If the can/keg is in good shape the can is very collectable. I've got a soft spot of old cans.
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If the can/keg is in good shape the can is very collectable. I've got a soft spot of old cans.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
It’s not mint. There’s a dent in the side. Not sure I’d want to sell it, because of sentimental value.Originally Posted by M-Tecs
Although I’d love to know how old it is. I’ve searched online and hadn’t had much luck.
There’s no published data for 3031 in 300 Whisper/blackout but a compressed load with a free boolet and no gas check expense might work?
Probably not a good idea. Way too slow a powder and you get low fps for the full load.
Whatever!
I can't help with 35 whelen, but in my experience IMR 3031 is better with reduced loads than the more commonly recommended IMR 4895. I would go so far as to say 3031 is about the best rifle powder for reducing that I'm aware of. SR4759 was the only one better.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...8-h4198-recipe
Yep. Looks like 4198 is the limit for slow and bulky in the little cartridge.
Your 3031 should be safe to load below normal listings. Starting at a normal listing and working down would be recommended.
I have an AR-15 based 357 AR Max that was not punishing with a 200 gr at 2000 fps. I ran a Quickload table to give you an idea of what you can do for launching a 205 gr.
Code:Cartridge : .35 Whelen Bullet : .358, 200, LEE C358-200-RF (Weight adjusted to 205 gr) Seating Depth : .409 inch Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.900 inch = 73.66 mm Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm Powder : IMR 3031 Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -10.9 80 41.00 2021 1859 20610 5993 89.5 1.613 -09.8 81 41.50 2047 1908 21307 6093 90.2 1.588 -08.7 82 42.00 2074 1957 22025 6191 90.9 1.563 -07.6 82 42.50 2100 2007 22765 6288 91.5 1.538 -06.5 83 43.00 2126 2058 23526 6382 92.2 1.514 -05.4 84 43.50 2152 2109 24315 6475 92.8 1.491 -04.3 85 44.00 2179 2161 25127 6565 93.4 1.468 -03.3 86 44.50 2205 2213 25963 6653 94.0 1.446 -02.2 87 45.00 2231 2266 26826 6739 94.5 1.424 -01.1 88 45.50 2257 2319 27716 6823 95.0 1.403 +00.0 89 46.00 2283 2372 28633 6904 95.5 1.382 +01.1 90 46.50 2309 2426 29579 6983 96.0 1.361 +02.2 91 47.00 2335 2481 30555 7059 96.4 1.341 +03.3 92 47.50 2360 2536 31562 7132 96.8 1.321 +04.3 93 48.00 2386 2592 32598 7203 97.2 1.302 +05.4 94 48.50 2412 2647 33673 7271 97.6 1.283
Last edited by P Flados; 11-07-2022 at 08:38 PM.
And here is a 38-55 table
Code:Cartridge : .38-55 Win. Bullet : 330 gr x 1.4” Cartridge : .38-55 Win. Seating Depth : .585 inch Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.900 inch = 73.66 mm Barrel Length : 18.0 inch = 457.2 mm Powder : IMR 3031 Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -17.9 76 23.00 1141 954 12934 3127 74.1 2.189 -16.1 77 23.50 1169 1001 13646 3249 75.6 2.132 -14.3 79 24.00 1196 1048 14392 3371 77.1 2.077 -12.5 81 24.50 1224 1098 15174 3492 78.6 2.023 -10.7 82 25.00 1252 1148 15999 3612 80.0 1.972 -08.9 84 25.50 1280 1200 16863 3731 81.4 1.922 -07.1 86 26.00 1308 1253 17771 3849 82.7 1.874 -05.4 87 26.50 1336 1307 18725 3965 84.0 1.828 -03.6 89 27.00 1364 1363 19727 4079 85.2 1.783 -01.8 90 27.50 1392 1420 20780 4191 86.4 1.739 +00.0 92 28.00 1420 1479 21888 4300 87.6 1.698 +01.8 94 28.50 1449 1538 23052 4406 88.7 1.657 +03.6 95 29.00 1477 1599 24276 4510 89.7 1.617 +05.4 97 29.50 1505 1661 25565 4611 90.7 1.579 +07.1 99 30.00 1534 1724 26922 4708 91.7 1.542 +08.9 100 30.50 1562 1788 28351 4802 92.6 1.506
You really did not specify details for 300 BO (barrel length, bullet weight & seating depth really matter). I made some guesses.
Code:Cartridge : .300 AAC Blackout Bullet : .312, 160, LEE CTL312-160-2R Seating Depth : .240 inch Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.096 inch = 53.24 mm Barrel Length : 18.0 inch = 457.2 mm Powder : IMR 3031 Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -25.0 85 15.00 1178 509 11690 2353 58.7 2.066 -22.5 87 15.50 1223 548 12728 2525 61.1 1.984 -20.0 90 16.00 1269 590 13855 2699 63.5 1.904 -17.5 93 16.50 1316 635 15078 2876 65.9 1.828 -15.0 96 17.00 1364 682 16413 3053 68.2 1.755 -12.5 99 17.50 1413 732 17865 3232 70.5 1.686 -10.0 101 18.00 1463 785 19450 3409 72.8 1.620 -07.5 104 18.50 1514 840 21180 3585 75.0 1.557 -05.0 107 19.00 1565 898 23073 3759 77.2 1.496 -02.5 110 19.50 1617 958 25149 3929 79.3 1.438Code:Cartridge : .300 AAC Blackout Bullet : .308, 214, LYM LRN GC 311284 Seating Depth : .317 inch Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.250 inch = 57.15 mm Barrel Length : 18.0 inch = 457.2 mm Powder : IMR 3031 Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -25.0 91 15.00 1216 713 16945 3048 77.1 1.968 -22.5 94 15.50 1263 769 18590 3222 79.5 1.883 -20.0 97 16.00 1311 828 20390 3393 81.7 1.803 -17.5 100 16.50 1359 889 22373 3558 83.9 1.727 -15.0 103 17.00 1407 953 24548 3718 86.0 1.655 -12.5 106 17.50 1455 1020 26943 3871 87.9 1.586 -10.0 109 18.00 1504 1090 29585 4016 89.7 1.521
Last edited by P Flados; 11-07-2022 at 09:36 PM.
I have used 3031 in the 30 Herrett, but it was under a 150 gr as I recall. I can run tables for 30 Herrett, but I would not recommend anything bigger than a 180. Again details like bullet weight, seating depth and barrel length would help.
Wow! Thank you for taking the time to check all those in your program! I probably should research it and buy myself a copy of the program. I’m out of town this week so I can’t get correct oal for a few days.
I didn’t know it has the muzzle pressure feature. Fascinating! I’ve been wanting to try Vihtavuori N310 in 9mm 16” and maybe a 24” with a goal of low muzzle pressure. Might save the cost of a barrel stub job to get the 24” if it doesn’t make much difference.
Recently came into a 358 jd jones super 14 barrel and just started playing with it. Got some 200 grain hornady spire points because they are all that’s available. There’s a little data they emailed me when I bought the dies. I don’t have many of the powders they tested. N140 was on there and I’ve got N540.
How much is the program?
Thanks!!
I just finished reading the seven pages from the sticky Larry Gibson started about the load manual error. I guess I need to use the chronograph much more frequently than I have been...
It is not cheap and it requires a CD drive. I had to buy a usb plug in drive for my laptop. It also took me a while to feel comfortable using it.
https://www.neconos.com/quickload-ba...tion-software/
I have played around quite a bit looking a muzzle pressures. The general result is that the lowest muzzle pressure will be with the fastest powder that will give you your desired velocity without exceeding the chamber pressure limit. Also, the smaller the net case volume the lower the muzzle pressure.
What bullet weight, seating depth and desired velocity are you thinking.
Last edited by P Flados; 11-08-2022 at 06:47 PM.
I’m currently casting with the Lee 150 grain 358” mold and use plenty of 124 grain jhp from a small company in Lewiston Idaho. Still out of town so can’t get oal measurements. I’d say go with book length or 0.050” shorter. I understand that with a heavy bullet and a tiny case, the seating depth changes the internal volume drastically. Would love to see muzzle pressure with 16” and 24” barrels. N310 is the fastest powder I currently have. Vihtavuori data is thin with N310, I assume because it’s such a fast burn rate with limited usefulness.
If the project is feasible, I’ll buy a round flat point or something better for small critters than a round nose mold.
Thanks again for your help!
3031 is a great powder. I once used it the most. Especially hunting rounds. It’s a faster powder so should work in reduced loads. I always remember the big flame that came out of the muzzle when shooting at night. Definitely more than the other powders I was using.
For your 9 mm muzzle pressure study, here is a 16" and a 24" for comparison. If this is for a contender or stronger gun, pressures up to 55 ksi would be ok for the gun. However, the ammo would be unsafe if it inadvertently would up in the wrong gun.
Code:Cartridge : 9 mm Luger +P (SAAMI) Bullet : .358, 150, LEE 358-150-1R Useable Case Capaci: 8.685 grain H2O = 0.564 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.169 inch = 29.69 mm Barrel Length : 16.0 inch = 406.4 mm Powder : Vihtavuori N310 Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -33.3 43 2.00 808 217 12667 324 100.0 2.092 -30.0 45 2.10 830 230 13855 338 100.0 2.024 -26.7 47 2.20 852 242 15099 351 100.0 1.961 -23.3 49 2.30 874 254 16401 365 100.0 1.903 -20.0 52 2.40 894 266 17760 378 100.0 1.850 -16.7 54 2.50 915 279 19175 391 100.0 1.800 -13.3 56 2.60 935 291 20649 404 100.0 1.754 -10.0 58 2.70 954 303 22180 417 100.0 1.711 -06.7 60 2.80 974 316 23770 430 100.0 1.670 -03.3 62 2.90 993 328 25419 443 100.0 1.632 +00.0 64 3.00 1011 341 27128 456 100.0 1.596 +03.3 67 3.10 1030 353 28898 468 100.0 1.562 +06.7 69 3.20 1048 366 30729 481 100.0 1.530 +10.0 71 3.30 1066 378 32623 493 100.0 1.500 +13.3 73 3.40 1083 391 34580 506 100.0 1.471 ! Near Maximum ! +16.7 75 3.50 1101 403 36603 518 100.0 1.444 ! Near Maximum !Code:Cartridge : 9 mm Luger +P (SAAMI) Bullet : .358, 150, LEE 358-150-1R Useable Case Capaci: 8.685 grain H2O = 0.564 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.169 inch = 29.69 mm Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm Powder : Vihtavuori N310 Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge, incremented in steps of 3.333% of nominal charge. CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads ! Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -33.3 43 2.00 838 234 12667 195 100.0 2.901 -30.0 45 2.10 860 247 13855 204 100.0 2.812 -26.7 47 2.20 883 259 15099 212 100.0 2.729 -23.3 49 2.30 904 272 16401 220 100.0 2.653 -20.0 52 2.40 925 285 17760 228 100.0 2.582 -16.7 54 2.50 946 298 19175 236 100.0 2.516 -13.3 56 2.60 967 311 20649 243 100.0 2.455 -10.0 58 2.70 987 324 22180 251 100.0 2.397 -06.7 60 2.80 1006 337 23770 259 100.0 2.343 -03.3 62 2.90 1026 350 25419 267 100.0 2.292 +00.0 64 3.00 1045 363 27128 274 100.0 2.244 +03.3 67 3.10 1063 377 28898 282 100.0 2.199 +06.7 69 3.20 1082 390 30729 289 100.0 2.156 +10.0 71 3.30 1100 403 32623 297 100.0 2.115 +13.3 73 3.40 1118 416 34580 304 100.0 2.077 ! Near Maximum ! +16.7 75 3.50 1135 429 36603 312 100.0 2.040 ! Near Maximum !
Last edited by P Flados; 11-09-2022 at 12:36 AM.
For safely running higher pressures, the 9 x 23 is rated 55 ksi. I am pretty sure you could make the brass from cut down 223.
Just for the fun of it, I ran a Lee 102 first:
And here is a 158 gr. This gets you close to 357 magnum handgun performance with a 440 psi muzzle pressure.Code:Cartridge : 9 x 23 Win. Bullet : .356, 102, LEE 356-102-1R Useable Case Capaci: 14.309 grain H2O = 0.929 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.260 inch = 32.00 mm Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm Powder : Vihtavuori N310 Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -14.3 78 6.00 1722 671 42993 580 100.0 1.383 -12.9 80 6.10 1737 683 44399 588 100.0 1.369 -11.4 81 6.20 1752 695 45832 596 100.0 1.355 -10.0 82 6.30 1767 707 47292 603 100.0 1.341 -08.6 83 6.40 1782 719 48779 611 100.0 1.328 -07.1 85 6.50 1797 731 50294 619 100.0 1.315 -05.7 86 6.60 1812 743 51838 626 100.0 1.302 -04.3 87 6.70 1826 755 53410 634 100.0 1.290 -02.9 89 6.80 1841 767 55011 641 100.0 1.278
And here is one row of the 158 load in a 16" barrelCode:artridge : 9 x 23 Win. Bullet : .358, 158, LEE 358-158-RF Useable Case Capaci: 10.554 grain H2O = 0.685 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.260 inch = 32.00 mm Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm Powder : Vihtavuori N310 Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -20.0 71 4.00 1168 479 37695 371 100.0 1.997 ! -18.0 72 4.10 1183 491 39475 379 100.0 1.967 -16.0 74 4.20 1199 504 41301 387 100.0 1.938 -14.0 76 4.30 1214 517 43172 394 100.0 1.910 -12.0 78 4.40 1229 530 45090 402 100.0 1.884 -10.0 80 4.50 1244 543 47056 410 100.0 1.858 -08.0 81 4.60 1259 556 49070 417 100.0 1.834 -06.0 83 4.70 1273 569 51134 425 100.0 1.810 -04.0 85 4.80 1288 582 53249 432 100.0 1.787 -02.0 87 4.90 1302 595 55416 440 100.0 1.764
Code:-02.0 87 4.90 1262 558 55416 732 100.0 1.244
Last edited by P Flados; 11-09-2022 at 01:08 AM.
And here is a 200 gr sub load for the 9 x 23 in a 24"
Code:Cartridge : 9 x 23 Win. Bullet : .358, 200, LEE C358-200-RF Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.300 inch = 33.02 mm Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm Powder : Alliant GREEN DOT Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -15.0 106 3.40 994 439 43424 297 100.0 2.293 -12.5 109 3.50 1010 453 46180 304 100.0 2.251
Last edited by P Flados; 11-09-2022 at 01:59 AM.
I noticed green dot was the powder for the 200 grain subsonic load. Were the pressures absurd using N310?
I sure wish I was home to look at my notes. A couple of years ago I tinkered with really light charges with the 150 grain Lee. Off the top of my head I went from 1.8 grains down to 1.2 grains of Vihtavuori N310 Powder. I was surprised that the carbine length still cycling at the beginning of the test. Towards the lowest powder charge the velocity and accuracy got erratic. I hadn’t thought about going to an even heavier (200 grain) boolet.
There’s a significant drop in muzzle pressure from 16” to 24” so I probably will go ahead with the project. David White did some work for me in the past, but I believe he passed away. I asked Mike Bellm a few months back when the 24” blank arrived if he would do the barrel stub job, and he said he was swamped and checked with him after Christmas.
Interesting thought with the 9x23 for going larger later. Would the muzzle pressure be lower starting with 380 brass instead of beginning with 9mm? I assume that’s probably a ridiculous question because the seating depth in either case will be limited to the oal where the boolet base gets deformed by the internal taper.
I’ll have to make some dummy rounds when I get home and try to find an actual oal with the 200 grain Lee in 9mm And 380.
I never dreamed that this much progress could be made without having the stub job done and doing field testing.
Thanks again!!
I used Green Dot to get ~1000 fps with ok chamber pressure and low muzzle pressure. There were actually quite a few other powders that would "work" in a similar fashion. However, many of the really fast powders (N310 included) needed over 55 ksi chamber pressure to get 1000 fps.
My use of 9 x 23 was entirely to show what an existing small capacity round rated at 55 ksi could do in the way of getting low muzzle pressures and useful performance.
For "testing" only, I am willing to run cartridges way over the SAAMI pressure limit if I know it is safe in a gun. However, I have figured out that I am not perfect and I can loose track of things. As such, I refuse to consider routine use of ammo loaded well above SAAMI in a common cartridge. This is just a hobby, and I do not want to take any chance that a "fun little toy" turns into an event that destroys a gun and/or hurts someone.
If I were to embark on such a rifle, I would most likely go with a 23 mm long "stretched 380" wildcat using 223 brass. It would have the same chamber ID as a 380, and I would need to figure out what kind of throat is needed to for all of the bullets expected to be used. I would "neck turn" the brass on my mini-lathe to get the brass thickness Ok for chambering ammo loaded with 0.357" bullets. This would effectively duplicate the 9 x 23, but with a near infinite supply of low cost (but high effort) brass.
Starting with a standard 380 or 9mm chamber might be a way to go. The "for testing only" ammo can be loaded up to both 38.5 ksi (9 mm +p) and to 55 ksi just to see how these pressure levels work out. If the 38.5 ksi pressure ammo is "good enough", the ability to use 9mm brass is a big deal. If the 55 ksi ammo makes a big enough improvement in performance, it could justify something like buying say 200 rounds of 9 x 23 brass from Starline or making the 23 mm long stretched 380 brass.
Note that I have dabbled in this kind of thing to some extent. At least 90% of my shooting is with handguns at a nearby indoor range. I made a 7.4" stub tube Contender barrel from a pulled 30-30 barrel. The chamber is pretty much 32 ACP but I use brass with the rim dimensions of the 32 S&W. My current batch of brass is made from 9mm cases. You could call it a rimmed 30 ACP. I love shooting this thing at 30' paper targets with a 55 gr tumble lube NLG boolit over 1.7 gr TightGroup. Velocity is around 890 fps. However, I also have fired a few rounds with the Lee 150. I do not remember the exact load but it was probably in the 800 to 900 fps range. It was a lot of "thump" with very little muzzle blast or noise. It looked wild as the exposed portion of bullet was longer than the case. I did something to extend the "nose riding" portion of the boolit down closer to the base so it would chamber.
Attachment 306669
Last edited by P Flados; 11-09-2022 at 02:12 PM.
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