Cast bullets being swaged when seated in 9mm case

[Thomas918]

I have a problem. If using a 9mm expander through die, it swages my cast bullets really small when seating. Down to .349 in some spots. I replaced the 9mm with the 38sw plug into my expander through die. 90% of the finished rounds crimped good but the remaining rounds I could move the bullet back and forth and rotate it inside the case. I couldn't pull it out by hand but it still wasn't crimped in there right. I am using the bullet seating and crimping die with no crimp being applied followed up by a Lee factory crimp die applying a medium crimp. I even see the crimp line in the bullet on the rounds I can rotate and move the bullet in and out by at least .020. I'm not sure if I need another brand of taper crimp or what I need to do to fix this

[Der Gebirgsjager]

What does the diameter of your cast bullets measure before you seat them? Should be .355" minimum, preferably .357". If they are within that range, then the case mouths need to be expanded enough to get the base of the bullet started with your fingers. The seating die can be adjusted to crimp--probably a taper crimp, but maybe a roll crimp depending on the make and vintage of the die. Usually this is done in two separate operations, seat then crimp, but if you tinker with the setting of the die you can perform both operations at once. I truly love the Lee Factory Crimp dies and have one for almost every cartridge that I reload, but I don't automatically use them for every job. In your case it sounds like you might try using the regular seating/crimping die and then decide if the Lee FCD is actually needed or not. There are two types of LFCDs, with or without a carbide insert. The one with the insert is engineered to produce ammo that will fit in your chamber, and if your bullets are oversized (back to the beginning--how large are they?) they will swage down when run in and out of the die's carbide insert. The other type doesn't have the insert and crimps only. Of course, the possibility of an unsersized LFCD insert exists, and it's also possible that you will find the LFCD to work satisfactorily with jacketed bullets.

DG

[Thomas918]

What does the diameter of your cast bullets measure before you seat them? Should be .355" minimum, preferably .357". If they are within that range, then the case mouths need to be expanded enough to get the base of the bullet started with your fingers. The seating die can be adjusted to crimp--probably a taper crimp, but maybe a roll crimp depending on the make and vintage of the die. Usually this is done in two separate operations, seat then crimp, but if you tinker with the setting of the die you can perform both operations at once. I truly love the Lee Factory Crimp dies and have one for almost every cartridge that I reload, but I don't automatically use them for every job. In your case it sounds like you might try using the regular seating/crimping die and then decide if the Lee FCD is actually needed or not. There are two types of LFCDs, with or without a carbide insert. The one with the insert is engineered to produce ammo that will fit in your chamber, and if your bullets are oversized (back to the beginning--how large are they?) they will swage down when run in and out of the die's carbide insert. The other type doesn't have the insert and crimps only. Of course, the possibility of an unsersized LFCD insert exists, and it's also possible that you will find the LFCD to work satisfactorily with jacketed bullets.

DG

I have them sized to .356. They are cast from wheel weights so not too hard and not too soft. The lee FCD I have is the one that has the carbine sizer insert I'm pretty sure. All the lee FCD for pistol are carbide. Do you think another brand of crimping die would work better since some of them don't have the sizer insert? In the meantime I will just crimp with the seating die and pull the bullets to see if the swaging is less.
Another thing when using the 38sw plug in the expander die, it does swage the lead less but still sizes them down to .352 to .353. The problem is some of the rounds have bad neck tension. I just made 20 dummy rounds and the rounds that had bad neck tension measured no different than the ones with a good crimp and neck tension. I pulled all the bullets and measure them all. I even measured the case length to see if that had any factor and it didn't. It has no rhyme or reason. So I went back to the standard 9mm plug in the expander through die. I'm thinking of getting a Lyman M expander but didn't want to spend the money if it doesn't work.

[Thomas918]

Update. I reran the ammo that had loose neck tension through again with no Lee FCD and it tightened it up. I can't move the bullet anymore. I also ran another 20 dummy rounds without the FCD and pulled the bullets. They are definitely better. They are still getting a kiss of a crimp from the seater and crimp die. So I guess the Lee LCD is squishing them down a little and the brass is springing back which leads to a loose bullet. This is all with the 38sw expander die.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I had a feeling that just using the issue seater/crimper die would make things better. It doesn't sound like your brass is the best. It may need to be annealed, but 9mm brass is available in such abundance now days that I'd just throw anything away that I felt was questionable. Sorry to use this tired saying but, "If you want to play, you have to pay." An expander die would probably work better for cast bullet loading, and will likely come in handy down the road on other projects. Whomever said, "Start reloading. You'll save a lot of money" wasn't telling the truth! Anyway, it sounds like your problems are about solved---for now. It's all part of the fun and challenge of reloading.

DG

[45_Colt]

The lee FCD I have is the one that has the carbine sizer insert I'm pretty sure.

Most likely, I haven't seen a collet crimp die for the 9mm.

All the lee FCD for pistol are carbide.

Not true, Lee makes FCD for several pistol cartridges in the collet format. No carbide ring, I use a couple of them.

Do you think another brand of crimping die would work better since some of them don't have the sizer insert? In the meantime I will just crimp with the seating die and pull the bullets to see if the swaging is less.

The crimp ring can be driven/knocked out. That will provide a normal taper crimp without further resizing the round. Otherwise, just pick up another seat/crimp die and use it for crimping only.

45_Colt

[45_Colt]

Whomever said, "Start reloading. You'll save a lot of money" wasn't telling the truth!

DG

So true, you just shoot more

45_Colt

[RogerDat]

The NOE case neck expander buttons are a great option. You get those to fit your sized lead and order them .001 under that for a snug but consistent fit. There is a tiny bit of extra expansion at the very mouth of the case from those expanders that makes it easier to get the bullet in without shaving.

Not sure it would apply to the Lee FCD which it seems is designed to swage the bullet & case to specifications suitable for jacketed bullets. Generally doing a number on our lead slugs. Had one and didn't like the results so stopped using it. Liked the results from the expander buttons which duplicate the Lyman M die from what I have read.

Glad you seemed to have found a way to make yours work for you.

[Thomas918]

The NOE case neck expander buttons are a great option. You get those to fit your sized lead and order them .001 under that for a snug but consistent fit. There is a tiny bit of extra expansion at the very mouth of the case from those expanders that makes it easier to get the bullet in without shaving.

Not sure it would apply to the Lee FCD which it seems is designed to swage the bullet & case to specifications suitable for jacketed bullets. Generally doing a number on our lead slugs. Had one and didn't like the results so stopped using it. Liked the results from the expander buttons which duplicate the Lyman M die from what I have read.

Glad you seemed to have found a way to make yours work for you.

Is the NOE case expander a die or is it an insert for one of the Lee dies?

Edit: just went to their website. Lots of options on there.

[Thomas918]

Most likely, I haven't seen a collet crimp die for the 9mm.



Not true, Lee makes FCD for several pistol cartridges in the collet format. No carbide ring, I use a couple of them.



The crimp ring can be driven/knocked out. That will provide a normal taper crimp without further resizing the round. Otherwise, just pick up another seat/crimp die and use it for crimping only.

45_Colt

Can the Carbide ring be reinstalled if you remove it? I would want to continue using it for my copper plated bullets down the road

[Thomas918]

New update. I did a plunk test on the rounds that didn't go through the Lee FCD and some were a little tight. A few I had to push a little for them to seat all the way. They feed fine under spring pressure though so they may function just fine. I didn't really crimp too hard with the Lee seater and crimp die. Can the plunk test be passed if I used a harder crimp? I ran a few of the worst offenders( the ones I had to push lightly to sit flush in the barrel) through the Lee FCD and they then plunked easily in the chamber. So I'm stuck in between swaging my lead down or peace of mind of with complete assured seating and extraction of rounds. Most of my ammo will be used for matches in USPSA.

[45_Colt]

Can the Carbide ring be reinstalled if you remove it? I would want to continue using it for my copper plated bullets down the road

I don't know how easy it would be to reinstall the ring. I can't see why not, as long as it didn't crack on the way out.

But at the same time I can't see R&R'ing it on a regular basis.

45_Colt

[Willbird]

I made a couple custom Lee powder through expander plugs for somebody who posts here. He was happy with them.
I am working on setting up to make them more often. My opinion is that the expander should expand the same depth that the bullet seats.

Lee and Dillon like to use the bullet to expand the case muoth.

There is a limit IMHO to how much neck tension can be achieved and if the case internally is smaller than the bullet either the bullet must expand the case or the bullet gets sized down.

In mild traditional cast bullet uses like 38 special it might seem to work OK, but in my own experiments in 9x19 if the bullet gets sized down by the case then the ammo stinks as far as accuracy goes. One can load a round then pull the bullet with a hammer puller and then measure it to see if seating it in the case is sizing it down.

The loaded round being too large a dia is a different issue.....my comments are strictly about case prep prior to bullet seating.

Bill

[Thomas918]

I made a couple custom Lee powder through expander plugs for somebody who posts here. He was happy with them.
I am working on setting up to make them more often. My opinion is that the expander should expand the same depth that the bullet seats.

Lee and Dillon like to use the bullet to expand the case muoth.

There is a limit IMHO to how much neck tension can be achieved and if the case internally is smaller than the bullet either the bullet must expand the case or the bullet gets sized down.

In mild traditional cast bullet uses like 38 special it might seem to work OK, but in my own experiments in 9x19 if the bullet gets sized down by the case then the ammo stinks as far as accuracy goes. One can load a round then pull the bullet with a hammer puller and then measure it to see if seating it in the case is sizing it down.

The loaded round being too large a dia is a different issue.....my comments are strictly about case prep prior to bullet seating.

Bill

So far the 38sw is seating the projectiles decently so far. It bells nicely but it does leave a little bit desired. My 150gr bullets are .356 x .642 in length. The seating depth is .375 give or take. 015. When you get stuff set up let me know how much you would want for one and I'll take it into consideration

Edit: took my 9mm plug expanded rounds to the range and chronod. They had decent spread but 1in 10 keyholed which isn't surprising with how much they swaged. I also chronod the 38sw plug expanded rounds and they performed very good with close FPS. I forgot to check for keyholing on that load though so I can't trust it yet. I have a match tomorrow and I'm gonna bring my copper plated 147s until I get this figured out. Thanks for replies everyone.

[Willbird]

So far the 38sw is seating the projectiles decently so far. It bells nicely but it does leave a little bit desired. My 150gr bullets are .356 x .642 in length. The seating depth is .375 give or take. 015. When you get stuff set up let me know how much you would want for one and I'll take it into consideration

Edit: took my 9mm plug expanded rounds to the range and chronod. They had decent spread but 1in 10 keyholed which isn't surprising with how much they swaged. I also chronod the 38sw plug expanded rounds and they performed very good with close FPS. I forgot to check for keyholing on that load though so I can't trust it yet. I have a match tomorrow and I'm gonna bring my copper plated 147s until I get this figured out. Thanks for replies everyone.

Which bullet are you using ?? If you have a picture I can draw one up in cad that has the important features included. Or if it is a Lee mold I might have one, I have a couple. I think the last ones I made I may have used the Lee 356-120-TC bullet for dimensions.

Bill

[Thomas918]

Which bullet are you using ?? If you have a picture I can draw one up in cad that has the important features included. Or if it is a Lee mold I might have one, I have a couple. I think the last ones I made I may have used the Lee 356-120-TC bullet for dimensions.

Bill

The bullet is 147 grain flat point. It's the one from MP molds. Flatbase .357 sized down to 356 https://www.mp-molds.com/product/357...o-lube-groove/

[Willbird]

The bullet is 147 grain flat point. It's the one from MP molds. Flatbase .357 sized down to 356 https://www.mp-molds.com/product/357...o-lube-groove/

Ok that looks interesting. Will plug in the .375 seating depth and see what that looks like. I have a sample lee 9x19 powder thru inbound.

[Meatpuppet]

My experience with 9mm:

98% of bullet retention is from a properly resized case, not crimp. What sizing die are you using? I run a Lee/MGW U-Die which resizes the case .0003 smaller than a standard die and provides fantastic grip on the projectile.

For coated bullets, .357 & .358 give me the best accuraccy across a variety of handguns. .356 size projectile and a sizing die that sized a little "loose" might be a problem.

For 9mm I reload coated bullets almost exclusively on a progressive Dillon press. I used to have problems with the case not being expanded deep enough for the longer 147 - 165 grain projectiles and the projectiles would be swaged down by the thickening case wall while seating. I switched to a deep powder-thru expander by Unique Tek (https://uniquetek.com/product/T1736), to expand the inside to .357. Definately helped.

Finally, the FCD helps me for chambering reliability, but I dont necessarily use the crimp function.

Im looking forward to your solution.

[Thomas918]

So another update. I reinstalled my Lee FCD so my rounds would chamber perfectly. I had brought the die far out of the die so the Carbide ring took out the belling of the case. The cases were just barely entering the die and the crimp was not being applied at all.The rounds chambered fine after . I had a few rounds being swaged down at seemingly random times. So I pulled all my bullets and set them next to the different head stamps they came from. I found out that a few brands of brass had really thick case walls. Which when resized for chambering after inserting a bullet, they would swage the bullet down to .353. I had a lot of brands that were thick. Thankfully my most numerous brass had thinner case walls and didn't swage the bullet at all when ran through the Carbide sizing ring in the FCD. Now I'm just waiting on a normal taper crimp die in the mail to crimp my rounds and remove the belling without worrying about the Carbide ring in the FCD die.

[ioon44]

I use Hornady 9mm dies with the Hornady taper crimp die. I size my bullets to .358" to .359" for my 9's which measure .357".

One thing I do to prevent swagging is to back the sizer die up one turn (.080"), so the brass is not full length sized but still passes the neck tension test and plunk test. My taper crimp die is set to just remove the bell from the case.

I am using 140gr Hi-Tek coated bullets that I cast too around 12 BHN, these are very accurate and have no leading problems with my Walther PPQ SF and PDP.

About a year ago I started sorting brass by head stamp and use Speer, Blazer, R&P, FC & PMC, everything else goes into the scrap bucket.

From reading lots of post on this forum it seems to me the Lee FCD die's cause more problems than they solve.