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Thread: Sprinfield Trapdoor .45-70 questions

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold GrantThompsonIII's Avatar
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    Sprinfield Trapdoor .45-70 questions

    I posted on here about a week or two ago about trying to find a single shot rifle for $750 or under. A lot of you were right it ia hard to find rifles around that price range but I did find 12 between four different shops. Six of them are .45-70 Springfield Trapdoors. They are the cheapest so I figured I would get some info on them first. Two of them are listed as "Model 1884 Sprinfields", one is listed as a "Springfield Cadet", one is listed as "Model 1873" but the lock area is too worn to see a date listed. One more is listed as a "1878 Model Springfield". The last two are a Model 1877 Carbine and a Model 1884 Carbine. The 1873 Model is the worst looking cosmetically. The other 5 are very clean as they all came from the same private collector. 4 of the rifles in the private collection are in a 8.5/10 condition and one of the 1884 Rifles is a 9/10 only because it had its bluing re done and it has a newer stock not original to the rifle. The 9/10 1884 rifle is $700 and the rest of the 4 rifles are $200-$575. The Cadet model is $575. Now with all that malarkey out of the way I will say that the bores in all rifles are excellent, I asked the shop gunsmith to look at the 5 and he showed me with his camera. All hammers, ejectors, breech blocks (loading gate I think is the name) and firing pins work. .45-70 dummy caps fit in each rifle. Now question is what makes these rifles different ? I see the 1878 and 1873 have different rear sights as well as a different rear sight compared to the 1884s. The Cadet shares the same sights as the 1884s. The 1877 and 1884 have hooded front sights but different rear sights. Are sights the only difference with these rifles ? If so which rear sight would be best suited for deer hunting at ranges of 40-80 yards ? Also which is better the rifle or the carbine ? I would assume the rifle but I wouldnt know. Thanks for your replies to my last post. Out of these 6 Springfields the other six rifles I found were a Krag Rifle in .45 Gov, a Shikari in .45 Gov, a Mosin in .38-55 Win , two Westernfield Rifles in .45 Gov and .32-40 Win and a very old Whitney Phoenix in .45 Gov. It seems most single shots are in .45 Gov. Thanks for your help so far everyone.

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    Boolit Grand Master



    M-Tecs's Avatar
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    Spend some time here to learn the detailed differences https://trapdoorcollector.com/

    As to what's better rifle verse carbine that is personal preference. The carbines are handier.

    Same of sights. Strictly for hunting I prefer the 1879 style rear sight.

    Original TD's tend to shoot high so a higher front sight might be needed.
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    Boolit Buddy
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    The carbine will be lighter, shorter, and easier to carry than the muskets. The muskets do have sling swivels. A sling is a good thing for carrying. If you will be hunting off your porch, it would be a tossup. A gun in good original condition, well cared for, will increase in value. In any case, the 45-70 cartridge will produce quite a bit of recoil. A Past recoil pad, or a heavy coat will help.

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    Boolit Master

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    ^^^ true, also carbine will push back a bit more. Some front sights can be replaced by a blade from an 03 or 03A3 Springfield and be close, IIRC. Some of these have different bayonets. The rear sight did change. They can be swapped around as needed as the screw holes are the same,again IIRC. If the front can not be swapped out, you can epoxy one on and it will stay for years and years. If you ever plan to shoot long range, you will want the longer. For 1-200 yards, the shorter will work fine. I suggest strongly you take a small high powered magnifying glass and examine the muzzle/crowns. These guns are front cleaners. I have one that is like new but the crown was ruined. It had to be counter bored. Now it shoots very well.

  5. #5
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrantThompsonIII View Post
    I posted on here about a week or two ago about trying to find a single shot rifle for $750 or under. A lot of you were right it ia hard to find rifles around that price range but I did find 12 between four different shops. Six of them are .45-70 Springfield Trapdoors. They are the cheapest so I figured I would get some info on them first. Two of them are listed as "Model 1884 Sprinfields", one is listed as a "Springfield Cadet", one is listed as "Model 1873" but the lock area is too worn to see a date listed. One more is listed as a "1878 Model Springfield". The last two are a Model 1877 Carbine and a Model 1884 Carbine. The 1873 Model is the worst looking cosmetically. The other 5 are very clean as they all came from the same private collector. 4 of the rifles in the private collection are in a 8.5/10 condition and one of the 1884 Rifles is a 9/10 only because it had its bluing re done and it has a newer stock not original to the rifle. The 9/10 1884 rifle is $700 and the rest of the 4 rifles are $200-$575. The Cadet model is $575. Now with all that malarkey out of the way I will say that the bores in all rifles are excellent, I asked the shop gunsmith to look at the 5 and he showed me with his camera. All hammers, ejectors, breech blocks (loading gate I think is the name) and firing pins work. .45-70 dummy caps fit in each rifle. Now question is what makes these rifles different ? I see the 1878 and 1873 have different rear sights as well as a different rear sight compared to the 1884s. The Cadet shares the same sights as the 1884s. The 1877 and 1884 have hooded front sights but different rear sights. Are sights the only difference with these rifles ? If so which rear sight would be best suited for deer hunting at ranges of 40-80 yards ? Also which is better the rifle or the carbine ? I would assume the rifle but I wouldnt know. Thanks for your replies to my last post. Out of these 6 Springfields the other six rifles I found were a Krag Rifle in .45 Gov, a Shikari in .45 Gov, a Mosin in .38-55 Win , two Westernfield Rifles in .45 Gov and .32-40 Win and a very old Whitney Phoenix in .45 Gov. It seems most single shots are in .45 Gov. Thanks for your help so far everyone.
    I am new to this forum, I however asked this same question before because information is quite hard to come by. The 1873-1883 Models had two different rear sights both were "Musket Types" one had flat adjustment steps and one round had rounded adjustment steps on the rear sights. The 1884 Model to my knowledge only had the newer rear sight added called the "Buffington Battle Sight", there were also hoods added to the front sights. In 1888-1892 the last models were fitted with "Experimental Sliding Adjustment" rear sights. They remind you of the rear sight on the German Gewher 1898. The carbines with the front hoods on the sights started in 1877 and carried over to the 1884 model I think. Anyone can correct me if I am wrong but this is all I know. Never heard of a cadet model though.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    The differences are very suttle but the sights are the biggest difference. Here's a few quick pointers for you.
    The standard rifle has a 32 5/8" barrel the cadet is 29 and some change carbines are 22" and have a tapered barrel. The buffington rear sight is the better sight and were introduced of the 1884 model but can be found on earlier models. Springfield armory national historic site has on there website a data base you can look up serial numbers on that covers the early allen .50-70 coversions right up to the M1 rifle it will tell you the month and year of manufacture but nothing about where it went when it left the armory. A couple more things to look for is be sure its really a carbine and not a cut down rifle being sold as a carbine look for the tapered barrel and the rear sight should have a large C stamped on its side or top if its a buffington rifle sights are stamped with an R another hint is that carbines don't have a ramrod channel in the forend of the stock. I recently had a kid show me his trapdoor carbine that he paid 1500.00 bucks for because the dealer told him it was a real 1873 carbine the thing was a total frankenstein chopped rifle with a carbine sight ,broken & spliced stock wrist,1888 front band and the biggest red flags were the 1855 trigger guard that had the hole for the sling swivel filed off and put and put back on the tang backwards and the 03 springfield front sight and base. If a rifle went back to the arsenal with a broken stock we didn't splice it we replaced it. anyhow trapdoors can be great fun as well as a good hunting rifle and if a sporter dosen't bother you I'd say go for it but just remember they aren't worth near as much as a uncut specimen. I think if its in good shape the cadet would be just as good a choice as a carbine because they were the least produced.

  7. #7
    Boolit Mold GrantThompsonIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Hawkeye View Post
    The differences are very suttle but the sights are the biggest difference. Here's a few quick pointers for you.
    The standard rifle has a 32 5/8" barrel the cadet is 29 and some change carbines are 22" and have a tapered barrel. The buffington rear sight is the better sight and were introduced of the 1884 model but can be found on earlier models. Springfield armory national historic site has on there website a data base you can look up serial numbers on that covers the early allen .50-70 coversions right up to the M1 rifle it will tell you the month and year of manufacture but nothing about where it went when it left the armory. A couple more things to look for is be sure its really a carbine and not a cut down rifle being sold as a carbine look for the tapered barrel and the rear sight should have a large C stamped on its side or top if its a buffington rifle sights are stamped with an R another hint is that carbines don't have a ramrod channel in the forend of the stock. I recently had a kid show me his trapdoor carbine that he paid 1500.00 bucks for because the dealer told him it was a real 1873 carbine the thing was a total frankenstein chopped rifle with a carbine sight ,broken & spliced stock wrist,1888 front band and the biggest red flags were the 1855 trigger guard that had the hole for the sling swivel filed off and put and put back on the tang backwards and the 03 springfield front sight and base. If a rifle went back to the arsenal with a broken stock we didn't splice it we replaced it. anyhow trapdoors can be great fun as well as a good hunting rifle and if a sporter dosen't bother you I'd say go for it but just remember they aren't worth near as much as a uncut specimen. I think if its in good shape the cadet would be just as good a choice as a carbine because they were the least produced.
    I just found some good information on another forum called "The High Road". The 1873-1883 Rifles and Carbines all were manufactured with the standard "Musket Sights" which had been in use since the 1863 Springfield during the civil war and could be adjusted up to 500 yards on the elevation steps and up to 1100 yards on the elevation ladder. The 1884-1892 Model had the "Buffington Battle Sight" it has a minimum sight setting of 250 yards opposed to the 100 on the musket sight. The Buffington had windage adjustments as well as a maximum of 2000 yards. There were also some experimental things tested on the 1884 rifles like a "Ramrod Bayonet" and two different experimental sights. With this all being said if the 1884 sights are set to a minimum of 250 yards how low will you have to aim to hit a deer at 50 yards while hunting. Im sure aiming where you want to hit would send the bullet straight over the animal if I am correct in my thinking.
    Last edited by GrantThompsonIII; 11-27-2022 at 11:30 PM. Reason: Errors in spelling

  8. #8
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    Think my 1884 hits about a foot and a half high at 100yds. I think its on at about 370yds. Nice tidbit of info on the front sight blade of an O3A3 might fit.

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    Boolit Mold GrantThompsonIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockrat78 View Post
    Think my 1884 hits about a foot and a half high at 100yds. I think its on at about 370yds. Nice tidbit of info on the front sight blade of an O3A3 might fit.
    It seems that the pre 1884 models are the best for deer hunting. I do like the Cadet rifle though, I assume I could remove the Buffington and install an older rear sight as they are only screwed on.

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    Boolit Master
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    Just use a 500 gr bullet and the sights should be ok at 100 yards as for the musket sights they quit using them when they changed from .50 to .45 caliber and if the 500gr bullet still hits high you can put in a taller front sight. The Buffington sight goes down to 100 yards you just have to fold the sight to the upright position.

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    Boolit Buddy steveu's Avatar
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    Go to trapdoor collectors dot com. You will find some good info there as well as sight parts. I tried a 03 front blade for my 1888 and it was a bit too thin.

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    The 1873 rear sight is an improve sight over what was on "muskets". The M1879 sights [Types I, II and III] were much improved. They are the sight I prefer on my TD's. I never really cared for the Buffington M1884 rear sight as it was really never very quick nor easy to use, other than the "battle sight", in the field. It is great on the range however.
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  13. #13
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    The Cadets not only had a shorter barrel but a shorter length of pull and a narrower buttplate so felt recoil will be more. They were seldom fired by cadets but used for drilling purposes. There were many fake cadets made up in the late 19th and early 20th centuries by cutting down standard muskets. Theses do not fetch as much money if discovered. You will probably need a taller front sight for deer hunting to shoot at 50 to 100 yards. I like the Buffington sight and also the 1879 sight. The Buffington sight in the down position is the battle position and is sighted for nearly 300 yards and will shoot quite high at 100 yds.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    The 1884 will have the best sights. I have one that was used in the single shot competition in N.M. The carbine is best used with 405 gr bullets or less weight. The rifle is good using 600 plus grain bullets. I like the trapdoor better than a Sharps, I own one. Buffalo Bill got his name from using a .50-90 trapdoor given when the government went to the .45-70.

  15. #15
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    Hey General Grant: Have been playing with Trapdoors since I was 17 years old. The armory cut the groves in the Springfield guns sometimes .459~.461 in depth. Most 45-70 bullets will not cast that large to allow you to lube and size them to groove diameter or .002 over groove diameter. I found by measuring the chamber with a fired case you could determine the largest size bullet you could seat into the case so the loaded cartridge would slide easly into the chamber. I made up a Lyman .462 sizing and lubricating die as my old Trapdoor could accommodate a large groove diameter 405 gr cast bullet. I had to enlarge my old Lyman mold too. The old Trapdoor would shoot quite well. To date I still have an 1873 Carbine and a Cadet rifle besides a dozen or so other 45-70 rifles and a pair of Gatling Guns that eat alot of 45-70 ammo. It is my firm belief that the US Government should have called the new cartridge in 1873 the 46-70 because they are really 46 caliber not 45. Still have an 1868 Springfield Trapdoor 50-70 that I enjoy shooting. They are .515 in groove diameter. Lee now has been offering a 45-70 mold with a hollow base. These work in the old Trapdoors with soft lead bullets as the base skirt will expand and guide the bullet. Accuracy is not bad with an old trapdoor. Have fun loading and shooting an old Trapdoor. There are alot of them out there that can be bought for under $750. Keep shopping! Don't be afraid to make an offer if you find one with a nice bore!

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    Late to the game on this thread but thought I'd share my experiences with you even though I am fairly new to all this. I have the 1888 model which is the Buffington sights and the ramrod bayonet. After acquiring the 500gr bullet and loading with around 65 grains of Swiss 1.5, I got the sights to work as designed out to 250 yards (meaning it hits the 17inch target I use). I have not tried further yet. Problem is I can't get it to group and I slugged it 2 days ago and it is .464 and I am using 459s. I feel confident it will group once I get the right diameter and alloy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief TC View Post
    Late to the game on this thread but thought I'd share my experiences with you even though I am fairly new to all this. I have the 1888 model which is the Buffington sights and the ramrod bayonet. After acquiring the 500gr bullet and loading with around 65 grains of Swiss 1.5, I got the sights to work as designed out to 250 yards (meaning it hits the 17inch target I use). I have not tried further yet. Problem is I can't get it to group and I slugged it 2 days ago and it is .464 and I am using 459s. I feel confident it will group once I get the right diameter and alloy.
    Assuming you got an accurate measurement when you slugged your bore(3 groove slugs are difficult to measure), I suggest you order a government style bullet mould from Accurate Molds. My '88 slugs .4634 and I ordered one in .464. The catalog No. is 46-500D. You can order it to cast to the diameter desired and to what tolerance(see the FAQ section). I ordered mine with positive tolerance. You'll probably need a bigger case mouth expander M die. Also, I have always used Winchester brass which have thin case walls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by varsity07840 View Post
    Assuming you got an accurate measurement when you slugged your bore(3 groove slugs are difficult to measure), I suggest you order a government style bullet mould from Accurate Molds. My '88 slugs .4634 and I ordered one in .464. The catalog No. is 46-500D. You can order it to cast to the diameter desired and to what tolerance(see the FAQ section). I ordered mine with positive tolerance. You'll probably need a bigger case mouth expander M die. Also, I have always used Winchester brass which have thin case walls.
    Yes, it was hard to measure and I had to do it quite a bit to make sure I was getting it correct. Thanks for the specific info and sharing!

    Also, what lead ratio are you using and how well does your TD group and how far have you been able to shoot it with some accuracy? I read from Larry Gibson's postings that 16-1 was better when the bullet fits properly.
    Last edited by Chief TC; 01-10-2023 at 10:29 PM. Reason: adding content

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Of course back in the day, they were indeed cleaned from the muzzle, so those that saw a lot of
    duty, and/or barracks cleaning regimens got muzzle wear of the crown.

    Nowadays, A delrin rod and my Flex Jag Adaptor and Trapdoors can be wiped between shots and cleaned from the Breech.
    beltfed/arnie

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief TC View Post
    Yes, it was hard to measure and I had to do it quite a bit to make sure I was getting it correct. Thanks for the specific info and sharing!

    Also, what lead ratio are you using and how well does your TD group and how far have you been able to shoot it with some accuracy? I read from Larry Gibson's postings that 16-1 was better when the bullet fits properly.
    I've always used 20:1. I'm limited to 100 yards and I can get 3" on a good day with 72 year old eyes.

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