Calculating Permanent Cavity Wound Mass from Fackler Wound Profiles

[M-Tecs]

Momentum certainly exists. It's equal to mass times velocity. And it's certainly not unimportant. It's just that it doesn't tell us much about the likely effectiveness of ammunition. Penetration and permanent cavity wound mass provide more useful information.
.

Very much so. Today I loaded some .458 500 grain round nose FMJ's subsonic's for a friend. They are at a book velocity of 1,000 fps. I compared the nose shape to some 452" 230 gain round nose FMJ's and they are almost identical. I have some 230's loaded to an actual velocity of 1,000 fps. Both will give a pass thru in most 2 legged SD situations with the wound channel and energy transfer being very similar except of a .006" diameter difference and the 500 grain not slowing down as much. The 500 grain has more than double the KE's and much greater penetration yet the wound channel and stopping power will be about equal for two legged targets. For something like a brown bear the greater penetration is highly beneficial.

[M-Tecs]

Mass has weight. Several on here, one supposedly highly educated said it couldn't be weighed.
.

Your tag line is the only one making that claim???

We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

ROFLMAO

[44MAG#1]

Your tag line is the only one making that claim???

We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

ROFLMAO

Making what claim?????? Please explain to me what claim I am making?

[pettypace]

Honestly, I think this wound mass concept is a largely dry well.

Fackler wouldn't agree! Did you read his "Wound Profiles" article?

[44MAG#1]

I think Fackler and MacPherson are great.
Their testing prove beyond a doubt that they were the best and most knowledgeable of any.

[pettypace]

Honestly, I think this wound mass concept is a largely dry well. If we accept that a certain amount of penetration is necessary, and that temporary cavity is meaningless at handgun impact speeds, we find ourselves looking at nothing but narrow wound paths of about 1-2 centimeters in diameter. Not much to choose, really. At some point you get small enough that the "drain" for letting blood out and air in will be unacceptably slow at the process, but between about .30 and .45, it's all much the same.

I don't buy that "it's all much the same."

For example, a buddy of mine, a relatively new shooter, recently bought an M1 carbine intended for civilian self defense. With ball ammunition, the M1 carbine never earned much of a reputation for effectiveness. Even if it "tumbles" I doubt a 110 grain FMJ bullet at 2000 f/s would produce much over 15 grams of effective wound mass.

But loaded with a good expanding bullet, Fackler's wound profile below shows a wound mass of about 60 grams. You can think about that as four times the amount of tissue damaged or as four times the probability of hitting something "vital." Either way, a 4:1 ratio shouldn't be dismissed as "all much the same."

[44MAG#1]

If we use a decent caliber handgun with an expanding bullet and we place that bullet with precision we should be okay. That is what I take away from these studies. Most don't stuff a rifle or shotgun in their pants to go to Walmart. I have a 12 gauge pump that I keep at home but it isn't loaded.
Would a load of number 4 buckshot do for home defense?

[pettypace]

Would a load of number 4 buckshot do for home defense?

Here's Dr. Fackler's wound profile for #4 buckshot:

[44MAG#1]

Here's Dr. Fackler's wound profile for #4 buckshot:

Maybe I ought to load up that baby.
Looks better than my 38 Special pocket revolver.

[pettypace]

Maybe I ought to load up that baby.
Looks better than my 38 Special pocket revolver.

I'd go with 00 buck for the extra penetration.

[44MAG#1]

I'd go with 000 buck for the extra penetration.

I would say that extra 2 inches with all that momentum would make a great difference. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Good Cheer]

Here's Dr. Fackler's wound profile for #4 buckshot:

Grampa said to use #4's. Maybe that's one of things he learned in France.

[44MAG#1]

Grampa said to use #4's. Maybe that's one of things he learned in France.

But we all know it is where they are hit that really matters.
WDM Bell used a 7X57 on Elephant with good success.
Placement versus Displacement.

[MT Gianni]

I have personal knowledge that a sheep, facing you head up, hit in the head with 45 ball from a 5" 1911 with give said animal a headache as it glances off into parts unknown. It will not automatically break it's back, cause organs to cease functioning or other trauma. The sheeps' legs will still work. Hit square instead of a glancing blow it will usually exit through the throat area causing a quick death. No I was not the shooter just the observer.

[44MAG#1]

I have personal knowledge that a sheep, facing you head up, hit in the head with 45 ball from a 5" 1911 with give said animal a headache as it glances off into parts unknown. It will not automatically break it's back, cause organs to cease functioning or other trauma. The sheeps' legs will still work. Hit square instead of a glancing blow it will usually exit through the throat area causing a quick death. No I was not the shooter just the observer.

I believe Fackler and McPherson were dealing with human wounds.
I may be mistaken. But think there is a slight chance I may be right.

[M-Tecs]

I have personal knowledge that a sheep, facing you head up, hit in the head with 45 ball from a 5" 1911 with give said animal a headache as it glances off into parts unknown. It will not automatically break it's back, cause organs to cease functioning or other trauma. The sheeps' legs will still work. Hit square instead of a glancing blow it will usually exit through the throat area causing a quick death. No I was not the shooter just the observer.

A friend of mine was shot at point blank range with a 9mm in Iraq just at the point of the hair line. The bullet skidded on the skull till it hit the helmet. The bullet followed the contour of the helmet until it lodged in the top of his vest on his back. The guy that shot him didn't fare as well.

I've never slaughtered sheep but I got the job as shooter for slaughtering hogs and cattle at about 10 years old after others had to many misses. Hogs and heifers/steers got a 22 LR to the brain. For baloney bulls we used a 22 Mag. I never missed the spot but I have witnessed numerous others miss.

Too your point I purchased a Colt Gold Cup at 14 years old in 1974 with hay hauling and fur money. It didn't take me very long shooting jack rabbits with 45 GI ball to learn that the claims of blowing people of their feet or " automatically break it's back, cause organs to cease functioning or other trauma" was not the reality some claim.

[44MAG#1]

Bullet placement is key. We have learned that handguns lack the smash to effect large wound mass numbers.
So we have to compensate somewhere.

[M-Tecs]

Bullet placement and energy transfer is the key unless it's a central nervous system hit. Lot of jack rabbits would do a 150 to 200 yard dash with a double lung from 45 ACP ball yet a 22LR hollow point would anchor them. The 200 grain Speer flying ashtray was outstanding on jack rabbits.

I lost way too many coyotes using 90 grain FMJ's at 2,400 FPS out of a .243 Win with double lung hits. Same for double lung deer when I used bullets designed for much heavier game. I put three 175 grain Bitterroots through both lungs on a medium sized mule deer. He made it 1 1/2 section before he got to the section line fence and could not cross. A fourth one through the neck did the trick. A section is 1 mile square. I made the same mistake with a 338 Win Mag and a 375 H&H mag with single double lung hits. Recovery was a challenge and both required a second shot. Switching to 210 grain partians in the 338 turned it into the hammer to Thor. Same for lighter jacketes bullets in the 375 H&H.

None of the deer or Antelope I've taken with 223, 22-250 or 220 Swift made it more than 30 feet with a lung shot using 55 grain softpoint.

[44MAG#1]

Bullet placement and energy transfer is the key unless it's a central nervous system hit. Lot of jack rabbits would do a 150 to 200 yard dash with a double lung from 45 ACP ball yet a 22LR hollow point would anchor them. The 200 grain Speer flying ashtray was outstanding on jack rabbits.

I lost way too many coyotes using 90 grain FMJ's at 2,400 FPS out of a .243 Win with double lung hits. Same for double lung deer when I used bullets designed for much heavier game. I put three 175 grain Bitterroots through both lungs on a medium sized mule deer. He made it 1 1/2 section before he got to the section line fence and could not cross. A fourth one through the neck did the trick. A section is 1 mile square. I made the same mistake with a 338 Win Mag and a 375 H&H mag with single double lung hits. Recovery was a challenge and both required a second shot. Switching to 210 grain partians in the 338 turned it into the hammer to Thor. Same for lighter jacketes bullets in the 375 H&H.

None of the deer or Antelope I've taken with 223, 22-250 or 220 Swift made it more than 30 feet with a lung shot using 55 grain softpoint.

Again this thread is pertaining to handguns mostly on human wounding based on 15 inches of penetration.

[M-Tecs]

Again this thread is pertaining to handguns mostly on human wounding based on 15 inches of penetration.

Per the OP the thread is about:

How, for example, does .45 hardball compare to the classic .38 Special FBI load? Or to a .22 LR hollow point? Or to a 12 gauge slug? Or to a target wadcutter from a .38 snubby? Or to a 30-40 Krag with ball ammo?

NOTE: Fackler's wound profiles are available here: https://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/2001-Vol5No2.pdf

It is also about what any poster wants to post as long as it's within the forum rules.