Titan ReloadingRepackboxRotoMetals2Reloading Everything
WidenersInline FabricationLee PrecisionLoad Data
MidSouth Shooters Supply
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 23

Thread: Case setback with Mouse farts in .308?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Posts
    312

    Case setback with Mouse farts in .308?

    I shot some 120 gr PB with 7-8 gr 700X in my Krag and thought about doing the same with my .308. BUT, I had heard that it can cause 'setback" on the cases, unless you drill the primer holes?

    Is this for real? While I do have a mess of .308 brass and could dedicate 50 rnds or so for this, I just hate to screw around with my brass.

  2. #2
    Moderator Emeritus


    georgerkahn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    South of the (Canada) border
    Posts
    3,051
    The more I read and older I get, the LESS I realize I know. That said, you did not indicate what firearm your ".308" might be?
    To my limited knowledge base, I've associated case setback with handguns primarily, and some rifles with tubular magazines. A good article you may wish to read on the subject appears at: https://www.recoilweb.com/bullet-set...rs-160844.html
    Re "drill primer holes", I have/do shoot wax bullets in .45 Colt, for which the flash hole of the primer pocket is enlarged as there is NO powder employed -- just the primer's pressure propels the wax projectile. I have all cases with enlarged flash holes coloured with Dy-kem fluid, to hopefully prevent an "oops" of getting any of these cases loaded with lead bullets.
    Re long guns, my "setback" fear (if any) is the recoil of firing will push the bullet in tubular magazine into the case (if not sufficiently crimped). The easy solution is, as writ, to make sure cases are crimped sufficiently to prevent this.
    Regardless -- and this is NOT "gospel" -- 100% from MY thinking on subject -- that rifle bullets generally pushed in -- "setback" a few hundredths of an inch probably is not too significant; on the other hand -- re pistols and revolver loadings -- as we all know, as case volume decreases pressures (often significantly!) increase. A situation to be avoided.
    Assuming your .308 is a long gun, and you sufficiently crimped -- as long as your bullets 100% of the time leave the barrel and hopefully hit your target at an acceptable to you group -- no worries.
    geo

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
    nicholst55's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Houston, TX Metro Area
    Posts
    3,606
    What I have read is that the case shoulders will eventually be set back on bottleneck cartridges when using gallery loads. How many shots it will take I do not know; it's been some time since I was studying up on the subject. Eventually, the cartridge headspace will become too short, and the cartridge may not fire due to excessive headspace - the firing pin will not be able to reach the primer. Unless. Unless the extractor holds the cartridge firmly enough to allow the FP to ignite the primer. I would expect such brass to separate quickly (immediately?) if ever subjected to full power loads, so mark it plainly, as georgekahn suggests.
    Service members, veterans and those concerned about their mental health can call the Veterans Crisis Line to speak to trained professionals. To talk to someone, call 1-800-273-8255 and Press 1, send a text message to 838255 or chat at VeteransCrisisLine.net/Chat.

    If you or someone you know might be at risk of suicide, there is help. Call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255, text a crisis counselor at 741741 or visit suicidepreventionlifeline.org.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Franklin, TN
    Posts
    1,629
    It will happen on the first reduced firing. I think, but cannot prove, the ejector springs on Remington 700 and such actions is part of the issue. I need to pursue that further. Start with cases that have been formed to your chamber with full pressure loads, drill the flash holes, then shoot your reduced pressure loads as many times as you wish. I have gone to Starline 308 match brass with the small primers for the purpose of reduced 308 loads. They do not suffer the shoulder setback that large primer cases do.
    Good Luck,
    Rick

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Brushy Mountains of NC
    Posts
    1,333
    I have it happen with a M48 Mauser in 8mm in just a couple shots. I don't understand the whole process but drilled out cases seem to be the answer. I don't remember the size bit used. Rimmed cases like your Krag solve the problem.

    I believe Larry Gibson is familiar with this and has posted on it. He will have more info.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Franklin, TN
    Posts
    1,629
    Quote Originally Posted by beemer View Post
    I have it happen with a M48 Mauser in 8mm in just a couple shots. I don't understand the whole process but drilled out cases seem to be the answer. I don't remember the size bit used. Rimmed cases like your Krag solve the problem.

    I believe Larry Gibson is familiar with this and has posted on it. He will have more info.
    You are correct, rimmed cases don't suffer the malady. This is why the 30-30 among others are so cast friendly. The 308 and '06 are the worst offenders I have found but I shoot them quite a bit.
    Larry is very familiar. Search for his postings on the subject. I won't quote a number drill size from my old memory but Larry Gibson, or Outpost as I remember can.
    Good Luck,
    Rick

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,303
    Drilled Flash Hole High Pressure Test; 308W

    In the past I have posted this explanation of why I drill out flash holes for use with low end reduced loads.

    I shoot many thousands of squib loads in various calibers but mostly in .30s. Many of these are rimless cartridges; 30-06, .308, .308 CBC, 7.65, 7.62x39 etc. The squib loads I shoot most often is a Lee 314-90-SWC-TL over 2.7 to 3.2 gr of Bullseye depending on the cartridge. Velocity is around 800 – 875 fps. I found a long time ago the shoulders do in fact get set back with light loads such as those. With many cast loads that use normal weight bullets in the 1600 to 2000 fps range there was little setback. It basically is a matter of the psi the load generates. It takes roughly 7,000 psi (depends on thickness and hardness of the brass along with how much the case needs to reach the chamber walls.

    Measurements of shoulder set back or increase are easily taken with a Stoney Point tool. There have been basically the two theories regarding the cause; the firing pin blow theory and the primer theory. I ran the same tests with a fire formed case and inert primers; headspace was not changed. I then used the same fire formed case with live primers. In as little as two firings there was a measurable decrease in headspace. After five live primers the fired primer was noticeably backed out after firing. NOTE: this increase in headspace was with case taking LR primers. I never experience the problem with the .222 Rem or the 5.56 NATO.

    Using #d drills I gradually increased the flash hole diameter with a progressively larger drill. Using a different fire formed case with each larger drill and firing 5 primers I then measured the headspace before firing and after. As the size of the flash hole increased the headspace decrease lessoned. With a # 29 drill I no longer got any decrease in headspace. I dedicated five .308 cases and five 30-06 cases that were well fire formed to their respective rifles chambers and drilled the flash holes with the #29 drill. Over the next few days I fired 50 shots with each case. There was an indoor 50” range where I was stationed so it wasn’t all that bad. After the 50 firings there was negligible change in headspace with any of the five cases of each cartridge. The results of my test firmly demonstrated to me that it was the force of the primer explosion that drove the case forward and set back the shoulder. The squib load does not have the pressure to expand the case out to fit the chamber. By drilling out the flash hole the force of the explosion mostly went directly into the case as there is little rim left to contain it. Two other side benefits that were unforeseen; the extreme spread and standard deviations of the velocity readings improved and the case position sensitivity of the small charge was greatly reduced.

    As a result of the above tests I dedicated fire formed cases for squib loads for each rifle in rimless cases and drill out the flash holes. I have fired them many, many times now with no further change in headspace. Besides the squib load mentioned I also use 311631 (# may be wrong but it’s the 118 gr GC 32-20 bullet) with Unique in the above cartridges loaded to 1400 fps or so for a little more powerful small game load. The flash hole drilled cases work just fine for those. I now use the flash ole drilled cases for all my rimless cartridges with squib and really light loads.

    Larry Gibson


    Further pressure testing in the .308W the last few years indicated that loads with a psi above 12,000 will obdurate sufficiently to prevent the primer from driving the case forward thus setting the shoulder back.”

    Since then seems like every time the subject comes up we get admonitions not to do so because it is very “dangerous” should the cases with such drilled out flash holes be used for a “regular” load. Having Previously tested such cases with “regular cast bullets loads creating 28 – 30,000 psi (measured via an Oehler M43 PBL) I have endeavored to ascertain the danger of loading such to the psi of “regular” loads at 55,000 +/- psi.

    I had enough cases LC 92 7.62 NATO (308W) cases I was going drill out the flash holes to run a series of 10 tests using five 9 shot tests and five 8 shot tests. I would run a test with the flash holes as they were (.061”) and then increase them in size incrementally to .140”. That is the maximum size to enlarge the flash hole while still retaining enough of a shelf for the primer anvil legs to rest on. I used numbered (#) drills alternately from #44 up through #28 to enlarge the flash holes.

    Here we see the cases with the flash holes drilled from “as issued” on the left to #28 drilled on the right;

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	0113191838~2.jpg 
Views:	43 
Size:	98.0 KB 
ID:	306283

    The cases were FL sized in a RCBS X-die the loaded with pull down M80 bullets (147 gr FMJBT) over 43 gr of IMR 4895 with WLR primers. The loads were tested on 2/25/2019 in my test rifle with a 24” barrel. The Oehler M43 PBL was used to measure velocity, pressure, etc. I could see no difference in the appearance of the primers after firing. Have a look for yourself;

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	0226191016.jpg 
Views:	50 
Size:	114.6 KB 
ID:	306284

    Here is a compilation of all the data measured during the test. I’ll be darned if I can see any meaningful difference between the first load with “regular” .061” flash holes and the last test with .140”.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Data compilation.jpg 
Views:	50 
Size:	37.1 KB 
ID:	306285

    Throughout the test the sky did not fall, Humpty did not fall off the wall, the chicken made it across the road and no collusion between Trump and the Russians was found………and I’m still alive and the rifle did not blow up……… It appears, based on actual test results, using cases with drilled out flash holes might not be as “dangerous” as some thought………

    Completed the 2nd test using 168 MKs over 41.5 gr IMR 4895 yesterday. Shot four 9 shot test groups using the cases with; flash holes as issued, then three other groups with flash holes drilled with #40 drill (.096"), #34 (.111") and #28 (.140"). The results;

    With as issued flash holes: 2653 fps SD 16 fps/ES 53 fps; 56,000 psi SD 1,600/ES 4,800; group 1.69"

    With #40 drill (.096") drill: 2646 fps SD 9 fps/ES 31 fps; 54,900 psi SD 1,300/ES 4,200; group 1.45"

    With #34 drill (.111") drill: 2646 fps SD 19 fps/ES 61 fps; 54,700 psi SD 1,800/ES 6,000; group 1.37"

    With #28 drill (.140) drill: 2641 fps SD 12 fps/ES 43 fps; 54,000 psi SD 1,100/ES 3,000; group .945"

    The first 2 shots (foulers) were slightly out of the group and gave the 2 highest FPS and psi. That raised the averages above the others slightly. The test rifle normally shoots 10 shots into an average of 1.2 - 1.4".

    All the data are once again within the normal test to test variation of the same load. Nothing indicates any "danger" from using cases with drilled flash holes, even with normal high pressure loads with jacketed bullets.

    Again, the benefit of using such cases (those with LR primers) is with gallery type loads (cat's sneeze, mouse fart, squib, etc.) that do not generate sufficient psi to obturate the case. Using such cases in push feed actions, especially those with a plunger ejector, w/o drilling the flash holes can lead to shortened case headspace which then leads to failure to fire and/or failure to extract. Drilling the flash holes out alleviates that problem with these type loads.

    "I never was concerned about increased pressure of the powder charge from larger flash holes. I do have a mild concern about increased pressure in the primer itself increasing the chance of a blanked or pierced primer."

    That is one of the main concerns that is always expressed. If there was greater pressure in the primer with a drilled out flash hole than with a standard flash hole don't you think it would manifest itself in a greater flattening of the primer? Yet we don't see that at all in either test. The flatness of the fired primers regardless of flash hole size is identical. Thus far I have fired 136 cartridges at 56 t0 57,000 psi (measured) w/o a single indication of any greater primer flattening with drilled flash holes vs "standard" flash holes. There was absolutely no indication there was in increase in pressure inside the primer cups.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	0226191016.jpg 
Views:	50 
Size:	114.6 KB 
ID:	306284

    A further argument, if not the main argument, against the use of drilled out flash hole cases for gallery loads is that if you inadvertently use them with a standard load it could be dangerous. Thus, if you have a standard load that doesn't pierce or blow the primer and inadvertently use a case with drilled flash holes it appears there really isn't any concern. I am not suggesting whatsoever that full power loads be developed and used with cases having drilled out flash holes……I do not do that. The point of this test was to determine if there is a danger from increased pressure if using a case with a drilled out flash hole. From the testing of drilled out flash holes in the .308W with full power loads no indication of any danger was observed.

    What I am suggesting is the use of such cases with drilled out flash holes should be used with gallery or other low level cast bullet loads. The purpose of drilling out flash holes for use with gallery or other low level loads is to negate the headspace of the case from shortening with repeated firing from the primer pressure in push feed actions. It also proven to be very useful in reducing to a large degree the powder position sensitivity of such reduced "squib", "mouse fart" or "cat's sneeze loads". That is all.

    Note; the problem of case shoulder set back only becomes a real issue with push feed actions, particularly those with a plunger ejector in the bolt face. With a CRF action the extractor will hold the rim back allowing the shoulder to setback no further. The CRF action with a rimless case acts similar to a rimmed case with the case "heaspacing" on the extractor. That's what FL sized cases in CRF actions, especially milsurps do anyway most of the time.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,303
    A further test of drilled out flash holes in the 44 magnum and 45 Colt cartridges;

    Drilled Flash Hole Test; 44 Magnum and 45 Colt

    Completed the test yesterday 29 April, 2019. Test firearm was a Contender with a 8.4” barrel in 44 Magnum and a 10” barrel in 45 Colt. A 2.5X scope is on the Contender. All measured data except group size (ctc widest shots) was obtained via the Oehler M43 PBL. I had prepared 10 cases, as previously posted, for each test string; 10 with standard flash holes and 10 with the flash holes drilled out with a #28 drill. Winchester WLPs were used in all cases for both cartridges.

    Testing was conducted from the bench with a Hoppe’s Pistol Rest with the target at 50 yards.
    Temperature was 80 degrees.
    Humidity was 30%
    Barometric Pressure was 29.63

    44 Magnum;
    Bullet was a 429360 cast of COWW +2% tin, AC’d and aged 10+ days before sizing .430 and lubed with BAC.
    Cases were Remington R-Ps sized and loaded in RCBS dies.
    Powder charge; 22 gr of Alliant 2400
    OAL; 1.638

    With Standard flash holes;
    Velocity; 1622 fps (muzzle)
    SD/ES; 13/41 fps
    Pressure; 35,800 psi(M43)
    Pressure SD/ES; 500/1,700 psi
    Group; 3.1”

    With flash holes drilled;
    Velocity; 1599 fps (muzzle)
    SD/ES; 17/47 fps
    Pressure; 34,500 psi(M43)
    Pressure SD/ES; 1,400/3.900 psi
    Group; 3.2”

    45 Colt:
    Bullet was a 452-230-TC cast of COWW +2% tin, AC’d and aged 10+ days before sizing .454 and lubed with BAC.
    Cases were CBC 45 Colt sized in RCBS steel FL sizer and loaded in Hornady dies.
    Powder charge; 7.3 gr 700X
    OAL; 1.598”

    With Standard flash holes;
    Velocity; 1060 fps (muzzle)
    SD/ES; 7/23 fps
    Pressure; 16,300 psi(M43)
    Pressure SD/ES; 400/1,500 psi
    Group; 2.9”

    With flash holes drilled;
    Velocity; 1059 fps (muzzle)
    SD/ES; 4/15 fps
    Pressure; 16,000 psi(M43)
    Pressure SD/ES; 400/1,100 psi
    Group; 3.15”

    From the measured data we see there is essentially no difference. Again the sky did not fall, California did not slide off into the Pacific and still no Trump collusion with Russians……

    Here’s the fired primers…..no difference in “flattening”…….

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	44&45 FH drlld after firing.jpg 
Views:	40 
Size:	80.5 KB 
ID:	306286
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Las Cruces, NM
    Posts
    4,535
    After reading about Larry's results a while ago I went out and drilled all my .308 brass. I can't confirm or deny accuracy change with jacketed but my loads with cast improved a bit, especially the es and sd. And I still cannot see any difference in primer condition either. Even max loads seem just fine. And, yes, I have used some Federal match primers (supposedly the 'soft' ones) without any ill effects.

    The other benefit is the std primers now seem to get the same results as the match primers.

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Posts
    312
    Thanks Larry. You are one of the reasons I love Cast Boolets forum.
    I have some LC Match brass I've weight sorted to +/-1 grain that has been fired lots of times in my Ruger 77 push feed. I'll make them my Low pressure brass lot by drilling with a #28/29 drill. I'd hate to screw up my Ruger by doing it wrong.

    Years ago I bought a bubba'd 1917 Eddystone for $18 that was showing a lot of primer errosion on the bolt face so I took it to a smith for a headspace check and Yep it was way out of spec. Murphy set it back to almost too tight for $25 and now it is one fine shooting rifle.

    In my 22" Krag the load was shooting ~1,400 fps so about 32-20 velocity and pretty good accuracy at 50 yds. I just reloaded 50 rnds of it to try at 100 yards. I expect in my 20" Ruger to get about the same. Nice recoil for trigger control practice.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Brushy Mountains of NC
    Posts
    1,333
    Larry, you stated you saw improved SD's and an improvement in powder position sensitivity in cases with drilled out flash holes. I use 2400 in a 45-70 and notice a fluff of dacron makes the load more consistent. I also use loads with Unique. Do you think it would be of any benefit to try a drilled flash hole ?

    Thanks for reposting
    Dave

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Northern Michigan
    Posts
    8,899
    Enjoy reading Larry's no BS posts.
    Don Verna


  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,303
    Quote Originally Posted by beemer View Post
    Larry, you stated you saw improved SD's and an improvement in powder position sensitivity in cases with drilled out flash holes. I use 2400 in a 45-70 and notice a fluff of dacron makes the load more consistent. I also use loads with Unique. Do you think it would be of any benefit to try a drilled flash hole ?

    Thanks for reposting
    Dave
    With reduced and cat's sneeze loads I try to balance the burning rate of the powder used to the bullet weight for the caliber/cartridge used and the velocity level wanted. Ease of powder ignition and position sensitivity are also considerations.

    In the 45-70 at trapdoor level the 400 gr +/- a tad cast bullet is the nominal bullet weight at 1200 - 1400 fps. When shooting a cast bullet of 300 to 350 gr at 1200+ fps I rely on Unique with no filler or wad. For velocity under that with cast bullets or RBs I usually use Bullseye or Red Dot. My standard low end load is the Rapine 460-250 (270 gr) over 8 gr Bullseye, no filler or wad. My cat's sneeze load and small game load is the Rapine 210 gr 460-210 over 6 gr Bullseye, no filler or wad. With bullets of 385 or heavier I for loads under 1200 fps I most often Use Unique w/o filler or wad, the TD carbine 45-55 equivalent load with the lee 405 HB bullet being a good example.

    I use a dacron filler [could be called a 'fluff" if it fills the air space between powder and bullet] when loads of 1200 - 1500 fps are used with 400 - 500 gr bullets when using powders in the burning range of 2400, 4227, 4198, 4744, 3031 and 4895. I have drilled the flash holes of my 45-70 cases for those loads. I haven't really run a test on the use of the filler with and without drilled flash holes. Along with better ES and SDs I can say I get less "unburned powder" residue in my TDs with the drilled flash hole cases.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Brushy Mountains of NC
    Posts
    1,333
    Larry, thanks for your insight. I have a few cases that I will drill the flash holes and try a few loads.

    My rifle is a Marlin 1895ss with Williams FP sights a Merit aperture and a Lyman 17a front. I only use TD loads, a lot of fun to shoot.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master elmacgyver0's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    1,970
    Larry Gibson, all I can say is WOW, all the work you put into this is amazing.

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Oct 2022
    Location
    Fairbanks, Alaska
    Posts
    107
    I second the “wow” Larry. I am just starting down the cat sneeze road with .308 Win, and your posts really illuminate the route.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    The Willamette Valley, in Oregon
    Posts
    690
    After reading Sharpe's Complete Guide to Handloading (1936), but before before reading Larry's posts on this subject ( :thumbsup: ), I ran a test with a series of loads that were formulated to just barely fail to cycle my M1 Garand.

    I wanted to see how low I could make a Garand-functional handload.

    The almost-functional loads yielded a calculated Garand port pressure of 5300 psi (per QuickLoad)
    The minimum-functional loads for my particular Garand (SA 3-65 rebuild w/ 65-series oprod) calculated to 5800 psi at the gas port.
    For reference, the minimum pressure spec for the Garand is 6000 psi at the gas port, so I figure I'm in the ballpark.

    Even opening up the flash holes all the way to 1/8" (in 1/64" increments), made no functional improvement on the borderline loads, so I'm pretty convinced there was no real pressure increase even with such a generous hole.
    Last edited by Kestrel4k; 01-05-2023 at 09:27 PM.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    SRC Northwest FL
    Posts
    670
    Quote Originally Posted by Chena View Post
    I second the “wow” Larry. I am just starting down the cat sneeze road with .308 Win, and your posts really illuminate the route.
    I will add my wows also.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master 243winxb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,837

    Shoulder set back with Youth/ reduced loads.

    223 shoulder set back measured at .006" when the defective primer didn't fire. Rifle Savage Axis. Brass NOT annealed.

    More testing showed it happened every time using a dead primer. A 2nd strike set the shoulder back even more.

    2 things have an effect. Firing pin spring weight & type of extractor. The Savage extractor allows 223 brass to move forward, pushing the shoulder back, more head clearance.

    30-06 using Hodgdon Youth Loads, IMR 4895 , showed shoulder setback. More case head clearance, slop in chamber. This brass is only used for reduced loads.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Las Cruces, NM
    Posts
    4,535
    So just the force of the firing pin on the case was enough to set back the shoulder?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check