Load Improvement Tips?

[RPRNY]

9.5x47R 250 grs slicks paper patched to .377. Weighing charges individually and exactly.

52 grs 1.5 fg Olde Eynsford: MV 1283 SD 13

This is a little slow for 200 yards accuracy. Definitely signs of wobble and groups, such as they are, are @ 7”

To get any more powder in would require very heavy compression, so not the route forward.

52 grs 3fffg Olde Eynsford: MV 1423 SD 30

Bullets are definitely stabilized, no sign of wobble. Groups are better but there is vertical stringing and that Standard Deviation of 30 seems unduly high.

I will try 50 grs 3 fffg next but I would welcome advice and counsel on getting the SD down.

[Don McDowell]

Fouling control is vitally important to good groups with patched.
Signs of bullet wobble and vertical stringing first place to look is getting the bullet length to barrel twist.

[RPRNY]

Fouling control is vitally important to good groups with patched.
Signs of bullet wobble and vertical stringing first place to look is getting the bullet length to barrel twist.

Wiping every two shots, 1:14 progressive twist - plenty to stabilize 250 grs. pure lead.

[Don McDowell]

Wipe every shot, and go with a harder alloy, 1-20 would likely help.
Looks like the original loads used a 210ish grain bullet.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Fouling control must be done every shot, otherwise just peeing up a rope.

Kenny W.

[RPRNY]

Wiping every shot with a bolt action is less than ideal.

[indian joe]

Wiping every shot with a bolt action is less than ideal.

Grease groove boolits and a blow tube

Yeah I'm the heathen here - but something is seriously amiss with SD numbers
I dont do SD (another heathen move) I do ES, ten shot strings with no swab between shots and in a good barrel with careful loading can get that ES around 10 FPS - several strings in single digit territory.

If youre shooting at 100yards or less that vertical stringing is likely gun or sight picture oriented - I get that with open / barrel sights - dont hold so bad but dang it just cant see em well enough to get proper vertical alignment. or - mechanical interference (barrel heating - forend pressure variations)

[RPRNY]

Numbers, groups above 200 yards. Tang aperture sight, globe front sight.

[Kosh75287]

Forgive me if this suggestion is frowned upon or is considered unduly hazardous, but could the fouling be addressed by the use of a "duplex" load? If I understand the term correctly, this involves the use of 0.5 - 2.5 gr. of slow(ish) burning smokeless pistol propellant as part of the total powder charge. I understand the smokeless charge to be introduced first, so that it is closest to the primer flash hole, after which a slightly reduced black powder charge is measured into the case.
On firing, the more brisant smokeless powder acts as an "initiator" for the slower-to-ignite black powder, and elevates temperatures and pressures JUST enough to enable more complete burning. I've HEARD of this, and never tried it. But it seemed like something worth considering, if the fouling is wrecking accuracy to the extent believed.

[indian joe]

Numbers, groups above 200 yards. Tang aperture sight, globe front sight.

that should take care of the sight alignment question

following comments are only (maybe?) relevant to the vertical stringing issue

The SD number needs fixing but I am not qualified as to whether thats the whole reason for vertical stringing at 200yards. Kenny and Don would know that for sure.

Mechanical interference = bedding? forend interference ? I shoot lever guns for accuracy and these are prime problem - black powder loads heat a barrel much more and quicker than smokeless - so distortion, poor bedding, interference (call it whatever you like) can cause headaches that just are not there with smokeless and vertical stringing (up or down from initial POI) seems to be top of the list.

[indian joe]

Forgive me if this suggestion is frowned upon or is considered unduly hazardous, but could the fouling be addressed by the use of a "duplex" load? If I understand the term correctly, this involves the use of 0.5 - 2.5 gr. of slow(ish) burning smokeless pistol propellant as part of the total powder charge. I understand the smokeless charge to be introduced first, so that it is closest to the primer flash hole, after which a slightly reduced black powder charge is measured into the case.
On firing, the more brisant smokeless powder acts as an "initiator" for the slower-to-ignite black powder, and elevates temperatures and pressures JUST enough to enable more complete burning. I've HEARD of this, and never tried it. But it seemed like something worth considering, if the fouling is wrecking accuracy to the extent believed.

I have a couple of rifles I shoot Duplex loads in - it works fine - gain about 100FPS - no signs of overpressure - nice low ES numbers - dont like the term pistol powder (in case some goose dont read the slowish burning part and decides to use red dot or bullseye) - 4227 and SR4759 are ideal burn rate - lets call em fast'ish rifle powders. I use about 7% or 8% of the main charge of 4227 - its almost exactly same density as my Black so its a neat grain for grain swap.
However this is not allowed in competition as far as I know so our OP may wish to sort the problem with straight blackpowder. Groups are not ideal but not awful either (7" at 200yards = quite decent hunting accuracy) proly makes the "problem" more difficult to identify.

[Don McDowell]

One thing to keep in mind also is that depending on the diameter of a paper patched bullet in this case 255 gr, it is likely a good bit longer than a 255 gr grease groove bullet. When going to paper patch bullet weight isn't the determining factor bullet length is king.
Tang sight on a bolt gun must be an interesting set up.

[Gunlaker]

Unless its a really weird bullet it should be plenty stable. I shoot a 320gr elliptical PP bullet in 1:15 twist .38-55 barrels patched to bore and they are quite stable. But mine are patched to bore diameter.

That ES/SD is not good, but not enough to cause vertical stringing at such short distances.

Probably bore fouling. You might not want to wipe the bore between every shot, but you probably need to.

Chris.

[RPRNY]

One thing to keep in mind also is that depending on the diameter of a paper patched bullet in this case 255 gr, it is likely a good bit longer than a 255 gr grease groove bullet. When going to paper patch bullet weight isn't the determining factor bullet length is king.
Tang sight on a bolt gun must be an interesting set up.

This is interesting. It’s a progressive twist 1:14 so it should be stabilizing a 250 grs bullet but the slicks are .365, so they will be longer than the average bear. That wants some looking into.

Bolt and tang sight work because of the relatively short bolt throw. But, to clean the bore, one must fold the tang sight down and then remove the bolt by using the trigger to drop the sear and slide it out.. Clearance is tight but it works.

[Bent Ramrod]

You could see how many accurate shots you could get with 1/8” or so of tallow between the overpowder wad and the base of the boolit. Most people report “hunting” accuracy using this technique (and a blow tube), but Elmer Keith got groups at 100 yds that were “just one big hole” using this method with his .45 Sharps rifle. Two .45-caliber holes just touching is still under MOA, if you can do it.

You could also order 3 feet of 1/4” or so Delrin rod and use that for wiping between shots. It should bend into the chamber with the bolt left in place and still be rigid enough to push damp and dry patches through the bore. As long as you keep it clean, the rod should suffer the rubbing wear rather than the chamber and bore.

Black powder paper-patch boolits have been described as “a lot of work for a little shooting,” but if you’re interested in the process, it gets to be a kind of Zen thing. Especially when everybody else on the line is banging away as fast as possible with their ARs and AKs, to much less effect, accuracy-wise.

[Don McDowell]

Bent Ramrod is spot on with the delron rod for wiping. He's also good with the grease cookie, treating the exposed patch with a small drop of jojoba oil and wiping the excess off with a tea towel before heading to the range will help.
Indian Joe might be on to something with the bedding or the rest.
But still your first numbers show that a 200 fps increase stopped the wobble, but left the vertical stringing, to me points right at bullet length and fouling control.

[RPRNY]

Bent Ramrod is spot on with the delron rod for wiping. He's also good with the grease cookie, treating the exposed patch with a small drop of jojoba oil and wiping the excess off with a tea towel before heading to the range will help.
Indian Joe might be on to something with the bedding or the rest.
But still your first numbers show that a 200 fps increase stopped the wobble, but left the vertical stringing, to me points right at bullet length and fouling control.

Thanks to you and Bent Ramrod. I didn’t think a Delrin rod would have enough flex, but, your process of elimination suggests that fouling is in fact the next thing to go after, so why not try? I currently use a @ 1/10-1/8” depth grease cookie between an overpowder fiber card and another fiber card under the bullet base. Let’s see if better fouling control pays off and if not, looks like I may be buying a mold….

[Don McDowell]

Sometimes a single thick wad ( .060 or thicker) hard wad will do as much or more good as a grease cookie.

[BLAHUT]

I have found in my loads that a 1/16" thick plastic cut wad under the bullet over the powder card, helps clear the barrel. You did not say what you are using to light the fire? I found a CCI or Federal mag primer gave me 100 fps more, over a coronagraph, by just changing the primer. You could try blackhorn209 powder, works great for me, SD and fps very close all the time. Fouling is not a problem with blackhorn209 for me, can run 50 shots without loss of accuracy and no swabbing. Try different bullet weight, bullet shape, lead mix, rifle will tell you what it likes.

[missionary5155]

Good Morning
These threads make for good reading and memory freshening. Near every time north we are PP some other old barrel. Does good to be reminded the basics.