I make furniture for a living. So, being able to grab a handful of plugs and stuff them into screw holes quickly without making a mess of glue or plugs going hither and thither benefits the reloading dexterity.
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I make furniture for a living. So, being able to grab a handful of plugs and stuff them into screw holes quickly without making a mess of glue or plugs going hither and thither benefits the reloading dexterity.
The blue is the crimp groove that portion above the crimp groove is the forward driving band.
Here’s a picture of my bench, from the door of my roughly 6’x6’ room.
The blue and green arrows are crimp grooves.
Usually, crimp grooves will have a taper going up towards the nose.
It gives the crimp a place to go without distorting the boolit.
The red boolit's crimp groove will be more forgiving of slightly different case lengths.
In school: We learn lessons, and are given tests.
In life: We are given tests, and learn lessons.
OK People. Enough of this idle chit-chat.
This ain't your Grandma's sewing circle.
EVERYONE!
Back to your oars. The Captain wants to waterski.
Awesome, thank you.
Sorry 1 more question... I looked at several variations of directions for the expander die. I'm using an NOE expander plug with a Lee expander die (part of the 3 die set).
In all the instructions I am to back it off some variation of turns. When I do this however, it never actually expands anything.
I have to screw it in until it touches the shell holder, and thats the only time it will expand. Here is what it looks like.
I imagine this is OK (the bullet sits without touching it), i just thought it was weird it doesnt match any instructions ive read
I made a test round with no primer or powder.
Maybe I am retarded, but I read the lee instructions for bullet seating + crimping die a number of times, but I still don't understand them. I think it is confusing because it explains each die separately as if it were a 4 die set... however I have a 3 die set. It doesnt really distinguish between the 2 dies when talking about them separately, so I have no idea how in practice to seat this die when they're combined.
The screw knob at the top, I see that controls bullet depth. But how do I control the crimp level, is that the screwing in of the die? How am I supposed to adjust both crimp level and bullet depth simultaneously (meaning if I adjust crimp first the bullet cant be adjusted for seating after, and if I adjust bullet depth first, then when I screw the die to adjust crimp level it will require changing the bullet depth again I think).
I screwed it in till it touches shell holder, unscrewed 3 turns + 1 1/4 turns extra (because magnum). Then, i kept raising and lowering ram while tightening the top small thumb-screw until the bullet fit right into the grooves.
TBH I cant tell if this is crimped or not, lol. Also there is a bulge where the bullet is, very subtle difference, you can see it in the photos. I'm not sure if I should be concerned by that... however it is an oversized lead bullet (.358) so maybe not.
I test cycled all 3 lever guns that use .357 magnum and it seemed to fit well.................
Your test bullet is not crimped. The bulge in the middle of your case is normal.
The belling die looks like it’s set a bit too deep. But better a bit too much than not enough.
That bullet is not seated deep enough. It needs to have the case mouth at the bottom edge of the top driving band. Maybe with a tiny bit of crimp groove showing.
Keep in mind I ain’t familiar with lee dies. So I’m assuming they both seat and crimp at the same time.
You have to adjust the crimp by screwing the die in or out then you have to adjust the seating depth separately.
The way you do it is like this, using a belled case and a bullet
Adjust your die up in the press so it won’t crimp at all. Then screw the seating plug in until it seats the bullet where you want. So you seat a bullet to depth, no crimp.
Then you back the seating stem all the way out so it doesn’t move the bullet, and screw the die in until it crimps a bit. Screw it in more until it crimps the way you want. I measure this crimp and go about .008 or .010 for a heavy crimp, .004 for light. Measure the case just below the mouth and then measure the crimp best you can and use that as a rough “there’s my .008”.
Then, after the crimp is set, you run that round up in the die and screw the seating stem all the way in, tight against the bullet. It will now do both operations at the same time. When you do it at the same time, the measurement of oal will change and you may need to tweak the setting slightly. Usually the seating depth will need to be increased in my experience.
If you have too much crimp, it will actually buckle the case enough it won’t chamber.
Here’s 44 special and about .010 crimp. Disregard the surface flaws on my cast bullets.
The bulge is pretty normal.
The case is sized a little more than it needs to be for that particular lot/brand of brass. I don't worry about it.
The new ammo factory has more control over the final tweaky things like that than we do.
A plus for that is that there's no way the boolit can be 'set back' in the case under recoil.
Your flare looks OK. You only need to do it enough for the boolit to sit square on the charged case
while you get it into the seater die. That's one thing I like about Lee's flaring die-
it doesn't roll a big bell shape on the case if it's set a little too deep.
If you flare more than needed, it'll tend to shorten the life span of the case before it splits.
What works for me is to screw the seater die down until it touches the case. Then raise it just a little & lock it down.
Adjust the seater plug where you want and do the seating.
Some folks seat & crimp in one step. I don't. I always crimp as a separate step. I'm not sure why.
After seating the batch, raise the seater plug way up,
adjust the die body down a little at a time until you get the crimp you want, then lock it.
Last edited by Winger Ed.; 11-05-2022 at 06:11 PM.
In school: We learn lessons, and are given tests.
In life: We are given tests, and learn lessons.
OK People. Enough of this idle chit-chat.
This ain't your Grandma's sewing circle.
EVERYONE!
Back to your oars. The Captain wants to waterski.
@Winger + @bazoo, thanks. I will need to revisit what you wrote about seating depth + crimp tomorrow, as that reloading session was very stressful the first time doing that lol.
I did 25 as a test run (before I saw your reply).
For my formula I used 4.5 gr Hodgdon Titegroup according to the loading data. My bullet is 158 gr lead RNFP (not SWC in the formula)
1. Thanks for pointing out about the bullet depth, I will make sure next time the case mouth goes to the bottom of the top driving band. Do you think the seating depth error is OK to shoot these 25 (just this time) or should I fix them first?
2. How do you measure the crimp (ie .008, .010, etc). Do you just use calipers on the part of the brass right below the crimp, and then at the smallest diameter of the crimp, and subtract those?
3. For shooting these 25, I'll skip the crimp and manually feed these 25 into the lever gun 1 at a time. On my next batch when my mind is fresh I will re-read what you wrote about adjusting the dies for crimp+seating simultaneously.
4. Thanks for pointing out belling, maybe I will go back 1/4 turn after I hit the shell holder (right now its not backed off at all)
================
Now I have some other random questions and comments
- Seating primers was very stressful. The manual makes it very clear not to force it, yet, using the hand tool some large amount of force is required (and yes I have small primer size in). After getting a bit of courage to squeeze it really hard, I did one and seated it properly. The 2nd one I did, I tried to use the same force, I aligned the primer visually in the feeder before placing the brass in the shell holder. When I squeezed (squoze?), it sheared part of the primer off and I was very happy it didn't go off (I had eye/ear pro on). I put that tool away, and decided to try the ram to seat primers. That went better and didn't have any issues, so I guess I will use that method until I'm more comfortable. Here is how much I seated them (image below).
- I found trying to measure the primer seating depth with the tiny rod on the end of the caliper to be a massive pain in the ass. there is nowhere to hold the calipers to do this easily, and if you try to "push" the rod in using the primer it doesnt budge, so I didnt want to use much force there on the primer. I would love to know a better way to do this... I got readings between .003 and .009 but the .009 could have been from me and not a proper measurement.
- I will definitely need to fix my workflow when priming + powder + seating. I didn't focus as much on that this time around as I REALLY wanted to focus on not double/no charging, and making sure the powder was exactly 4.5 gr. I basically belled 25 and placed them mouth up in the shell holder. Then, I set the electronic scale out, put it on manual mode and pressed "GO". Once it was done, I grabbed an empty case, poured it in, immediately put it on the press, put a bullet in and seated it. I would usually push go after putting the powder thing there so it would go while I was seating.
- The powder is incredibly sticky, I assume from static. I dunno if you have any tips for getting the powder OUT of the little scale cup. I banged the cup on the brass 5-10 times to try to get it all out. Some went on the table, some stuck all to the scale. I wouldn't call it a "mess" but the static definitely is a pain in the ass. If anyone has a recommended anti-static product I am all ears.
- I measured the powder from electronic scale periodically on the beam scale, and was pleased that it was perfect.
All in all, I would give it a 5/10 on the "perfect" level, but I'm pleased that I took my time, I'm pretty sure I did everything accurate enough to be comfortable shooting it, but I wanted to ask first given that the bullet seating is off as stated.
If I forgot anything someone told me, forgive me, I was hyper focused on doing it correctly
Last edited by Mint; 11-05-2022 at 08:40 PM.
It’s safe to shoot the bullets you seated long, but you also can use those to set up the seat crimp die. I’d use them to set it and run the rest through personally.
Regarding how much force is needed for primer seating, some brass is easier than others. I’d say you just need to get used to it. I don’t have a problem using calipers to measure primer depth. Practice at it? The .003 ones vs the .009 ones, how do they feel with a finger. Your finger will tell you if they are right below the surface or way below. I rarely measure, but I feel every one. Your primers look good. It ain’t as hard as folks make it out, priming I mean.
As far as measuring crimp, yeah that’s how I measure, what you said in #2.
First for static, use a dryer sheet. Then if that don’t work, take a pencil and crush some lead to get powdered graphite. Wipe that on a finger tip and rub it all in the cup. Powder has graphite on it.
Wow, awesome tips! That's a great idea with dryer sheet and powdered graphite.
I just belled and primed another 25 to prepare for tomorrow, and I found out how to better adjust expansion like you stated. I need to do 1/8th turn. Seating primers went smooth.
I really don't like the priming arm, it feels very janky and unprecise. Sometimes it will have a certain physical sensation (it "jumpes" in give), yet other times it's a linear give and I can't even tell if it seated, and it will have... I think it's do to even a slight variation in seating in the shell holder.
Do you think this feels significantly better than the arm primer? https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012930411?pid=416519
I always see people mention ram priming, and maybe it was even you (I cant remember now, so much info I've read...), I remember they prefer ram priming. I would buy this in a heartbeat if its even moderately better.
Also, this is probably discussed 5 other times but I think it's best if I'm combing it, to seat the primer in the expansion step right (if using the primer arm). If I use a primer ram, does it still go in the expansion step?
Tomorrow I think I'm going to use Accurate No. 5 just to switch it up. I want to make a lighter load.
I'm looking at this PDF:
https://ramshot.com/wp-content/uploa...ide8.0_WEB.pdf
Under .38 Spl for Accurate No. 5 is:
And under .357 magnum for Accurate No. 5 is:
I know I asked this question before but JUST making sure for this exact recipe I'm doing everything right... better to be slightly annoying and persistent than... prematurely ending my reloading career
Does this mean it's SAFE to do a START charge of 5.3 and a MAX charge of 9.0? (So basically I have sort of combined 2 recipes). Max would not be approached by me at my experience level, not the exact same type of bullet/primers, etc.
I basically want a velocity less than the starting velocity on 357 magnum. I was thinking around 6.0 just looking at the velocities. I would imagine this is OK but I am just making sure.....
Last edited by Mint; 11-06-2022 at 10:16 AM.
That powder charge (between 38 special max and 357 magnum minimum) would be safe in 357 magnum cases, but of course not in 38 special. The max though might not be safe since you don’t have the same bullets they used. For a max charge you have to have data for that specific bullet, or a very close bullet, and it helps to have a lot of experience.
I like ram priming. It is a separate step however. Be honest with you I can’t remember what it feels like using the arm primer on a press since it’s been so long. I seem to recall it being mushy feeling. It shouldn’t be jerky no matter what. Are you sure you have the small primer assembly in the arm? The arm assembly should work without a hitch. It could be its catching on the shell holder sometimes. It could be the priming ram and cup is catching and sliding out slightly, and then seating again as the primer is pushed in. Is the set screw tight? I assume lee uses a set screw like everyone else?
I use a lyman ram prime. I didn’t care for the lee ram prime. I had slight issues with the lyman but it was easy for me to correct and I’m happy as a lark with it. It offers a good feel.
I’ve tried the lee hand primer, actually I used it several years. It was okay but it hurt my hands after a while. So I switched to ram priming.
One thing I think I should mention, with priming, with bullet seating, with catching cases when sizing, depending on the press, technique, and components, you may need to pause the stroke of the handle, go back slightly, then proceed to pull the handle. I often do this when seating bullets to make sure the bullets are touching the nose of the seating stem squarely.
You can prime after sizing or belling. But if you are going to use a powder through die, and later if you go with a turret press or progressive then that’s what you’ll want to do, then you will prime after sizing.
Since I don’t do powder through expanding currently, I prime after belling.
Ain’t you glad now that you didn’t start on a Dillion? It’s not hard but it does take some thorough thought process huh. All the little nuances that you are learning, I don’t even think about. It all comes second nature after you do it a while. Especially after you establish a routine.
You'll develop a feel for seating primers.
Some seem to drop in, others are rather stuff.
With any brand of the hand priming tools, It helps to wear a sort of thin to medium thickness leather work glove.
Depending on the weather & all, sometimes there seems to be a lot of static electricity in the air.
Plastic stuff makes it seem worse. Grounding will help. If you can't go to a water pipe or something through the floor,
even a wire on going down to the concrete floor with a weight on it or being under the leg of the bench will help.
My bench is all steel, and is pretty heavy. All presses are bolted to it,
and just the steel legs on the concrete floor seems to do a good job for me.
I've heard of people using those grounding bracelets like you'd wear to work on sensative electronics,
but I never felt the need to.
Last edited by Winger Ed.; 11-05-2022 at 11:39 PM.
In school: We learn lessons, and are given tests.
In life: We are given tests, and learn lessons.
OK People. Enough of this idle chit-chat.
This ain't your Grandma's sewing circle.
EVERYONE!
Back to your oars. The Captain wants to waterski.
Bazoo, I owe you a beer.. you're an absolute King ♛Originally Posted by Bazoo
Regarding what you said about the load data, makes 1000% sense, that is exactly in line with what I was thinking (only ever in 357 mag case, stay very far away from max charge because of bullet/seating/primer type variations, as well as my experience level). I feel good that it's all clicking finally quite well, and I'm starting to know the answer before asking. I feel like I'm well over the hill and into the clearing, I don't have infinite branching questions anymore, and all the info is perfectly settling. Thanks greatly for all your help.
Regarding the priming arm (its RCBS btw, and came with the Rock Chucker), I wouldnt say that it's jerky... but it will offer resistance, then it will "give" for maybe an inch or two of easy movement, and it will encounter resistance again (which is where i stop). But other times, there is no "give" but rather just an even pressure. In both cases, the primer looks identically seated. I just can only assume its due to the primer just being very slightly off in the shell holder. The screw is tight. Also I will be absolutely sure but the small primer arm was the first thing I set up.
I'd love to use a powder-through die along with neck expansion, but I dont think I can using this NOE expander because it's solid (unlike the stock expander), so I suppose I will just continue to do that as a separate step...
Yes I was just telling my friend this on the phone. I think the Dillon would have been awesome but I'm SUPER glad I took your and other's advice, even though the efficient part of me wanted to do it anyway. I think the greatest thing that is hard to convey, and can only be experienced, is how the entire process is actually very stimulating, fun, and rewarding. I was not expecting the process to be this attention grabbing, I wanted to just churn out rounds in little time as possible. But throughout the day I will go out to the shed and study or tinker, research load data, etc. That would have been exceptionally hard to explore and work on figuring out WHAT loads I even want if it werent for this SS press. I suppose that's another point that I didn't quite realize, is just because you have a load book doesnt mean you have any clue as a beginner WHICH load you actually want. Even with all the help, it feels a bit like picking one arbitrarily sometimes. Trying to pick an arbitrary one, choosing wrong, on a dillon, seems like a pain. Now, when I get a dillon at some point in future I will be well prepared to churn out the recipes I already have tested and love.
Last edited by Mint; 11-06-2022 at 12:13 AM.
Thanks to you as well, I ALSO owe you a beer.
Are you saying I can ground my entire workbench and that will help with static? Do I just run some kind of alligator clip with a wire (connected to metal part of bench) and nail it into the ground. THe top of the bench is thick wood, so I'm not sure if that matters.
What is the purpose of the leather glove?
Being wood, it might not work. Another thing would be to ground yourself. Rubber sole shoes insulate you from the floor.
People working on sensitive electronics wear a $5.00 bracelet that connects to a ground with a little clip.
Look for anti-static wrist band on Amazon.
The glove helps you to be able to seat more primers before the blisters come up.
In school: We learn lessons, and are given tests.
In life: We are given tests, and learn lessons.
OK People. Enough of this idle chit-chat.
This ain't your Grandma's sewing circle.
EVERYONE!
Back to your oars. The Captain wants to waterski.
I glad to see someone get started. Dunno why I was thinking it was a lee press cause I seen the picture and where you said it was a RC. But it’s lee dies. I went the other way, lee press and RCBS dies.
What you describe in priming is how it feels when using mixed brass. I wouldn’t think it would do it with new though. What brand of primers? I’ve had Winchester primers feel that way.
Last edited by Bazoo; 11-07-2022 at 06:11 PM.
They were CCI small pistol primers in an OEM box.
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