet and expander for your particular chamber/bore. Remember, for a 356 bullet, the expander can be 356, all the way to where the base of the bullet ends up. (up to 1 thous larger will still leave 100% neck tension, but it is not necessary to go larger than bullet diameter). If you want to try a 358 sized bullet, because 356 already failed, you ought to consider also trying a 358 sized expander. If the ammo fails the plunk test, then you can sort out the offending headstamps or try using a slightly smaller expander.

    Quick check: assess the smokiness of your ammo when you shoot it. If you get a small puff of smoke, that's bullet lube that has leaked out before being completely combusted, either out the muzzle and/or out the chamber. If you fill the chamber and leade completely enough, with large/long enough bullets, your cast bullets will not be any more smoky than jacketed factory ammo, at least out of a semiauto locked breech pistol. Revolvers and blowback pistols will always be smokey with cast bullets. So if you are getting noticeable smoke out of a locked breech semiauto, you know you can do better, even without putting any bullets on paper.

    Or master powder coating, and with this extra work you can make ammo that chambers freely in any in-spec gun, and it will still be accurate.
    I'm not sure if some of that would apply to me because I have a no lube groove bullet that I coat in HiTek coating. I'm afraid my bullet is too soft at the 151gr to correctly engage the rifling. And maybe to small but that confuses me as I've used a standard expander with my .356 bullets that sized them down to .350 and only some of that ammo tumbled and keyholed. The same amount as the correctly expanded and .356 bullet. Plus I'm sure the bases aren't being swaged down anymore because I've loaded and pulled over a 100 rounds now testing and checking crimps and diameters. So I'm thinking the coating and soft bullet isn't grabbing the rifling correctly. I will add some foundry lead to my softer lead to bump up the antimony. In the meantime idk what to do with the 2000 bullets I have sized and coated.

    Edit: I'm using a fast powder (n320) which I read can jump the rifling if the alloy is too soft. I don't want to use a slower powder because the only reason why I use a 147gr load with a fast powder is to make minor power factor with the least amount of felt recoil for USPSA. Does anybody here have experience with keyholing who switched to a harder alloy solve their issue?
    Last edited by Thomas918; 12-13-2022 at 03:27 AM. Reason: More info

  11. #51
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Near the Keg
    Posts
    242
    Reading your updated posts, it looks like your pulled bullets are still sizing down to .356. I still suspect thats the root of your problem. You need a properly sized deep expander to stop that from happening.

    Your Canik has a 1-10 twist barrel, so stability is not an issue even at low velocity. Side note: For USPSA shooting, I use 9mm Ibijihead 168gr bullets loafing along at 780fps over 2.7gr of N320. I have never had a problem with keyholing in CZ, Glocks or Beretta platforms. I did have a friend shoot some of my reloads with .356 sized projectiles which keyholed badly in his Sig Sauer Legion. The keyholig dissappeared with .358 sized projectiles from the same manufacturer. I have since gone with .358 for all my 9mm coated loads.

    Shoot me a PM if you want a few samples of different sized projectiles to try.
    Alcohol Inventory Reduction Specialist (Journeyman Level)

  12. #52
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2022
    Posts
    79
    Quote Originally Posted by Meatpuppet View Post
    Reading your updated posts, it looks like your pulled bullets are still sizing down to .356. I still suspect thats the root of your problem. You need a properly sized deep expander to stop that from happening.

    Your Canik has a 1-10 twist barrel, so stability is not an issue even at low velocity. Side note: For USPSA shooting, I use 9mm Ibijihead 168gr bullets loafing along at 780fps over 2.7gr of N320. I have never had a problem with keyholing in CZ, Glocks or Beretta platforms. I did have a friend shoot some of my reloads with .356 sized projectiles which keyholed badly in his Sig Sauer Legion. The keyholig dissappeared with .358 sized projectiles from the same manufacturer. I have since gone with .358 for all my 9mm coated loads.

    Shoot me a PM if you want a few samples of different sized projectiles to try.
    I went to ibijihead's website. They have great prices especially since shipping is already added onto the listed price. They also say their bullet alloy is 92/6/2 so it's a lot harder than mine.I have some .358 of my cast that I can seat in there and let the recoil spring chamber it. If that doesn't solve the issue I'm gonna remelt all the bullets and harden them up with some foundry type ingots and or rotometals super hard. I really appreciate the offer Meatpuppet

  13. #53
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Near the Keg
    Posts
    242
    Kewl. Looking forward to see if it fixes the problem. I still think its a sizing issue, not hardness issue.

    Just remember, if your brass is not expanded enough with a deep "M type" expander plug, it might not make a difference when you seat the boolet. Although, Ibejihead projectiles are hard enough that they might expand the brass while seating.

    I actually get better accuracy with softer, coated cast boolets, but since I shoot much more 9mm each range session, its really not worth my time to go through the process. So I purchase commercial projectiles in 9mm. Everything else I cast, powdercoat or swage my own.
    Alcohol Inventory Reduction Specialist (Journeyman Level)

  14. #54
    Boolit Buddy 414gates's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    357
    This was nagging at me, and I remembered that in fact I encountered this issue myself, around six years ago, I just never realised then what the actual problem was.

    I used to shoot a lot of copper wash .38 special in a Security Six, so I thought I'd try shooting cast. I took my cast powder coated reloads to a club match, without testing them first. I was amazed at how inaccurate my cast bullets were. The barrel leading took a long time to clean up. Because of that experience, I stopped casting for handguns, and carried on with copper wash bullets. Around that time life happened and I quit competition handguns till the beginning of this year when I joined up again.

    This year, I decided to go cast, but I still had copper wash bullets left over, so I cast a few thousand bullets for each caliber, and proceeded to shoot out the remaining copper wash bullets, which lasted me until a couple of months ago, and the last shoot of the year for me.

    The last few weeks I've been meaning to reload those cast bullets. Then I read this thread, remembered what happened before, and I'm relieved I never started on them.

    Because I was reloading copper wash bullets, I never needed to bell the case mouths. When I tried the .38 special cast then, I put only a slight bell on the mouth for the bullet to balance, then seated. I don't remember what the lead hardness was, but it must have been relatively soft to be swaged down by the brass.

    I have the powder through expanders for the Hornady LnL, and I see that the expander plug can open the case mouth a bit wider and deeper , which is correct for cast bullets.

    This time I'll test before the match.

  15. #55
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    914
    I only have a couple revolvers, and they shoot cast bullets pretty decently, without much fuss, even using a stock expander. I get some faint fouling towards the muzzle half of the barrel, and I'm not sure that would improve without lapping out the choke point in the barrels where they're pressed into the frame. One day, I'll have to examine that closer. I've had random cases where deep-seating a wadcutter caused excessive swaging and bulging, but it was only a handful of headstamps I had picked up and I simply tossed them out.

    9mm and 40 SW are the only 2 cartridges where I have experienced a significant, consistent, and persistent issue of detrimental case swaging.

    In 9mm, I first tried using 356 sized commercial bullets. And I tried the 38SW expander trick, first. That reduced the fouling a bit. Then I bought an NOE 360/356 expander, and even though the expander measured exactly the same 356 as the LEE 38SW, it went much deeper into the case. Fouling barely occurred to the point I thought this might be as good as it gets. Then I went up to 358 commercial cast bullets, and the fouling completely went away, still using the same 356 NOE expander.

    In 40 SW, I had dangerous levels of fouling in a Glock when using my stock LEE expander. I bought a Lyman M die in 40 SW, and that didn't really help, at all. Expander size was only 398. Lyman was nice enough to send me a 403 expander plug for a rifle, which I turned down to 401 with a 403 step. That works perfectly for me, and it eliminated the fouling.

    In 9mm, I encountered another minor issue when using my own cast bullets. They measure 358 on average, but in some angles they measure 359, and other angle they measure 3575. They chamber fine in all my 9's, but I got some shavings when using the 360/356 NOE expander. I turned down my original Lyman 40sw expander to 362/358, and I've been happy ever since. I use the NOE 356 expander now for jacketed and cast 356. I use the 358 expander for 358 cast, no shavings, and they still plunk freely in all my 9's without any taper crimp.


    So in my experience, the flare step must be at least 2 thous larger than the bullet to prevent shavings. 4 thous is visible, if you look close you can see a small gap between the case mouth and the bullet, but it still pretty tight.

    As for the expander part, I get 100% neck tension even when using jacketed bullets that are 1 thous smaller than the expander. The case springs back by more than 1 thous, for sure, and less than 2 thous. If you have bad neck tension, it's the case to thin or work hardened, or it's your sizing die not tight enough to begin with.

    When I use the 358, full depth expander, my 9mm cast cartridges look almost factory. There's barely any wasp-waist at all, to the cases.

  16. #56
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    9
    I added a 38S&W expander plug to my Lee powder thru expander die, works great.

  17. #57
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2022
    Posts
    79
    Quote Originally Posted by slickracer View Post
    I added a 38S&W expander plug to my Lee powder thru expander die, works great.
    Since I also used copper plated 147gr a lot. I seat pretty deep and the 38s&w expander is what I use almost exclusively now. I have bought some NOE expanders for my .357 lead though

  18. #58
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    582
    Check out NOE’s new powder through expanders. I’m using one for my 9mm and once I got it adjusted properly it works great. I’d make one suggestion to make your life simple, just get the full setup including the Lee die. Some of the older Lee powder through die bodies are incompatible, I learned this the hard way and wound up buying things piecemeal and spent a whole lot of money unnecessarily. Also be sure to check available sizes from the drop down list for your proper size. If you have any questions before hand, just shoot them an email and they’ll call you back within a few hours. Great customer service and very high quality products.

  19. #59
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    NE Ohio
    Posts
    2,079
    9mm's and heavy/long bullets are always a balancing act. Expanders are only part of the equation & sorting headstamps will make a huge difference.

    Several years ago I was interested in using hb bullets in a nm 1911 chambered in 9mm. My standard 9mm bullet (green) is a mp 125gr hp. The hb bullet I was interested in (red) is a lyman 35870.


    Not only did I test a couple different hb pin shapes/sizes/depths. I tested/made several different expander. This is what I ended up with for a home made expander.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Even with separating cases by mfg I kept getting fliers from the bases being swaged down. The hb bullet helped but it still couldn't overcome all the swaging issues that happen when seating long bodied bullets in the small 9mm cases.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    No matter what I did the fliers were always there & I'm sure the fliers would of been worse if that was a solid based bullet.
    That was as long of an expander I could use. Any longer and the cases have a bulge and wouldn't chamber.

    The only thing I could do is have the bbl throated to allow for a longer oal/less bullet in the cases.

  20. #60
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2022
    Posts
    79
    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    9mm's and heavy/long bullets are always a balancing act. Expanders are only part of the equation & sorting headstamps will make a huge difference.

    Several years ago I was interested in using hb bullets in a nm 1911 chambered in 9mm. My standard 9mm bullet (green) is a mp 125gr hp. The hb bullet I was interested in (red) is a lyman 35870.


    Not only did I test a couple different hb pin shapes/sizes/depths. I tested/made several different expander. This is what I ended up with for a home made expander.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Even with separating cases by mfg I kept getting fliers from the bases being swaged down. The hb bullet helped but it still couldn't overcome all the swaging issues that happen when seating long bodied bullets in the small 9mm cases.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    No matter what I did the fliers were always there & I'm sure the fliers would of been worse if that was a solid based bullet.
    That was as long of an expander I could use. Any longer and the cases have a bulge and wouldn't chamber.

    The only thing I could do is have the bbl throated to allow for a longer oal/less bullet in the cases.
    I think I will eventually move down to my 135gr mould soon. It comes out to 137gr after coating. It seems like it will be a little more forgiving and stretch out lead reserves. I'm not willing to do is enlarge the throat on my chambers because even though I will shoot lots of lead, my main load will be with plated bullets

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check