32 S&W (short) w/Win244

[TheAbe]

First post! Good to be joining this community. Lots of questions on various topics, mostly reloading, and here is the first.

I recently acquired an old Iver Johnson safety hammerless (3rd model) in 32 S&W (short...just clarifying), and I was looking to reload for it. I have new brass (Winchester) and 78gr Acme .313 boolits. I have read there is some data for 78gr cast using Win231 in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, and that the max load was around 2.5gr with an impressive (for 32 S&W) 800fps. Can anyone confirm?

In the meantime, I do not have any Win231 at the moment, but most of a jar of Win244, which is rather new and doesn’t have a lot of load data for...older cartridges yet. I have noticed, though, that Win244 is just a bit slower than Win231, and for 9mm, .380 Auto, and a few others that have load data for both, Win244 seems safe in anything that can use Win231, and generally the max load will be a bit more for Win244 than Win231, with 244 also giving slightly higher velocities for the same chamber pressure.

All that being said, what are everyone’s thoughts on using Win244 in 32 S&W, and does anyone have the capability of calculating the theoretical results of a 2.0gr load behind the 78gr Acmes?

Thanks!

[racepres]

Afraid I know Not what 244 is..
I am in the process of loading a 90gr SWC over 1.0 gr Trail boss... in that short little case, I will Not even push that 90 grainer down to the crimp groove... just barely covering the Grease groove should get it nicely..
Maybe we compare Notes!!!
Note... this will Not be for a Break Top.. Rather a 4" solid Frame H&R 6-shooter
Tho my youngest has a break top!!

[TheAbe]

On my long list of items I need to buy is a chronograph. I have 45 rounds loaded up so far, so that should make for some good testing (pressure and accuracy) when I next get to the range. I think my IJ has a 3” barrel. I actually picked up 22LR of the same style with a 7-round cylinder. The timing was bound, and today I was able to free it by filing the hand just a bit. Appears to function fine now though I still need to take some measurements. They make a fun pair, 32 and 22. I’ll post which works better once I’ve tried them out.

Let me know how the 1.0gr Trail Boss behind the 90gr projectile goes.

[uscra112]

A chronograph does not tell you much about pressure when it comes to comparing powders. Faster powders have to produce higher peak pressure to deliver a given velocity than will a larger charge of a slower powder. Easy to fool yourself if you don't appreciate that little factoid.

I'd be reluctant to be learning the characteristics of a new powder with no data using a fragile old gun like your Iver Johnson. (BTW I have one, a hammerless, that came to me from my Dad.)

My Quickload software doesn't know anything about Win 244.

[racepres]

I truly believe that I would Unlikely be looking for 800 fps out of your break-top..
I think 600 would be plenty.. I also believe that there is No Free Lunch... Higher Velocity can Only come from Higher Pressure...or perhaps a longer pressure curve... which the 32S&W does Not have enough case capacity to realize...
My First question, for the Chrony use, would be, what others are safely getting from that boolit, and that (Type at least) firearm..

[uscra112]

Velocity is best predicted by the area under the pressure/time curve. So longer but with a lower peak is indeed the holy grail. Thing is, little old revolvers have such short barrels that "longer" isn't much of an option.

Me, I've shot my I.J. break-top so little that I've never reloaded for it. Nor have I fired it across the Chrony, so I don't even know what factory ammo does.

Fat lot of help I am.........

[racepres]

Velocity is best predicted by the area under the pressure/time curve. So longer but with a lower peak is indeed the holy grail. Thing is, little old revolvers have such short barrels that "longer" isn't much of an option.

Me, I've shot my I.J. break-top so little that I've never reloaded for it. Nor have I fired it across the Chrony, !!!so I don't even know what factory ammo does.

Fat lot of help I am.........

In the case of the 32S&W... there simply is No Room in the Case either!! Tho friends have had Fair luck with 71 gr 32 ACP projectiles... seated very shallow... Since they are J-Word rounds, and slightly undersize... I don't use Em... Not in my .32's anyway!!!

[TheAbe]

Thanks for the reply uscra! I was hoping Quickload would have Win 244 data, but I think the powder was only released in 2019, so even the manufacturer doesn’t have much for it, though it is probably the most available powder in my area (probably because nobody knows what to do with it). What does Quickload say about Win 231 with a 78gr Acme .313 in 32 S&W? I’m using Federal primers. I can always buy a bottle of Win 231 if I need to.

Chronograph is more of an add-on, for curiosity’s sake. I am more interested in my fingers remaining intact, and to a lesser extent my revolver. I might need some armored gloves once I go to test my Baby Hammerless in the future...

[TheAbe]

Thanks for the reply racepres! Indeed, 800 FPS seemed a bit excessive a quoted velocity, but I wasn’t sure. One of the reloading shops I frequent has a library of books for reference while in-store, and that should include some of the older Lyman Cast books where supposedly this data came from.
Anyone have a copy of that book with data for Win 231? It’ll save me about an hour of driving...and the cost of whatever I buy there...it’s never an inexpensive trip.

[racepres]

^^ Yes, per Lyman 47th
77gr lrn (most weigh 78 plus) 231 start at 1.9 do not exceed 2.5
for reference
I use Red Dot, start at 1.4 do not exceed 1.9
I have Not been to 1.9, still at 1.4, .. But I also use a 90gr boolit.

I did find some range Notes.. not precise, as I scribbled it down at the Range.
My Friend loaded some 71gr ACP projectiles .. into ACP brass...as he was using an S&W long revolver. (note ACP brass is actually Longer than .32 S&W)
He was getting a wide velocity swing (I believe because of Undersize Bullets), from 650 to 700 FPS (4 inch Barrel)
over 1.5 gr of Bullseye..The starting load for that bullet in ACP according to my Lyman Book!!!
Of note also from that session... 1.8 gr Bullseye, under a Hornady 90gr HBWC, in S&W Long brass, clocked 800fps out of a Ruger 32H&R, sporting the 9-1/2 inch barrel. I noted that I felt it should be reduced looking for better accuracy..
Somewhere I will need to confirm my High Preference for AA#5 in all loads .32 except "business" loads for the H&R Mag Jacketed Bullets..

Nothing specific for you..Except...I would Not be setting a velocity Goal with that revolver..

[uscra112]

Would need to know the PRECISE seating depth of that Acme bullet to build up a QL model. Tiny cases are hyper-sensitive about seating depth.

[Larry Gibson]

Some information that might be of interest;

32 S&W factory pressures

I recently inquired at several LGSs regarding any 32 S&W or 32 Short colt cartridges they may have laying around. I ended up with several sample of 32 S&W of various makes of unknown vintage. The purpose for the acquisitions was to pressure test them. I pressure tested them a couple days ago and had interesting results. I also ended up with full box of Western 32 Short Colt which I’ve not tested yet.

The test firearm was a Contender With a 10” barrel chambered in 32 H&R Magnum and a strain gauge affixed over the chamber at the prescribed SAAMI location for pressure measurement. The gauge was connected to the Oehler m43 and its attendant software in a laptop. I was able to measure the pressure and muzzle velocity of the assorted 32 S&W cartridges.

As a reference:

32 H&R Magnum
Federal 32 H&R 85 gr LSWC factory ammunition ran 1217 fps (987 fps out of 6 ½” Ruger SS) at 18,200 psi.
A Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye ran 1128 fps at 16,500 psi

32 S&WL;

Federal factory WCs; 12,000 psi
Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 2.8 gr Bullseye ran 1060 fps at 16,800 psi (880 fps out of my M30 S&W with 3” barrel)
Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye ran 1165 fps at 19,300 psi.
98 gr cast SWC over 2.5 gr Bullseye ran 944 fps at 15,000 psi.
98 gr cast SWC over 4 gr Unique ran 1101 at 19,000 psi

The results of the 32 S&W factory ammunition;

Winchester Western 86 gr Lubaloy LRN; 786 fps at 18,900 psi
Winchester W-W; 727 fps at 15,300 psi
Winchester [WRA]; 729 fps at 16,300 psi
Remington [R-P]; 676 fps at 14,200 psi
Federal [F C] 86 gr FMJRN; 833 fps at 17,900 fps
Winchester [WRA] 86 gr FMJRN; 780 fps at 14,000 psi

The average pressures for the 32 S&W ran from a low of 14,000 psi to 18,900 psi. The 32 S&W is presumed to be a lower pressure cartridge than the 32 S&WL because it is the shorter cartridge. That presumption is probably based off similar cartridges such as the 38 SPL/357 Mag, the 44 SPL/44 Mag, etc. Thus, those presumptions has always led to the belief that using the 32 S&W in the old H&R and Iver Johnson top break 32 S&WL chambered revolvers was “safer” because of the less psi of the 32 S&W cartridge…….we see from the actual psi of numerous 32 S&W factory loads that is not always the case……..

I'm not saying 32 S&W ammunition is unsafe in 32 S&WL chamber top break revolvers just saying there's not a lot of difference, in pressure, between the two cartridges as is thought.

[TheAbe]

Thank you very much! All fantastic info!

[uscra112]

Looking forward to the .32 Short Colt data, since several of my "boys' rifles" use that round.

[racepres]

Excellent info Larry
I have seen your tests before
Since I am Not using a blowback semi Auto for S&W Long
I am secure with 32S&W loadings
Not sure I wish to push into ACP pressured yet

[uscra112]

I've been trying ro reconcile Larry's numbers with my Quickload models, and I can't even come close.

Example: Winchester Western 86 gr Lubaloy LRN; 786 fps at 18,900 psi

That pressure should be delivering around 1200 fps from a 10 inch barrel.

QL cautions that their results are only estimates, but in ten years I've never seen a model that was THAT far off.

[rintinglen]

Getting back to the OP's question, Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook #3 shows 1.9 start to 2.5 max with WW231 for the 311-252 with an OAL of .860 for the 32 S&W. Your 2.0 grain load of 244 with a similar boolit should be perfectly safe and give about 600 fps, perhaps a smidge less from a 3 1/2 inch BBL.

[Larry Gibson]

uscra112

I've noticed similar discrepancies between QL estimates and actual psi measurements, especially with pistol cartridges. My suspicion is the QL program does not correctly account for the expansion ratio with such cartridges. The Winchester Western 86 gr Lubaloy LRN factory cartridge had just 1.8 gr of a ball powder. While the fast burning powder may crate the higher than expected psi in the chamber it just does not have the volume potential to push the bullet down the barrel to the QL's calculated velocity. Note the Federal 32 H&R 85 gr LSWC factory reference ammunition shot during the same test actually gave 1217 fps at 18,200 fps. That ammunition had 4.2 gr of a small grey flake powder. That amount of powder obvious had the produced volume to push nto the higher velocity at the same pressure with the same barrel.

[uscra112]

Looking forward, as I said, the .32 Colt data. A cartridge I have much more experience with.

One parameter I can only guess at is the seating depth those S&W cartridges use.

Expansion ratio? I'll have to think on that idea. I don't see that QL has any factor accounting specifically for volume of gas evolved from the deflagration. Boyles' Law will apply, however, so maybe it isn't necessary.

You were firing a very short round in a much longer chamber. How much gas was getting past the bullet during that long jump to the leade?

Lastly, and not wishing to give offense, as a superannuated automotive process gaging guy I have to wonder about how well calibrated your strain gage system is. What is the protocol? Does it correlate well with the copper-crusher lab instruments? Does it have a linearity or bias issue when used for such low pressures? Information I would stand a chance of knowing had I ever had one to work with, but of course I haven't.

Phil W.

[uscra112]

I just noticed the "hidden Hilda" button that pops up a window where the expansion ratio of the powder is displayed, so my previous post is already obsolete.