If your only gun for bear defense on a camping trip was a 10mm pistol what load would you carry, or would you just not go? I don't want to get into a caliber discussion as it wouldn't be my first choice but the 10mm is the only thing available so I need a load suggestion for that. Thanks!
Your choice is to go enjoy yourself on the slim chance of encountering a bear with a 10mm ( which I wouldn't have an issue with personally u less talking grizzly/polar bears) or stay home and do nothing. I don't see the choice here but any decent self defense load should work. I have never shot a bear, just putting that out there.
180 grn to 200 grn solids, fairly warm, as long as they are safe & accurate.
200 or 220gr Hard cast RNFP (LBT) at about 1200fps. Buffalo bore and Double Tap offer these loads as well as others.
Before our wrists and elbows went south (too much abuse) we carried .44 mags in big bear country. Fortunately never had to shoot one. As we got older we found the 10mm auto in a 1911 to be more efficient in our hands. More shots on target faster than with our beloved .44s. The 10mm aint a magnum but if you shoot carefully it will do. YMMV.
BTW, if I knew I'd run into a big bear I'd stay home but the mere possibility of it happening has never stopped me from venturing out in bear country.
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I had this discussion with an outdoorsman in Livingston, MT in January. He was an EMT and regularly hikes, skis, hunts and such between Livingston and Yellowstone. His carry gun was a Glock 10mm with hard cast 220 gr. "bear loads". So far he hasn't had to shoot a Grizzly but has encountered 3 - all which he was able to back away from. All of the local sporting goods stores offered bear loads in 10mm and all had hard cast, FP loads for that purpose. Buffalo Bore and Underwood were prevalent brands.
Never had an encounter with a grizzly or polar bear and I acknowledge they are another level of bear, but I've killed several black bears and they are very easy to kill. I would be very comfortable with a 10 and factory ammo. If I were to use reloads, I'd go no lighter than 180 grains or higher than around 200. Push them as fast as you are accurate with.
Had bears around the house for many years. Have them denning on the property for winter. Have had mom bring the kids through the yard, while sitting on the steps, no problem. If a 10mm is all you got? Learn to shoot it accurately and under Derus, or travel with dog/dogs. As long as you can run faster than the people you are with ? you will be fine?
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To focus on the question that was asked, my woods carry load here in Alaska with my 10mm Springfield XDM is a 200 gr. coated RNFP from Montana Bullets over 8 gr. of Longshot. Please note that is hotter than some published data. Use at your own risk.
You really need to know what your gun can handle though. Guns with less chamber support aren't going to be able to handle the hotter loads other guns with good chamber support are able to handle.
I have been a 10mm Auto aficionado for quite a while. The munition which comes to my mind is "Black Widow" -- a 140 grain bullet which, imho, would have the best defense potential with bear. You can Google it to get particulars, and here's a photo.Originally Posted by kend
I had a S&W Model 1006 as well as a Colt Delta Elite -- both in 10mm Auto -- and it functioned fine in both. NOT a calibre "discussion" -- more just this round -- the first time I fired it -- two handed -- the barrel ended up pointing 12 o'clock high: straight up. Hence a suggestion if you should procure some, (as I do) have a couple of stout regular rounds in the magazine ahead of these... If the first two rounds do not stop the bear -- "three" may very well be "the charm"
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BEST!
geo
There's a youtube channel called "Scary Bear Attacks" The episode I watched yesterday specifically had an event focused on a guy doing a 2 magazine ( 16 rounds ) Heavy Solids from a Glock 10MM ammo dump on a attacking Griz. Broke him down enough finally at close to point blank range to put the final 2 rounds in his brain from the side. It sounds like they were all lucky to be alive. Other hand guns were firing also but had no effect. Everybody agreed they were going to get a bigger gun next time. This was a professional guide, supposed expert with the Glock. Check it out, you might gain some insight.
PS that was Buffalo Bore ammo specifically designed for this purpose.
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It's probably under the 37,500 psi max for 10mm and just over the sound barrier, around 1170 fps. I just bought some Longshot for 9mm and was curious. I looked it up and that's Hodgdon's top load for 10mm. About 608 ftlbs of muzzle energy. Nothing in Hodgdon's data for 200g bullets was over 1,172 fps. Go up .029" where the max psi is 36,000, max load for a 260g boolit in a 4" revolver will put it out about 1400 fps and 1131 ftlbs of muzzle energy.
I'm going to recommend Longshot for those brave souls with 10mm and stick with my 44s around bears.
Mal
Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.
Something from Buffalo Bore or Underwood, I'd guess. I think I'd want a solid, not a JSP or JHP, since it'd have to penetrate lotsa bear tissue on the way to the brain.
Alliant lists 11.0/Blue Dot/180 gr. Speer GDHP as giving 1295 f/s from a 5" barrel (probably in a universal receiver). I would EXPECT that you might get 1300+ with a lead cast or PC'd SOLID POINT projectile (LRN or RNFP?) of similar weight and geometry.
Ordinarily, I might suggest a heavier projectile than 180 gr., but this load seems to offer the best balance between "payload" and penetration. Beyond this, it might be instructive to shoot some factory loads into a uniform medium (water-soaked newsprint, water-filled gallon milk jugs aligned in a row) and see which of them penetrates deepest.
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Winchester's WSF has velocity potential in pistol cartridges like 9mm 10mm 45 and 40sw. I'm getting an honest 1100 fps with Lyman 40143's in a 40sw.
Oh great, another thread that makes me spend money.
Not this.
You need a heavy solid to penetrate. A self defense load is generally a jhp with a light jacket and soft core that opens rapidly and limits penetration.
On a recent pig hunt my brother in law shot a couple of pigs with his 40 and jhp carry loads, they barely penetrated under the hide.
Never did get set up on a keeper bear
Wife and I hunted the Susitna Valley
just as the snow melted in May before the leaves came out.
Seriously, bears are afraid of my Swede, they won't get within 200 yards.
She wants their hide.
I took the work-required (UAF paid for) "Bear Safety Training"
I am glad to know the bears are safe.
AF&G has excellent "Hunter Safety Training" for the Cheechakos.
(I never did graduate to Sourdough)
Taught us that hunters are never safe.
My takeaway was there are two kinds of bears
A bear will ignore and avoid you. Any boolit well placed, DRT.
Or
A bear full of adrenaline won't die until you do.
Our plan was to eat lunch on a hill
wait for a three year old bear to sneak up on us.
(perfect rug, perfect teeth and claws)
Who is hunting whom?
They would circle behind cover, 200-300 yards away.
Wife is good for 200 yards, but I don't want to give a bear a 200 yard head start in brush.
That's how we spent our vacations in the hot May sun, trying to feed the bears.
April-May the moose and caribou are calving, gut piles and bears are everywhere.
Bear spray: get the giant economy size with the red paint in it.
Looks like and is as heavy as a small fire extinguisher.
Little cans of mace are for muggers, not bears...
Bear spray because you must not shoot a sow with cubs,
and she is a dangerous bear, she thinks you are lunch for the cubs.
Alaska shows you where you are on the food chain.
10mm or 12 gauge? Lemme think about that. Done. Slugs.
Pistol grip 16" 870.
...another vote for the 200 grain hardcast FP...mine are running 1210-1260 depending on the barrel length/gun.
Good to know. Thanks.
A while back I was reading one of the many (many) threads on using a 10mm pistol loaded with a 180-200 gr. cast bullet @ ~1200 fps for bear defense. It occurred to me that such a load is slightly less powerful than my ancient '73 Winchester 38 WCF and its black powder load of a 192 gr. cast FN (RCBS 40-180-FN) @ well over 1300 fps.
Funny that the 38WCF is considered marginal for deer, but a 10mm pistol is thought to be the berries for bear protection. Can you imagine someone going off into the wilds of British Columbia toting a lever action 38-40 in case they bump into a grizzly?
Just a little lightly humorous perspective.
35W
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I had thoughts along the same lines when T/C started making Contenders in .30-30.A while back I was reading one of the many (many) threads on using a 10mm pistol loaded with a 180-200 gr. cast bullet @ ~1200 fps for bear defense. It occurred to me that such a load is slightly less powerful than my ancient '73 Winchester 38 WCF and its black powder load of a 192 gr. cast FN (RCBS 40-180-FN) @ well over 1300 fps.
Funny that the 38WCF is considered marginal for deer, but a 10mm pistol is thought to be the berries for bear protection. Can you imagine someone going off into the wilds of British Columbia toting a lever action 38-40 in case they bump into a grizzly?
Just a little lightly humorous perspective.
35W
Then current gun rags basically all said "The .30-30 carbine is only good for maybe 100 yards for deer."
Whack 6-10" off the barrel and suddenly its good out to 2-300 yards, from a pistol no less.
Didn't make sense then, still doesn't.
To drift back to the original question: If I were to carry a 10mm for big bear defense, I would hunt up a few boxes of the original Norma 10mm 200gr fmj.
Those loads were a handful from Colt Delta Elite.
Robert
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