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Thread: Hornady dies kicking my butt.... again...

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy blackpowder man's Avatar
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    Hornady dies kicking my butt.... again...

    So my 6.5-30 jdj barrel and dies finally showed up from SSK. Iíve been patiently anticipating this day. I have .30-30 brass sized, annealed, and ready to convert to 6.5-30 brass. Iíve been playing with odd calibers and converting brass of all shapes and sizes for a pretty long time. And during that time I have learned to avoid Hornady dies. Iím sure some of you guys probably prefer Hornady dies and I respect that. What works for me certainly isnít what works for someone else. I canít even get the brass to start sizing beyond 1/16-1/8 of an inch before the neck collapses. And as usual I canít get a picture to upload.
    Iím frustrated, tired, and oviously have crazy expectations. Iíve never had a good experience with Hornady dies, although I can usually get them to load ammo. And Iíve never had much luck uploading pics here, but I have gotten a few to load.

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    Boolit Grand Master



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    I've had much better luck necking down without annealing. I do anneal after but every time I have tried annealing first neck collapsing becomes an issue.

    That being said I have never necked down for my 6.5 JDJ. I use 225 Winchester so for the 6.5 JDJ I've only necked up.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 11-17-2022 at 11:27 PM.
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    I don’t bash brands of equipment. What works for some might not work for others. All that being said I don’t particularly care for Hornaday dies. Every set I’ve had I’ve had issues with of one kind or another. Just my experiences. I realize more than likely it’s operator error. Lol
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  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Anneal before EXPANDING necks, but never before sizing DOWN.

    Where you already have annealed, maybe try using a 7mm die of some kind first. That may work the brass enough to harden it up again.
    Cognitive Dissident

  5. #5
    Boolit Master

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    Yes, annealing before sizing down is going to collapse the shoulders more often than not. I have also collapsed a few shoulders when necking up, but a low percentage comparing to necking down.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    Also, try using your bullet seating die to size a case down first. Remove the bullet seating parts, lube a case and size. The seating die is larger than the regular sizing die.

    I agree about the annealing,...always done after reforming is best.
    Maker of Silver Boolits for Werewolf hunting

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    Boolit Buddy blackpowder man's Avatar
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    Ok, I tried some brass that hasn’t been annealed and got the same results. I’ll try the seating die when I get home tonight. I thought about looking for some Lee 7-30 waters dies and see it thT might be a good first step in the neck down process.

  8. #8
    BP man: Not knowing your background (other than your self expressed experience level, which I take at face value) and not being able to easily see a print of the 6.5-30 JDJ, please take my comments for what they may offer you in way of help.

    Many JDJ cartridges have pretty steep shoulder angles (I remember his 06 family for the Encore as having 60į angle for instance).
    The shoulder angle pretty much dictates the breakdown of resultant forces in the sizing operation from a radial to longitudinal force perspective (friction and other things confound the simple relationship). As the angle goes up, the longitudinal force on the shoulder during resizing goes up in relation to the radial force. The radial force must always reach yield on the brass to size the case neck. At 45į, these forces to size the neck, and that pushing on the shoulder in a collapsing manner, are approximately equal (simply using resultant force analysis, they would be equal). This is why steep shoulders are hard to reform on a single pass. You probably know this, so not meant to offend.

    Some things that would help are what you appear to be pursuing already: 7-30 as first step (I would set the shoulder of the 7-30 sizing operation below where you want the 6.5-30 to minimize the shoulder you are forming directly from the 6.5 die), and use a good lube like Imperial size die wax.
    I would still set the (small) shoulder from the pass through the 6.5 die to help control your headspace during firing. Maybe SSK cuts to use the rim for HS, maybe (probably) not, and I know that with the 7-30 in a Contender it's not the best idea to use the rim for HS.

    I never anneal brass for my 7-30 Contender, and I use range pick ups as donors.
    One pass in die w/ Imperial size wax, and fire them. Sure I lose some at firing (my choice), but never during forming.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by poppy42 View Post
    I donít bash brands of equipment. What works for some might not work for others. All that being said I donít particularly care for Hornaday dies. Every set Iíve had Iíve had issues with of one kind or another. Just my experiences. I realize more than likely itís operator error. Lol
    I especially don't like the hornady American series. They didn't even come in a case..just a blister pack. The expander in a 357/38 kit I bought was junk. Luckily I had an old lumen set too. I use a 4 hole Lee and keep 2 seater on it.. 1 recap and an expander. That way I can run both 38 and 357 one seater for each, pre set.

    Lucky for me I had dupe dies..because their sets level a lot to be desired. I'm careful with their brass too. I've ran across a lot of short factory brass and flash holes that weren't perfectly centered. ( which liked to break recapping stems.. Until I tried up all the brass in that batch. )

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    I've necked down and reformed a lot of old .30-06 military 1940-46 brass using a lot of different brand dies for a lot of years. None of my "problems" were about the die brand, it's ALL been due to how far down the cases had to move per step; I've found that most cases and dies will work fine IF the steps are limited to about .020" of change. More than that in one step gives me a lot of collapsed/inverted necks AND wrinkled shoulders/bodies.

    IF you can find reforming die sets at all, they are costly. I've learned to buy flea market and yard sale FL dies, anything I can get cheep. I bore out and otherwise modify the right ones into my own reforming die sets. My ".30-06 to .22-250" form set has six modified dies but I no longer lose cases during reforming.

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy blackpowder man's Avatar
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    Thanks for the replies. Last brass I “made” was .25-20 from 7.62 Nagant this past summer. So making pain in the neck brass isn’t new to me. And I’m sure many others would pick the Hornady dies, I wish they were Lee or RCBS. But they’re not and I’m going to order some Lee 7-30 waters dies and make it a 2 step process. If it still doesn’t work for me maybe I’ll cut down a Lee 6.5x55 sizer. If that doesn’t work I may be ordering a 7-30 Waters barrel.

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by blackpowder man View Post
    So my 6.5-30 jdj barrel and dies finally showed up from SSK. I’ve been patiently anticipating this day. I have .30-30 brass sized, annealed, and ready to convert to 6.5-30 brass. I’ve been playing with odd calibers and converting brass of all shapes and sizes for a pretty long time. And during that time I have learned to avoid Hornady dies. I’m sure some of you guys probably prefer Hornady
    I am very familiar with the standard 6.5 JDJ. I am much less familiar with the 6.5-30 JDJ. Is that basically a 6.5/30-30AI?

    Quote Originally Posted by blackpowder man View Post
    Thanks for the replies. Last brass I “made” was .25-20 from 7.62 Nagant this past summer. So making pain in the neck brass isn’t new to me. And I’m sure many others would pick the Hornady dies, I wish they were Lee or RCBS. But they’re not and I’m going to order some Lee 7-30 waters dies and make it a 2 step process. If it still doesn’t work for me maybe I’ll cut down a Lee 6.5x55 sizer. If that doesn’t work I may be ordering a 7-30 Waters barrel.
    If you can find 7-30 Waters brass would that not be a better starting point for your 6.5-30 JDJ?
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, thereís absolutely no point."
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  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Find and cut down a 7x57 Mauser die for your intermediate. It has the shallowest shoulder angle of any of the common 7mm cartridges, and that will ease your initial neck-sizing process.
    Cognitive Dissident

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy blackpowder man's Avatar
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    It is .30-30 nucked down to 6.5. How blown out the taper and shoulders are has yet to be seen by me. The regular 6.5 jdj would be great if I could buy .225 brass.

    7-30 waters brass would be good, yes. But 7-30 dies are $36 and .30-30 brass is easily obtained.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Save the already annealed brass for another project or sell them to someone who needs 30/30 brass. Neck a new batch of brass down, THEN anneal prior to fireforming.
    Old enough to know better, young enough to do it anyway!

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  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    Anneal before EXPANDING necks, but never before sizing DOWN.

    Where you already have annealed, maybe try using a 7mm die of some kind first. That may work the brass enough to harden it up again.

    This is great rule . The too soft necks are collapsing .
    7mm die just might do the trick ... worth a try .
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  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Wouldn't a simple file and trim die work for an intermediate step. Just one die and shouldn't be as expensive as a 2 die set.

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy blackpowder man's Avatar
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    Lee 7-30 waters dies did the trick. I like Hornady products and have used quite a few of them. I personally don’t care for their dies though. Anyway, at the end of the day if I can accomplish whatever wierd, obsolete, wildcat, oddball thing I’m trying to do then life is good. And if the 6.5-30 JDJ lives up to my accuracy expectations then it will be even better.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Sounds like you have it all figgered out, but just for the hell of it,
    GONRA has always used STP Oil Treatment for a sizing lube.
    5.7x28mm FN brass all way up to 14.5mm Soviet LSC
    scrap dealer cases.....

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by GONRA View Post
    Sounds like you have it all figgered out, but just for the hell of it,
    GONRA has always used STP Oil Treatment for a sizing lube.
    5.7x28mm FN brass all way up to 14.5mm Soviet LSC
    scrap dealer cases.....
    A big "plus" on the STP! Also -- an instruction from an older than me fellow -- was to use a dampened with STP Q-tip on the INSIDE of the case as well (assuming you may have not -- apologies should you had) and, before any resizing at all use a brass or bronze brush to make certain inside of case to be resized is "as smooth as a baby's butt" (whatever that means ).
    Lastly, I cannot agree more with the several postings re annealing -- never before sizing down.
    BEST!
    geo

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