Do you cast the minie Lyman 580213

[Brokenbear]

I have a new to me Muskatoon Zouave shallow 3 groove 1/48 twist mfg fbo Navy Arms by Antonio Zolli w/ .5792 bore

The commonly available Lee and Lyman minie's mold are .575 dia (Lyman #575213) as cast and even with lube will drop to the powder charge via gravity in my .58 (would obviously be dangerous to hunt with making a snap shot with a 530gr minie 2/3rds of the way down the barrel) ..

I have in my possession some purchased bullets from 3 different reputable guys in the trade of making and selling BP minies and am disappointed in weight variances as well as roundness (no I am not on a name the bad stuff mission)

I can see where a wad might get you a pass on flyers caused by lack of roundness w/gas blow by being better controlled but weight variance of 5 to 40gr (from pin holes to air pockets) is a booger ..especially when it is hidden inside the bullet

Two of the three batches of bullets referred to above came lubed and that is ok even though I am set up to lube and size and one batch was no lube as cast ..and there was my first clue as it is hard to weigh lubed bullets ..until they get above the 5 gr short weight

i regress ..sorry any way in the as cast un-lubed group I pulled out the one's short of weight and start examining individual "boolits" and some look perfect but some had pin holes ..pin holes in the nose pin holes in the apex of the hollow of the bullet base ..some pin holes went a ways but were pin size in diameter ..some pin holes led to internal cavities

The other thing is this is my first minie gun to tune ..I may be fixating on a minor reason the accuracy is only 6"/50yrds ..maybe something this big (530gr bullet) and moving this slow (900 fps) (65gr FFF T7) would not be fazed by varying bullet weight and roundness but I would think so and working to eliminate the variables ..??

So I want to converse with someone who casts his own .580 minie and shorten my learning curve on this rifle before it beat me to death

Bear

[Hellgate]

I cast the 575213-OS that is 437gr and 577611 that casts 530 gr. I bought these molds a while back and they are heavy skirted. My Zoli Zouave likes the 575213-OS (Old Style) over 90grs of Goex FFFg. My Enfield Euroarms Musketoon likes the 577611 over 90grs Goex FFg. Both are cast of pure lead, unsized and lubed in the grooves with 50/50 beeswax/deer tallow. The last time I punched paper they gave 4-5" groups @ 100yds. I sight them in to hit 6" high @ 50 yds which puts them right on at 100. I have killed two deer with the Zuave and one elk with the Musketoon (see attached photo). All were years ago. My loads are way too heavy for target shooting and all 3 hits exited the game. A large mule deer doe was hit in the right front shoulder and the minie exited the left ham. Hardly any meat was ruined. The musketoon has a slip-on shotgun recoil pad.

As to casting. You need dead soft pure lead. Pig lead or plumbers 5 lb blocks are best. The pot needs to be HOT and it takes several castings to get the mold up to temperature including the base pin. I would remelt about the first 8 or 10 casts. A pinhole is a void. After casting I weigh each bullet after visual inspection culls about 20%. I typically get a bell shaped curve of weights. I toss the light ones or keep them for plinkers. The ones in the middle (i.e. a few grains either side of the most common weight are kept for hunting or match loads. I have never attended a musket match but it looks good to call something "match" quality. The heavy ones that are just a few grains heavy are the main plinkers (maybe another 20%). Looking at the math, a little over half are "keepers". The few minies I have purchased were pathetic and should have never been sent out. I admit that I am anal.

[Brokenbear]

Hey nice write up and it is exactly the kind of info I am looking for !!
I see I may be wrong having been in pursuit of a 580213 which i thought was the old original thin skirt oversized to be sized to the gun but if I understand you ...the "OS" designation makes it the thin skirt.. OR ..the OS added to the 575213 makes it a thin skirt
Do you by chance know for sure if the 580213 is thin or thick skirt? ..if thick was it ever issued with or as a 580213-OS
As to the 577311 ..with my bore .5792 ..I cannot imagine it delivering accuracy ..what tdo you think?


Thanks
Bear

[Hellgate]

The OS means "old Style" as in Civil War minie ball. The mold I have (OS) is thick skirted. The 575213 is thin skirted and should swell to engage the rifling with lighter charges of 35-60 grs powder. Most other minie molds are thin skirted and designed to swell and seal the bore at 60 grs or less powder. One of the failings of the 58 caliber muzzle loaders it the inconsistant bore diameters (compared to the 54s). I have a "St. Louis Hawken" in 58 that will let the 575213-OS and the 577611 slide right down the barrel onto the powder. I bought an "oversize" mold for that one but haven't worked up a load although 90gr FFg and the 577611 shoots well in it as long as you keep the muzzle up. They fit my shallow 3 grooved Zouave and Euroarms Musketoon just fine. If you have a sizer die to bump up your minie to .580 then you are in the money. Whether you have thin or thick skirts depends on what use you are putting the bullet: target/plinking or hunting. I don't know anything about the 580213 mold. I would guess that it is thin skirted.

[Brokenbear]

Thanks for even more great info ..
I am having the exact same problem of any minies I find will drop to the powder no ram rod required ..
I am very interested in the oversized mold you have acquired ..especially its as cast diameter, design, and bullet weight

Bear

[Hellgate]

First of all, I have the wrong mold number for the heavy skirted 530 gr minie: it is the 577611. I just measured the lyman "oversize" 575213 and it is .577" in the body and .580 on the lowest driving band. The 575213-OS is .575 full length. As I was rummaging around I found a completely unused RCBS Minie mould .580-416 Hodgdon (which is the newer design for North/South Skirmish Association target bullet for rifled muskets. Let me know if you are interested in it. I am assuming it throws a .580 diameter minie of 416 grains weight. See: https://www.rcbs.com/search?q=minie+...=&lang=default

[dave951]

Before you get bad advice, make contact with a bunch of N-SSA guys for help. We shoot minies in competition

Casting minies- Lee molds are marginal at best. The bottom pin plate is flimsy and easily damaged. Lyman molds work ok as do RCBS and Moose. I prefer Moose. When casting minies, run the pot hot, like 850F and pour fast. This will help greatly to avoid the QC issues you've mentioned. Another tip is to pour the lead on the "slope" of the sprue plate. As for commercial minies, I trust only ONE source- https://www.lodgewood.com/Bullets_c_7.html These guys deal in military muzzleloaders and the guy casting is a N-SSA member and he knows what it takes to make minies. The others like Track or Logcabin are great on round ball but the fact of the matter is, minies are a completely different world unto themselves.

Shooting minies- there is NO need for heavy powder charges unless your minies have thick skirts and using 3f will go a long way to reducing fouling.

Basics of minies-
Pure lead sized to .001 under actual measured bore size
moderate charges of real black powder, 3f preferred
quality caps- RWS preferred but Scheutzen ok
natural based lube like beeswax/tallow

but what would I know about shooting minies-

[Brokenbear]

Wow that north south bullet may very well be a great bullet ..but the picture sure makes it look buggly (butt ugly)
I will have to think on it ..
Tell me how you order a new oversized 575213 ..?? Or maybe me rent yours ..you know ..kinda break it in for you ..season it

Bear

[Brokenbear]

Dave I am in lockstep with you in every single thing you are saying
I'm at 65 grains, pure lead, RWS caps and everything I have tried both ball and bullet at 6/8/12" groups at 50 yards ..HOWEVER the nice gentleman I bought the gun from sent along 35 bullets that were made for the gun ..and 3" 50 yard groups with those bullets and they came from .....drum roll......Lodgewood of course ..all the other stuff I had collected up I have been using to tune in new sights on the gun (replaced ghost ring back to leaf)
Now all those krap bullets are going into my lead pot nest session ..
Tell me where to get a .580 minie ball thin skirt mold ...and ..
Sizing dies in .579/.578 that I can run thru a loading press or push type if desperate

Thanks
Bear

[dave951]

Tell me where to get a .580 minie ball thin skirt mold ...and ..
Sizing dies in .579/.578 that I can run thru a loading press or push type if desperate

Thanks
Bear

Moose Molds- https://moosemoulds.com/

Sizing dies (best made, no website)- Tom Crone (301) 473-5699

[Brokenbear]

Moose Molds- https://moosemoulds.com/

Sizing dies (best made, no website)- Tom Crone (301) 473-5699

Outstanding !! Thanks very much

Bear

[barnabus]

First of all, I have the wrong mold number for the heavy skirted 530 gr minie: it is the 577611. I just measured the lyman "oversize" 575213 and it is .577" in the body and .580 on the lowest driving band. The 575213-OS is .575 full length. As I was rummaging around I found a completely unused RCBS Minie mould .580-416 Hodgdon (which is the newer design for North/South Skirmish Association target bullet for rifled muskets. Let me know if you are interested in it. I am assuming it throws a .580 diameter minie of 416 grains weight. See: https://www.rcbs.com/search?q=minie+...=&lang=default

Hellgate..pls check your pm

[rmark]

Press mount and push through sizing dies are also available from

https://www.northeasttradeco.com/


The Moose Wilkinson bullet sized to bore size was one of the better bullets I used when I had a Zoli Zouave.

[dave951]

You should try the Moose Hogdon in 580. Here's a pic of what it can do at 50yd shot from my Birmingham Parker Hale P58 and my PH musketoon shoots almost as well at the same distance. There are 5 shots in that pic. Top was a cold bore flyer bottom is a 60cal hole with 4 shots into it. And yes, there were witnesses watching through scopes.

[Brokenbear]

DAVE ..I looked on the Moose Site and no Hodgdon bullet options shown but he might be selling that mold thru vendors who cater to the NSSA folks

RMARK.. thanks I will look at the NETC sizing die selection ..I looked at the Moose Wilkinson bullet ..Man that is a strange boolit ..I have for sure never found one of those metal detecting!