Another bear-gun question....

[M-Tecs]

Both Buffalo Bore and Garrett produce high performance lever gun 45/70 loads.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...duct_list&c=35

45-70 Magnum - Lever Gun Ammo - 500 gr. FMJ-FN (1,625fps/M.E.2,931 ft.lbs.)

45-70 Magnum - Lever Gun Ammo - 405 gr. J.F.N.(2,000fps/M.E.3,597 ft.lbs.)

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570.html

I have tested some the Buffalo Bore velocities and yes they match their claims.

We use only factory stock firearms in recording published velocities, so you get true, actual field velocities with our ammo -- not exaggerated long laboratory test barrel velocities.

Item 8A (430gr. Hard Cast penetrator)

➤ 1920 fps -- Marlin 1895, 22-inch barrel
➤ 1879 fps -- Marlin 1895 Guide Gun, 18.5-inch barrel

Item 8B (405gr. JFN expander)

➤ 2002 fps -- Marlin 1895, 22-inch barrel
➤ 1955 fps -- Marlin 1895 Guide Gun, 18.5-inch barrel

Item 8C (350gr. JFN penetrator)

➤ 2145 fps -- Marlin 1895, 22-inch barrel
➤ 2060 fps -- Marlin 1895 Guide Gun, 18.5-inch barrel

Item 8D (500gr. Barnes Buster FMJ-FN penetrator)

➤ 1628 fps -- Marlin 1895, 22-inch barrel
➤ 1590 fps -- Marlin 1895 Guide Gun, 18.5-inch barrel

Item 8E (300gr JHP expander)

➤ 2355 fps -- Marlin 1895, 22-inch barrel
➤ 2263 fps -- Marlin 1895 Guide Gun, 18.5-inch barrel


Many a Grizzly Bear, Cape Buffalo, Bison and other dangerous game have fallen to our 45-70 loads since we began 45-70 production 1999. Below is an idea of what type of game these loads were designed for.


Item 8A -- for game where 5 to 6 feet of straight line non-expanded penetration is needed.

Item 8B -- the bullet utilized expands to an inch or more in diameter at our velocities, and hence penetration is limited to about two feet in flesh and bone. This is the single most effective hog and black bear load ever devised in 45-70. I don't use it on animals weighing more than 800 lbs as it won't give adequate penetration at bad angles for animals larger than 800 lbs. If you'll limit yourself to broadside (double lung) and CNS hits, this load will work on 2,000 lb animals.

Item 8C -- The bullet we utilize in this load is very tough and gives only a small to moderately sized mushroom (about .60 cal) and because of the smallish mushroom, it penetrates very deep -- about 4 feet in muscles and bone and as such is a great bullet for use on dangerous game and smaller game too as it does expand some. This load is the most versatile of our 45-70 loads.

Item 8D -- This bullet is a solid and won't mushroom and thus will penetrate 5 to 6 feet in muscle and bone.

Item 8E -- the bullet utilized in this load will expand radically and will penetrate only about 18 to 24 inches in muscle and bone and was designed for use on animals weighing no more than 400 lbs. At 2350 fps it is very fast and flat shooting. (For a 45-70)

500-gr Woodleigh Weld-Core JSP at 1600-fps

540-gr SuperHardCast gas-checked Hammerhead at 1550-fps

[Soundguy]

That shotgun slug is likely dead soft and will penetrate poorly.. Soft, flat.. Might do great surface wounds..but if you hit a bone..while it will pulverized it..it may not go deep.

The harder .458 will for sure go deep enough to hit a vital organ from any angle thru bone. Balance hardness to prevent shoot-thru. I'd go rifle over musket any day. I'd hate a wounded bear to run off in agony..and not be able to take safe distance follow up shots because my lead baseball bat cannon with a only-front bead was a luck shot after 40 yards...vs my rifle bullhorn sights going out to at least 120 on a bear sized target..thats 3x more safe shooting distance..

[fenderman57]

Sounds like we're comparing a properly loaded slug gun to 45-70 backyard beer can loads. I shoot a 470 gr. @ 1650 fps. from a Henry single shot and it's not near max. My son shoots the same boolit @1800 from his guide gun.

[M-Tecs]

Sounds like we're comparing a properly loaded slug gun to 45-70 backyard beer can loads. I shoot a 470 gr. @ 1650 fps. from a Henry single shot and it's not near max. My son shoots the same boolit @1800 from his guide gun.

Correct. This is not a bullet I would use for bear defense but the bulk 405 Remington in a Max but levergun safe loads give me 1970 out of my guide gun. With that combo my Guide Gun identifies as a match rifle.

[Ramjet-SS]

I absolutely love my 45/70 single shot. I am big fan of the heavy WFN bullets loaded to moderate velocities. I run a 440 grain WFN in my 480 Ruger Leverguns at around 1200 FPS they will penetrate 48” of water soaked news print. 45/70 will do the same.

Someone mentioned shotgun slugs being large and soft lead. Not always the case there solid copper bullets available for rifled shotguns. They accommodate this with a sabot.

[jonp]

Depends on the bear as you dont specify. If a black bear anything from 30-30 up is enough and a pistol caliber 44mag or 45lc with 45lc if you handload. If your talking grizzly or brown nothing is too big and id consider a 45-70 the mininum but thats just me.
Ive taken several blacks including one with a GP100 357Mag and it did the job but it would not be my first choice unless as a hip gun for the finish.

[Gunlaker]

It depends on the type of bear. Even a very big black bear is generally a lot less trouble than an adult grizzly. I wouldn't think of anything less than my Marlin in .45-70 for having to deal with an adult grizzly. We have lots of them up here. When you see one in person, up close, you realize that you are going to want the biggest thing you are capable of shooting well. If you meet an angry grizzly bear up close, what happens is mostly up to the bear. Unless you completely immobilize it quickly, it's going to turn you to pulp if it wants to.

Chris.

[GregLaROCHE]

A gold miner I knew had a black bear in his camp. He yelled at the bear and it went up a tree. He didn’t want to deal with killing the bear, so he loaded a round of birdshot in his 12 ga. He planned to sting it in the but to chase it away. The bear flinched, but stayed in the tree. Five minutes later it fell out of the tree stone dead. Just goes to show that you never know how much it takes to kill a bear.

[M-Tecs]

A gold miner I knew had a black bear in his camp. He yelled at the bear and it went up a tree. He didn’t want to deal with killing the bear, so he loaded a round of birdshot in his 12 ga. He planned to sting it in the but to chase it away. The bear flinched, but stayed in the tree. Five minutes later it fell out of the tree stone dead. Just goes to show that you never know how much it takes to kill a bear.

If he was under 40 yards away that tends to happen even with fine shot like #8.

[Ramjet-SS]

A gold miner I knew had a black bear in his camp. He yelled at the bear and it went up a tree. He didn’t want to deal with killing the bear, so he loaded a round of birdshot in his 12 ga. He planned to sting it in the but to chase it away. The bear flinched, but stayed in the tree. Five minutes later it fell out of the tree stone dead. Just goes to show that you never know how much it takes to kill a bear.

Oops

[W.R.Buchanan]

That shotgun slug is likely dead soft and will penetrate poorly.. Soft, flat.. Might do great surface wounds..but if you hit a bone..while it will pulverized it..it may not go deep.

The harder .458 will for sure go deep enough to hit a vital organ from any angle thru bone. Balance hardness to prevent shoot-thru. I'd go rifle over musket any day. I'd hate a wounded bear to run off in agony..and not be able to take safe distance follow up shots because my lead baseball bat cannon with a only-front bead was a luck shot after 40 yards...vs my rifle bullhorn sights going out to at least 120 on a bear sized target.. That's 3x more safe shooting distance..

550 gr Brass Slug in Slugs r Us (now Blood Trail/Leon is Us!) Sabot at 1300 fps thru Fully Rifled Hastings Barrel with Open Sights on Browning A5 is easily a 100 yard gun!

On an earlier note: The Garrett 430 gr boolit at 1920 fps has a TKO of 54.7 whereas the 12 ga. 1 oz. slug at 1300 fps has a TKO of 59.2 so they are pretty close. But a Pump Shotgun is much faster to run than a Levergun. I can do 3 targets at 15 yards in 2.1 seconds every time, might get close with a lower powered Levergun but not my .45-70 1895 CB, with those Garrett Loads I'd be lucky to get off 2 shots in 5 seconds. Recoil would be pretty brutal. Recoil from the Shotgun is only slightly more than birdshot.

We should talk about this subject some more?

Randy

[Soundguy]

550 gr Brass Slug in Slugs r Us (now Blood Trail/Leon is Us!) Sabot at 1300 fps thru Fully Rifled Hastings Barrel with Open Sights on Browning A5 is easily a 100 yard gun!


On an earlier note: The Garrett 430 gr boolit at 1920 fps has a TKO of 54.7 whereas the 12 ga. 1 oz. slug at 1300 fps has a TKO of 59.2 so they are pretty close. But a Pump Shotgun is much faster to run than a Levergun. I can do 3 targets at 15 yards in 2.1 seconds every time, might get close with a lower powered Levergun but not my .45-70 1895 CB, with those Garrett Loads I'd be lucky to get off 2 shots in 5 seconds. Recoil would be pretty brutal. Recoil from the Shotgun is only slightly more than birdshot.

We should talk about this subject some more?

Randy

I don't pour brass..so.. I wouldnt be using them...

[oldcanadice]

So guys

O.K.; I used to shoot heavy guns with no problem. I actually thought they were fun. I am now 85 years old an have immense problems with recoil. A 12 gauge with heavy slugs in not an option -- I cannot shoot it and lose it after one shot. My though has been to go with a 44 mag Henry Steel with the Lee 320 over 20 grs of 295. Supposedly @ 1300-1400 fps. I figure that's about 3/4 of an old version of a 45/70. I can deal with it for repeat shots. You North-West folks with real experience (as opposed to a lot of surmising), you think that might be adequate to keep a griz out of a small camper?

[Tracy]

.45/70 Guide Gun, or my 20" barreled Mauser 98 in .35 Whelen, loaded with a 280 grain 358009 at about 2400 fps.
For a handgun, my Ruger Toklat .454 Casull.

[RJM52]

Thank you all for the amount of diverse answers to my simple question.... Really like those brass slugs above... Have a 1959 Auto-5 with a Hastings barrel that is really accurate with the old BRI sabot slugs...

This question was for a levergun that would have to be with you ALL the time because for whatever reason a handgun was not available.

My thinking is that since 99% of the handgun encounters with big bears end successfully and this levergun would have to be within arms reach all the time, I'd go with the pistol caliber carbine over the .444/.45-70/.405 size rifle. A 240+ grain hardcast in .41/.44/.45 at 1200+ fps is going to shoot through most anything encountered...

So here's the choice...you are on the edge of the wilderness in the last gun shop in the area...they have two rifles left on the rack..a Marlin 1895 stainless Trapper with 16.5" barrel in .45-70 and a Marlin 1894LTD stainless 16.5" in .44 Magnum. They have appropriate ammo for both....which do you take...or you can take neither and hope you don't run into the bear...

Bob

[HWooldridge]

Thank you all for the amount of diverse answers to my simple question.... Really like those brass slugs above... Have a 1959 Auto-5 with a Hastings barrel that is really accurate with the old BRI sabot slugs...

This question was for a levergun that would have to be with you ALL the time because for whatever reason a handgun was not available.

My thinking is that since 99% of the handgun encounters with big bears end successfully and this levergun would have to be within arms reach all the time, I'd go with the pistol caliber carbine over the .444/.45-70/.405 size rifle. A 240+ grain hardcast in .41/.44/.45 at 1200+ fps is going to shoot through most anything encountered...

So here's the choice...you are on the edge of the wilderness in the last gun shop in the area...they have two rifles left on the rack..a Marlin 1895 stainless Trapper with 16.5" barrel in .45-70 and a Marlin 1894LTD stainless 16.5" in .44 Magnum. They have appropriate ammo for both....which do you take...or you can take neither and hope you don't run into the bear...

Bob

I'd still take the 45-70. I don't mind the overkill on smaller game so long as I have enough gun for the big mean stuff with teeth...

[725]

My buddy was attacked by a sow Grizz with her two cubs nearby. After injuries that would have killed a lesser man, he managed to unholster his single action .41 mag and drop the bear as she came back to finish him off. It took three shots to drop her dead. As the bear moved it was as noisy as a shadow, and was on him before he could even unholster his revolver. If you can be comfortable with your reaction time and a rifle, go for it. The revolver was on his hip and ready to be deployed. Where would your rifle have been? Not knocking a rifle. I'd prefer to engage with one. It's just a matter of habit & discipline. For me, I think the correct answer is both.

[RJM52]

725...I 100% agree...but the whole point of this thread is YOU CAN'T LEGALLY have a handgun...and your only choice is a lever gun... BIG one or a medium one.

[Soundguy]

Always bigger.

[Kosh75287]

Are the Rossi M1892s in .454 Casull still available?
If one is limited to a rifle as a reactive bear gun, THAT may be the best choice. The platform is light, handy, and easy (tho in .454 Maybe not "FUN") to hit with. The .454 always struck me as essentially a short-chamber .444 Marlin, in terms of ballistics.
There is also the option to practice (LOTSA) with .45 Colt ammunition, until hitting with it is nearly instinctive. It would be important to use .45 Colt ammunition that is loaded "heavy" for practice (250 gr. RNFP @ 1250 f/s or faster), so that handling and recoil best approximate the .454 Casull loads intended for use in the "fire plug" mode.
I keep seeing recommendations for shotguns loaded with #000 buck. I would think that hit probability would be slightly higher than with a rifle, particularly at ranges beyond conversational. My concern is about the penetration capabilities of the shot. Perhaps the #000 buck would work on the smaller (and crankier, apparently) black bear. But I have my doubts about the shot penetrating the much heavier browns. I haven't ventilated any irate bruins, so perhaps someone who has, can chime in.
It SEEMS that I remember a website called "The Box of Truth" on which they displayed the penetration results of many common rounds, fired into open-ended boxes of either gelatin, water-saturated newsprint, sand, or other materials. Perhaps this rings a bell with others on here.