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Thread: Load Improvement Tips?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    A big THANK YOU.

    I haven’t been able to get out shooting so I can’t say that wiping every shot has tightened up groups, but the Delrin rod suggestion has made it possible. I can get in and wipe the barrel without having to remove the bolt or fold the tang sight. Whatever it does, it can only be for the better.

    In the meantime, I would still welcome tips for getting that SD number down with 3fffg powder.

    Thanks again.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPRNY View Post
    A big THANK YOU.

    I haven’t been able to get out shooting so I can’t say that wiping every shot has tightened up groups, but the Delrin rod suggestion has made it possible. I can get in and wipe the barrel without having to remove the bolt or fold the tang sight. Whatever it does, it can only be for the better.

    In the meantime, I would still welcome tips for getting that SD number down with 3fffg powder.

    Thanks again.
    I shoot grease groove so maybe no help
    1)you are weighing charges already
    2)drop tube it into the case
    3) precise compression
    4) good solid overpowder wad and make it neat to bore
    5) get rid of the grease cookie
    maybe run your FFFg over a screen even up the grain size some?

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    I shoot grease groove so maybe no help
    1)you are weighing charges already
    2)drop tube it into the case
    3) precise compression
    4) good solid overpowder wad and make it neat to bore
    5) get rid of the grease cookie
    maybe run your FFFg over a screen even up the grain size some?
    Loaded via drop tube and uniform compression achieved with a compression stem. Interested in why you suggest elimination the grease cookie. Thanks.

  4. #24
    Boolit Bub
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    Loading for and shooting sporting ammunition for BPCR rifles is my hobby, so I’ll make a few suggestions based on my experience. Use 16/1 lead/tin alloy. You might try 20/1 also. Use fiber milk cartons for the wads. Use a lube wad at least 3/16” to 1/4” thick of either DGL or 2 jojoba oil/ bees wax for the lube cookie. If you use Rooster Jacket on the patch, blow tubing is possible but should not be required. After firing 5 shots the bore should be clean and shiny with very little fouling in the corners of the rifling.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPRNY View Post
    Loaded via drop tube and uniform compression achieved with a compression stem. Interested in why you suggest elimination the grease cookie. Thanks.
    I have no experience with paper patch - zero - never done it
    Grease cookie under a grease groove lubed boolit is a poor (very poor) substitute for finding a boolit with decent enough lube grooves to do the job - the cookie is often messy - bleeds into the powder - sticks to the boolit base - I have seen a paper target set alight at 15 meters distance from a grease cookie stuck to the rear of a round ball from a colt. So - seen more problems from them than they solved - shouldnt need em unless your grease groove boolit is a poor design for blackpowder.
    If you need lube for your PP boolit then a lubed felt wad would make sense but a cookie less so -------but I know nothing of the PP game

    On top of that I view the overpowder wad as important in my loads - the grease cookie is gonna mess that up

    I dont shoot grease cookies and can get my grease groove loads down into single digit ES territory without cleaning between shots ...good boolits well fit to bore, solid overpowder wad well fit to bore, careful loading process, occasional gentle use of a blow tube. Maybe its dumb luck but been doin this stuff a long time.
    Last edited by indian joe; 11-08-2022 at 06:10 AM.

  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy
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    A 9.5 mm bore should give enough room for a boot lace pull-through. Find a smallish boot lace, and put three loops in it. First loop for a patch wet with cleaner of choice; maybe Hoppes or Simple Green. Last two loops for dry patches.
    If the bore is too small, find a large square weed eater string and cut three loops in it.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPRNY View Post
    Loaded via drop tube and uniform compression achieved with a compression stem. Interested in why you suggest elimination the grease cookie. Thanks.
    With respect to the lube/grease cookie, they work quite well in providing a good gas seal, but they don't usually give very consistent velocities. At least that has been my experience with a lot of PP rounds fired. However even with lube cookies getting into the 1.0-1.5 MOA range at 200 yards isn't too tricky, at least in my .45 cal BP rifles.

    My main interest is precision from 200 to 1000 yards. In general I wouldn't use any load with an SD greater than the low 4's in FPS. With PP bullets that's pretty easily achievable with LDPE wads and a good shot to shot foul management. I know that you didn't really want to get into cleaning the heck out of your rifle between shots, but that's the easiest way to get there.

    With all that said, I once won our local "Quigley Shoot" with targets from 500m to 800m using a C. Sharps .45-110 loaded with PP bullets and lube cookies.

    Chris.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks for the thoughts on grease cookies. Now that the Delrin rod should allow for wiping after every shot without having to fold the tang sight and remove the bolt, I will try the next batch without a grease cookie and see what impact that has on SDs.

  9. #29
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    How many patches do you use to wipe between shots?

    Not that a magic number does the trick, but none of my paper-patch rifles really started sitting up and talking until I decided to clean (not just wipe) the bore between shots.

    I found it might take as many as four wet patches, followed by a dry one, before the rifle started showing real target accuracy. But I didn’t limit myself to four, necessarily; instead I looked at the dry patch at the end. If it was any darker than a light gray, the chances of a flyer on the next shot started going up. I’d do another wet patch and another dry one if I saw that, and the dry patch was always light gray after that.

    The grease-groove guys here “wipe” between shots: one wet patch to keep the worst of the fouling down to a consistent level, and a swab to get any moisture out of the chamber. The lubricant on the boolit takes care of any “issues” beyond that, but one wet patch isn’t near enough cleaning for paper-patch boolits. And grease cookies under paper patch boolits generally don’t soften the fouling enough to give target accuracy, although there may be exceptions to the rule. Definitely worth trying a few shots to see, though.

    When I started using paper patch boolits in matches, I didn’t have the time for on multiple patches so went to what are called bore pigs, bore gophers, bore critters, etc. You wet them good, push one into your chamber, give it a klonk with the wiping rod to get it into the leade, put a dry patch over the end of the rod and push both out the end of the barrel. Unless there is something drastically wrong with your load, this should clean and dry the bore simultaneously, and you are ready for the next shot.

    If you don’t want to buy or make the pigs, stick with the patches, but clean the bore good until you have a load that works. Once you have your load, you can see the extent to which your gun forgives less intensive cleaning. But the bore pigs solve a lot of problems, particularly if you are shooting under time constraints.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bent Ramrod View Post
    How many patches do you use to wipe between shots?

    Not that a magic number does the trick, but none of my paper-patch rifles really started sitting up and talking until I decided to clean (not just wipe) the bore between shots.

    I found it might take as many as four wet patches, followed by a dry one, before the rifle started showing real target accuracy. But I didn’t limit myself to four, necessarily; instead I looked at the dry patch at the end. If it was any darker than a light gray, the chances of a flyer on the next shot started going up. I’d do another wet patch and another dry one if I saw that, and the dry patch was always light gray after that.

    The grease-groove guys here “wipe” between shots: one wet patch to keep the worst of the fouling down to a consistent level, and a swab to get any moisture out of the chamber. The lubricant on the boolit takes care of any “issues” beyond that, but one wet patch isn’t near enough cleaning for paper-patch boolits. And grease cookies under paper patch boolits generally don’t soften the fouling enough to give target accuracy, although there may be exceptions to the rule. Definitely worth trying a few shots to see, though.

    When I started using paper patch boolits in matches, I didn’t have the time for on multiple patches so went to what are called bore pigs, bore gophers, bore critters, etc. You wet them good, push one into your chamber, give it a klonk with the wiping rod to get it into the leade, put a dry patch over the end of the rod and push both out the end of the barrel. Unless there is something drastically wrong with your load, this should clean and dry the bore simultaneously, and you are ready for the next shot.

    If you don’t want to buy or make the pigs, stick with the patches, but clean the bore good until you have a load that works. Once you have your load, you can see the extent to which your gun forgives less intensive cleaning. But the bore pigs solve a lot of problems, particularly if you are shooting under time constraints.

    Thanks for the suggestion. I use more of a piglet than a pig Tried some very nice/well made bore pigs from Buffalo Arms but they were soooo tight in the bore it was more work than worth. So, I kept the felt wads, keep them in a water and Ballistol solution until use, and then push one through - it’s a tight enough fit that I get “clean” without busting a gut - then follow with a patch to dry. Seems to work well. I get a good clean, dry barrel with two passes.

    Anyone have any thoughts on why the big difference in extreme spread and SD between the 1.5 fg load and the 3 fffg load? The 1.5 fg load gives an acceptable SD but low velocity while the extreme spread and SD on the 3 fffg load is unacceptable. Same rifle, primers, cases, pp bullet, ambient temperature etc.

  11. #31
    Boolit Bub
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    On reducing your extreme velocity spread three things come to mind. First, loose the pure lead. It’s far too soft for 3f powder. What’s coming out the muzzle probably doesn’t look like what you put in. Seriously, try 16/1. Second, you never said what or how much lube you are using for a wad. Lube like SPG are made up of greases and waxes. They work okay for target shooting with grease groove bullets where there’s fouling control between shots but for shooting dirty oils and liquid waxes are far superior. Third, it’s possible that the powder after compression does not flow freely through the bottle neck. One shot flowing freely and the next jamming for a split second causing a pressure spike resulting in velocity increase.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelR View Post
    On reducing your extreme velocity spread three things come to mind. First, loose the pure lead.
    I missed that - focussed on the follow up recommendations for alloys

    It’s far too soft for 3f powder. What’s coming out the muzzle probably doesn’t look like what you put in. Seriously, try 16/1.
    Second, you never said what or how much lube you are using for a wad.
    I think somewhere he said 1/10th to 1/8th "

    Lube like SPG are made up of greases and waxes. They work okay for target shooting with grease groove bullets where there’s fouling control between shots but for shooting dirty oils and liquid waxes are far superior.

    Third, it’s possible that the powder after compression does not flow freely through the bottle neck. One shot flowing freely and the next jamming for a split second causing a pressure spike resulting in velocity increase.

    one of my main interests is a 45/75 - a bottleneck case in shape but big enough hole at the front that it should negate your traffic jam idea

    That said I load for it alongside a 45/70 (very close to same powder capacity, same boolits over top) I can tell you for sure and certain that powder compresses completely differently in the bottleneck compared to the straight case - you can feel it, can see it if you dig em out. I have run some nice low ES numbers with that 45/75 so its not created a problem.

    OP also needs to be diligent that no part of the wad stack gets below the parallel part of the case neck - should not be a problem with PP but one more thing to tick off the list
    A couple of of interesting points that sent me back for a re read

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    One reason for big velocity variation with PP bullets is gas cutting. The gas cuts its way past the bullet before it bumps up fully. If you are able to recover some bullets your probably see the cuts around the groove corners. The FFFg burns faster and is more likely to get gas cutting than the 1.5. It can be a fine line balancing alloy hardness, powder granulation, and wads to get it all to work right. Most all of my rifles are very happy with Swiss Fg, or Swiss 1.5, a 0.060" LDPE wad, and a 16:1 bullet. And a perfectly clean bore shot to shot. For that I use 2 different systems. 3 or more wet patches followed by 2 drys. Depending on the weather. Or two passes with BACO bore wipes. One felt + dry patch, and do it twice. In all of my .45 cal rifles that's pretty much guaranteed success. The only time I vary the wad stack is when I use Kenny Wasserburger's wad stack in my .45-110 or .45-100.

    Chris.

  14. #34
    Boolit Bub
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    I’m not real big on German rifles but most rifles that I use seem like yours have a plain blade front sight even with the tang sight and are jadgewehr meant for 200 yard hunting. If you can live with 2 MOA for 5 to 10 shots, you should be able to do it with no wiping or blow tubing. That’s a 200 to 300 meter hunting rifle very much like the .38-55 Marlin Ballard, an excellent deer/bear rifle.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    Sometimes under compressed load, a magnum primer can reduce ES.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by MostlyLeverGuns View Post
    Sometimes under compressed load, a magnum primer can reduce ES.
    Definitely worth trying. Though compression in these loads is very limited - a tenth to an eighth of an inch at most - and nothing is below the base of the neck. Nevertheless, another variable to consider and address.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPRNY View Post
    Definitely worth trying. Though compression in these loads is very limited - a tenth to an eighth of an inch at most - and nothing is below the base of the neck. Nevertheless, another variable to consider and address.
    compression? I couldnt find (google) case dimensions but from pictures of commercial brass -- this round looks proportionally like a reduced size 45/75 - so - one tenth to one eighth compression in this amounts to almost nothing (case neck : case body) it be like 1 or 2 mm in a straight wall case - have you tried more compression ? One of our regular posters tests ladder loads - increase in one grain increments until you hit the sweet spot
    Edit - just for the heck of it - drop tubed into a shortnecked 45/75 case - 92 grains of last century Goex 5FA (this is graphited commercial bit finer than FFFg) level to top of case mouth - in my compression press - 20pound at the end of the handle -I thought was plenty - got me barely 4.5 mm compression - when I dug that load out with a small screwdriver the neck was tight compressed = came out half powdered and half grainy - by time I got to the bottom of the case it was full grain structure with just a few clods in it - mostly poured out after a slight tickle

    there are two points I would make
    1) yes the wide ES number needs fixing - whatever it takes to do that is worthwhile - if its not the cause of the problem, it pulls at confidence.
    2) are you sure that 1) is the cause of your shot dispersion? - if was me I would be hampered by a post front sight and I would be serious about bedding / heat distortion until I eliminated that - do that by shooting a timed group - if its cold out jack three through it to get acclimatised, set the clock, clean the gun, (properly, clean dry bore) when ten minutes is gone fire one shot, rinse and repeat - clean the gun between shots and fire one every ten minutes on the dot - its a pain in the butt boring but an hour (5 shots) will tell you something - one way or tother - - just for kicks take a blow tube with you - just a bit of clear plastic tube that will fit the chamber but not go down bore - when you done the hour of slow fire punishment - let another five go - one long slow exhale down the tube between shots - two if its hot and dry out. What happened there ? did the vertical come back? - did the last couple shots blow out of the group? tick another box .................

  18. #38
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    @ Indian Joe - Thanks for the suggestions. My rifle has an MVA globe front sight. The 9.5x47R is indeed shaped rather like the 45-75, albeit a somewhat sharper shoulder. Compression is really just to ensure uniformity. It’s loaded via drop tube. Again compression is much the same with 1.5 fg and 3fffg.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check