Powder coated vs. jacketed load data for rifle cartridges

[gzig5]

I've been searching but not finding much good information. I'm going from jacketed to powder coated cast bullets in my 1956 Marlin 336 .35 Rem. It's been fire lapped and shoots pretty well with standard 200gr RN jacketed bullets and 36gr of IMR3031. I'd like to duplicate the accuracy and velocity with the Lee 358-200 I have. I've slugged the throat/bore and am working on getting the bullet diameter up to suit it. What I can't find is "high velocity" load data for powder coated bullets, which I am lead to believe should be able to be pushed to better than 2000 fps? All the book data I have from Lyman and others limits to relatively quick pistol powders and 1400-1600fps velocity. Was hoping there would be a rule of thumb for going from the jacketed data to cast with this type of bullet. I realize the technique is fairly new and probably not a lot of experience with it yet compared to traditional lubes, but one of the reasons I went down the path was to be able to maximize the 35 rem velocity with cast bullets. If successful, I'll branch out to other rifle calibers.

[MT Gianni]

Start with lead data and work up to what you were using for jacketed. Your rifle will tell you when you are at the limit of your alloy and lube, in this case coating. It would be different than my rifles peak load.

[charlie b]

I just start with min or middle jacketed data and work up. My .308 I usually shoot 210gn cast bullets. Max load for 208 jacketed is just over 2400fps. That was also max for my cast bullets. Best accuracy is a little lower since it turns out my cast bullets do not like velocity over 2400fps.

Some bullets you may be able to push faster, some may not. Depends on the bullet, range and how far above supersonic you are.

[P Flados]

With the 357 Max, 357 AR Max, 350 L and 35 Rem all having similar maximum velocities, there is a pretty good experience base for pushing PC coated 35 cal boolits into the low 2000s. The boolits have performed well both with and without gas checks.

The general experience is that changing from jacketed bullets to PC boolits does not make that much of a difference with respect to load data. Changing from one brand to another with jacketed bullets can have about the same amount of impact on max velocity before pressure causes a problem. Understanding your seating depth vs. the seating depth used for the published load is probably the most important thing you can do to avoid any surprises.

The next thing that should be discussed is pressure margins for your gun. Some 35 Rem guns are probably capable of handling the same pressures as the 270 Win. If this is your situation, you can be confident that your brass will start looking very abused before you hurt your gun.

Other 35 Rem guns are not nearly as forgiving. If your gun is only suitable for loads at the SAAMI rating of 33,500 psi, how will you know if your load is too high? There is no practical way for the average reloader to use primers appearance, case expansion or extraction difficulty as direct indications that a load is approaching the rating. If you have a load that exactly duplicates a published load with pressure data in psi, you might be able to compare the primer appearance from those loads to the appearance of that same batch of primers in other loads.

I have struggled with this same issue when loading 30-30 based rounds for my TC Contender. Remember that this is just a hobby. Pushing things without adequate confidence in the pressure margins for a gun is hard to justify when you think of your benefit vs. the potential consequences. Even if you do not hurt anyone, is it work taking a chance on messing up a nice old 35 Rem?

[gzig5]

Start with lead data and work up to what you were using for jacketed. Your rifle will tell you when you are at the limit of your alloy and lube, in this case coating. It would be different than my rifles peak load.

Therein lies the problem. All the lead bullet data I have in the books use relatively fast powders that can't be compared with the medium fast rifle powders the 35 Rem uses with jacketed bullets.

I'll just start with the starting loads of IMR3031, H4895, H335, etc. I know that the pressure will be different with a coated vs jacketed bullet, given the same powder charge but I just don't have a feel for which way it goes and how much.

[Larry Gibson]

gzig5

You may find some useful information in this test I conducted. Though I did not test any PC'd bullets the load information should help, especially if you get some LeveRevolution powder.

35 Remington Pressure Tested Loads

Test rifle is a M91 Mauser rebarreled with a 26” Shilen sporter barrel with a 14” twist as sold prethreaded and 35 Remington short chambered for SR Mauser actions by Brownell's. I finish reamed the chamber with a chamber reamer I had made to minimum SAAMI specification and headspace was set at minimum. The M91 is still in cut down military stock. Sights are a Lyman SME receiver sight with an M14 front sight.

Pressure and velocity were tested with an Oehler M43 PBL. Cartridges were loaded with RCBS dies. The case mouths were mildly crimped in the canalure and crimp grooves on the rifles.

The SAAMI MAP for the 35 Remington is 33,500 psi in deference to the older recoil operated semi automatic rifles for which the cartridge was first developed. I many single shots, the marlin 336 lever actions and bolt actions the pressure can be raised increasing the efficiency of the 35 Remington considerably. The Marlin 336 while chambered in 35 Remington has been mostly chambered in 30-30. Thus with the M336 being made to handle the 30-30 SAAMI MAP of 42,000 psi I see no reason why 35 Remington cartridges cannot be loaded to that level for the M336 Marlin lever action rifles. [my opinion based on the actual measured pressures in this test. I would load a Marlin 336 up to this performance level with confidence.]

I used 2 different loads for “reference ammunition”. The first was a specific lot of Federal factory PowerShok loaded with 200 gr RNSPs. The Federal technician wouldn't give the specific pressure tested data for that lot but advised it was just under the SAAMI MPSM (35,500 psi) for the cartridge. The second was a Lyman max load listed using H4895 powder in their 50th Edition Manual which listed a psi of 32,400 psi. I replicated that load all except for the bullet. I did not have any Hornady 200 gr FTX but used 200 gr Remington CorLoks. The FTX is seated much deeper into the relatively small 35 Remington case with Lyman showing it as a compressed load. The Remington bullet seats to the base of the neck leaving airspace between the powder and the bullet. Thus, I expected the psi of the “reference” test load to be a bit less than the listed Lyman load.

All tests are 10 shot tests. The M43 PBL converts the velocity to the muzzle [remember this is from a 26” barrel].

Test data of the two “reference” loads;

Federal Factory 200 gr PowerShok

Federal F-C cases
Federal 210 primers
38 gr ball type powder
OAL; 2.471”
Velocity; 2286 fps
SD/ES fps; 19/53
PSI (M43); 35,200 (just under the MPSM)
SD/ES psi; 1,000/2,900

Lyman 50th Edition Handbook replication test load

R-P cases
Rem 9 ½ Primers
36.0 gr H4895
OAL; 2.522”
Velocity; 2065 fps
SD/ES fps; 39/100
PSI (M43); 30,000 (less with the shorter seating depth of the Remington 200 gr bullet)
SD/ES psi; 1,800/5,300

Further load tests;

Remington 180 gr FPJ bullet w/LeveRevolution

Win Super cases
CCI 200 primers
45.0 gr LeveRevolution [100% load density]
OAL; 2.457”
Velocity; 2407 fps
SD/ES fps; 16/57
PSI (M43); 32,100 (just under the MPSM)
SD/ES psi; 1,200/3,600

Remington 200 gr RNSP bullet w/LeveRevolution

Win Super cases
CCI 200 primers
45.0 gr LeveRevolution [100% load density]
OAL; 2.457”
Velocity; 2249 fps
SD/ES fps; 31/109
PSI (M43); 30,900
SD/ES psi; 1,200/3,600

RCBS 35-200-FN w/LeveRevolution, Lyman 50th Edition Handbook replication test load

R-P cases
Rem 9 ½ Primers
36.0 gr H4895
OAL; 2.522”
Velocity; 2065 fps
SD/ES fps; 39/100
PSI (M43); 30,000 (less with the shorter seating depth of the Remington 200 gr bullet)
SD/ES psi; 1,800/5,300

Remington 180 gr FPJ bullet w/LeveRevolution

Win Super cases
CCI 200 primers
45.0 gr LeveRevolution [100% load density]
OAL; 2.457”
Velocity; 2407 fps
SD/ES fps; 16/57
PSI (M43); 32,100 (just under the MPSM)
SD/ES psi; 1,200/3,600

Remington 200 gr RNSP bullet w/LeveRevolution

Win Super cases
CCI 200 primers
42.0 gr LeveRevolution
OAL; 2.457”
Velocity; 2249 fps
SD/ES fps; 31/109
PSI (M43); 30,900
SD/ES psi; 1,200/3,600

RCBS 35-200-FN cast of COWW + 2% tin, Hornady GCs, 2500+ lube, sized at .360

R-P Cases
WLR Primers
37 gr IMR4895
OAL; 2.425”
Velocity; 2162 fps
SD/ES fps; 50/140
PSI (M43); 41,100
SD/ES psi; 2,400/6,800


RCBS 35-200-FN bullet w/LeveRevolution

Win Super cases
CCI 200 primers
45.0 gr LeveRevolution [100% load density]
OAL; 2.427”
Velocity; 2384 fps
SD/ES fps; 28/85
PSI (M43); 37,900
SD/ES psi; 2,000/5,900

NOE 35 XCB 230 gr cast of COWW + 2% tin, Hornady GCs, 2500+ lube, sized at .360

Win Super Cases
WLR Primers
42 gr LeveRevolution
OAL; 2.453”
Velocity; 2314 fps
SD/ES fps; 18/59
PSI (M43); 41,800
SD/ES psi; 1,100/3,400


Be glad to answer any questions you may have.

[gzig5]

Thanks Larry, there's some helpful data in there that will get me going. I also ran across the big thread about getting velocity and accuracy above 2000fps "The Components of going faster" and there's some good info there as well.

[charlie b]

Another small sample that I just fired using 211gn PC bullet and IMR4166, .308Win

Hodgdon data 24" barrel
208 jacketed bullet
35.8gn 2217 min
40.2gn 2418 max

211gn cast PC bullet (Acc 31-210E) 26" barrel
measured with Labradar 40F outside temp 10 round average
36.0gn 2295
40.0gn 2460

This is same load from that other thread

[gzig5]

That’s pretty darn close to 1:1. Thanks.