Sub-sonic for hunting...why?

[megasupermagnum]

I've never heard anyone complain about the 32-40. Maybe you are thinking of the 32-20? Admittedly the 32-20 is not a powerhouse, but for most of its existence it has been considered a perfectly adequate deer cartridge. Today it is often loaded to around 30 carbine and 327 federal levels, and they work fine for deer. Again at that point we are talking supersonic, but also not very heavy bullets. A 300 BO at 1050 fps and a 200+ grain bullet is a fine deer cartridge... within its limitations. Provided you get good expansion, it does not lack wound channel or penetration. It does not have either in excess, but it does work.

Consider this, today airgun hunting is growing in popularity quite fast due to the bigger and more powerful airguns now being easy to find and not overly expensive. They share a lot in common with the subsonic firearms, both are liked for the lack of noise, and general ease in shooting. Quite thorough testing has been done with airguns, on whitetails specifically. A 150 grain bullet at 800 fps is considered adequate, about like a 38 special handgun. I will agree that when it comes to subsonics I would think bigger is a much better choice. I would think a 450 bushmaster, or even a 50 beowulf would be ideal for big game hunting in the AR15 subsonic.

America loves its 30 calibers though. And yes, people really are buying 300 BO subsonic and are really hunting with them with good effect.

[BadgerShooter]

I guess when I decide I'm going to take an animal's life, I am not interested in seeing how close I can come to not killing it. I want to use plenty of power and a good bullet to quickly and humanely end that animal's life. Sure you can use a small gun, plenty of deer have been taken with 22LR through the years, but things don't always go perfect when hunting. Unless you are shooting from a rest out of a stand over a feeder with tame deer and can control all the variables, the lighter the caliber, the more likely you are going to be tracking, extending the suffering of the animal you decided to kill and threatening neighbor relations tracking deer off your property. Obviously you can make a bad shot with a powerful rifle, but that power gives you that bit of extra edge to kill cleanly. I really enjoy playing with subsonic and other interesting cartridges, but when it comes to taking life, I'm going to use plenty of gun. YMMV

[afish4570]

Most of the deer hunters I have hunted with use traditional deer rifles 3030,3006 270 308 new 6.5 cals,303 etc.) Also most don't spend the time and money to become decent shots or are very diligent in tracking. Too often they shoot and if the deer doesn't stagger, fall down they consider it a miss. If they do look for blood trail they aren't very dedicated in effort or are looking for alot of blood. Lot of time blood doesn't start until the deer run off aways. Heavy woods areas with lots of leaves aren't like tracking in snow. Here in NY & Pa. ranges are under 100 yds Some property is small in acreage and neighbors are not friendly to hunters tracking deer on their property or are city people who bought the land as a 2nd home and hunting themselves. I have shot several deer with with 4570 380 gr FP bullets at 1500 fps, they penetrate well and leave a decent blood trail. Never found a boolit and expect little expansion at 70 yds or so,. My pistol boolits in 44 mag were 290 gr Keith with similar results at 40 yds. at 1100 fps Just thoughts of an older guys experience. Hunting is not like shooting deer on a culling permit. Deer are alert and spooky during the rut and hunting season. The reason we went from slow moving subsonic boolits to higher velocity ones were better success and ability to shoot at longer ranges, Less wounded animals and lost ones due to poor hits too. afish4570

[wolfdog]

Idk, I bet if I put a 200ish grain bullet through both lungs of a deer at subsonic speeds, it's not climbing out of my freezer.

[versa-06]

Generally speaking a good hit with cast can be as good as jacketed or close. No it does not have the shock of a 2700-3100 FPS bullet, But good placement Lung, Heart, or CNS. Drops in short order. But as far as mean ole neighbors, a visit for Christ may be in order to establish that neighbor that he spoke of.

[BadgerShooter]

After 48 years of shooting whitetails, I have settled on the 45-70 for out to 150 or so. I swage a soft lead 350 grain paper patch bullet and run it at full Marlin pressures. It's an utter smasher. For past 150, I use the 300 Win with 200-225 grain bullets. My farm butts up to a large marsh that is miles across, of springs and floating bog so ranges can get long. As long as you keep your shots in the front half, nothing has walked away from it. I like the tracking jobs that are 2 feet straight down. Believe me, I've made my mistakes and have hopefully learned from them. These two calibers and loads have been working the best of anything I have used to this point and in my environment. YMMV

[wolfdog]

After 48 years of shooting whitetails, I have settled on the 45-70 for out to 150 or so. I swage a soft lead 350 grain paper patch bullet and run it at full Marlin pressures. It's an utter smasher. For past 150, I use the 300 Win with 200-225 grain bullets. My farm butts up to a large marsh that is miles across, of springs and floating bog so ranges can get long. As long as you keep your shots in the front half, nothing has walked away from it. I like the tracking jobs that are 2 feet straight down. Believe me, I've made my mistakes and have hopefully learned from them. These two calibers and loads have been working the best of anything I have used to this point and in my environment. YMMV

30-30, .223, .243, 357mag have accounted for quite a few for us. Not exactly power house rounds, lol.

[versa-06]

Not power house rounds but still effective. The 223 I have reservations with. Yes it will kill deer but exit wounds may not always prevail. Like 243 with a light bullet.

[BadgerShooter]

No Doubt - In some of the environments I'm in, it's very important to keep deer very close to where they were shot. I've killed deer with those cartridges too and smaller. I know everyone else out there is perfect and has never had a deer get away, but since I have went to these loads, it just doesn't happen. In many situations, it's just fine for a deer to run 50-75 yards before they drop. In some situations, it's not. The difference i'm talking about is the ability to consistently drop deer in their tracks as opposed to running, even if a short distance. Just about anything that goes bang has been used to kill deer. In some of the environments I hunt in, it's important to be more consistently decisive and who doesn't want that. The best outcome I can think of is the deer piling up right when I pull the trigger. I want to do everything in my power to make that happen every time. Equipment, ammunition and purposeful practice.

[wolfdog]

Not power house rounds but still effective. The 223 I have reservations with. Yes it will kill deer but exit wounds may not always prevail. Like 243 with a light bullet.

That may have been the case ten years ago, but I've gotten consistent exits in the last few years on deer and antelope. I've had great luck with the 62 and 75 grain Speer Gold Dot, 64 grn Winchester Power Points and even the lowly 55grn Hornady soft point.

[wolfdog]

No Doubt - In some of the environments I'm in, it's very important to keep deer very close to where they were shot. I've killed deer with those cartridges too and smaller. I know everyone else out there is perfect and has never had a deer get away, but since I have went to these loads, it just doesn't happen. In many situations, it's just fine for a deer to run 50-75 yards before they drop. In some situations, it's not. The difference i'm talking about is the ability to consistently drop deer in their tracks as opposed to running, even if a short distance. Just about anything that goes bang has been used to kill deer. In some of the environments I hunt in, it's important to be more consistently decisive and who doesn't want that. The best outcome I can think of is the deer piling up right when I pull the trigger. I want to do everything in my power to make that happen every time. Equipment, ammunition and purposeful practice.

Heart lung shots tend to be the most common for me, and most of my deer pile up in 25-50 yards. Even in thick cover that allows me find them pretty easy. From .223 up to 30-06, I've seen consistent similar results on similar shots.

[versa-06]

Note I said not always. I've seen 2 deer in the last 3 years, one in the neck with and one through the lungs using the Hornadt 55 grain bullet. Another at close range using Federal blue box 100 grain 243 at approx. 45 yds. through the lungs. That did not get a complete pass through. They all died within a few yards, but I like a complete pass thru for a blood trail if needed. -06

[wolfdog]

Note I said not always. I've seen 2 deer in the last 3 years, one in the neck with and one through the lungs using the Hornadt 55 grain bullet. Another at close range using Federal blue box 100 grain 243 at approx. 45 yds. through the lungs. That did not get a complete pass through. They all died within a few yards, but I like a complete pass thru for a blood trail if needed. -06

No worries, I hope I wasn't coming off as argumentative, just trying to share my exp. And I have several loads with the .243 that work but do not get passthroughs. That round is fast and I think typical cup and core bullets just don't hold together. Where I'm at, I get the choice of wide open shots where I can see forever or close in brush shots. I think most of us on this forum probably put in more thought and practice than the average hunter. And are probably intimately aware of our guns and components. I'm betting the guys that hunt with subsonic or .223 or what not have put in the time/effort to be comfortable with their choice and those who do not have also got the background to rule out certain rounds for their personal use. After a certain point, it's just what you will enjoy/remember shooting.

[versa-06]

---I have had very good luck with pass thru's with 100 gr. Rem Core-Lokt (If they can be found). & Hornady 100 gr. Inter Lock Bullets ( Now have a lifetime supply). These have complete pass thru's every time in my usage. Loading components have turned into a collectible item. If I find them & can afford them, I buy them.

[versa-06]

Above; Should have stated for the 243.

[wolfdog]

---I have had very good luck with pass thru's with 100 gr. Rem Core-Lokt (If they can be found). & Hornady 100 gr. Inter Lock Bullets ( Now have a lifetime supply). These have complete pass thru's every time in my usage. Loading components have turned into a collectible item. If I find them & can afford them, I buy them.

Really? I've had awful luck getting the Hornady 100grn soft point to stay together in .243. At 2900fps, unless my shot is over 200 yards I have the things come apart every time. I've killed hogs, antelope and deer with them over the years and can't think of a single time I had a pass through. I currently shoot the 85grn Sierra Game King hollow points, and though they do not pass through, they seem to always give me better groups than 100grn bullets in my rifle and have proven very effective. I also shoot the 85grn Speer Hot Core and though less accurate than the Sierra for me, also very effective on game.

[versa-06]

Amazing how results can differ, Isn't it. -06

[wolfdog]

Amazing how results can differ, Isn't it. -06

Probably range the animals are generally shot at, shot angle, bone impact or not, muzzle velocity, and a million other things. Most of the deer I have hit with the 100grn Hornady have been hit in the shoulder blade or hit a rib going in. I push mine to 2900fps and most of my shots when I had the 100 loaded were closer than 100 yards. All this probably adds up to less penetration than a double lung with no major bones hit and slower impact velocity. The hogs I've hit with that round were square in the forehead at 50 yards. Instantly lethal..but it's bound to limit penetration.

[versa-06]

We generally try to stay behind the shoulder on all game except coyote & bear. We are meat hunters & try our best to damage as little as possible. The only reason I would hit a bear in the shoulder is to take out a wheel & put him down a.s.a.p.

[versa-06]

Getting back on topic for a moment, Why would anyone "not want" the quieter load? Unless you like wearing hearing protection, Loud bangs excite you, You want everyone to know what you are doing, List goes on, & on. I know it takes pressure for flat trajectory, But most but not all hunting shots are usually 80 yds or less. Heavy bullet low velocity works as we all know.