Any idea when Lyman will publish a new shotshell manual

[beagle]

With the advent of all these new powders, the current manual is of limited use especially on slug data. Slug data is also very scarce with data from the other powder venders for slug loads.
The powders listed by Lyman for the 20 gauge sabots are so limited and use discontinued powders as to be marginally useable.

What's the solution? Do we put pressure on the powder manufaturers, establish our own data base on castpics or live with it.

Love to see some Herco, Longshot, Unique and HS-6 data for 20 gauge 2 3/4" cases for the 20 gauge with the sabot slug.

Any help appreciated. PM experiences if you don't want to publish./beagle

[megasupermagnum]

I've heard one is in the works, although I've not seen an official announcement. If I were Lyman, I would be holding off. 2020 did not make things easier, but shotgun reloading has been going through turmoil since about 2015ish. Powders we've had for decades have been dropping like flies. Hodgdon seems to have dropped more than half of their inventory. Hulls are changing more than at any point in near history. Nobody seems to know how wads will be in the future. Federal has been anything but upfront about it. Winchester started getting out of the game 20 years ago. Remington got bought out, and nobody is sure if they are going to continue making them or not. Claybuster is here to stay, but their wads are limited, mainly Winchester clones. Downrange is so spotty on availability now. At least primers have maintained steady now, despite not being available at good prices. We can be fairly sure a Federal 209A isn't going away, nor is a Winchester 209, or Fiocchi 616. Good thing Lyman didn't make their manual earlier during the Obama years, or it would be half filled with Rio 209's which seem to be gone forever now. I'm pretty sure the Cheddite 209 will be around for a while, and if nothing else the primed hulls will be.

Alliant really should be doing a better job than they are. They don't seem to want to change though. Hodgdon already is doing good with data, but keep getting rid of powders. We should really be demanding better data from Ballistic Products. They have become trash. Tom Roster with Precision Reloading has been doing a good job, but they only release specialized data for hunting. Lyman is still making manuals, their 51st edition metallic manual just released. I'm sure they are trying to make a shotshell manual with components that will will likely stick around for at least 15 years. At the moment nobody without a crystal ball can realistically predict that at the moment.

[trapper9260]

I've heard one is in the works, although I've not seen an official announcement. If I were Lyman, I would be holding off. 2020 did not make things easier, but shotgun reloading has been going through turmoil since about 2015ish. Powders we've had for decades have been dropping like flies. Hodgdon seems to have dropped more than half of their inventory. Hulls are changing more than at any point in near history. Nobody seems to know how wads will be in the future. Federal has been anything but upfront about it. Winchester started getting out of the game 20 years ago. Remington got bought out, and nobody is sure if they are going to continue making them or not. Claybuster is here to stay, but their wads are limited, mainly Winchester clones. Downrange is so spotty on availability now. At least primers have maintained steady now, despite not being available at good prices. We can be fairly sure a Federal 209A isn't going away, nor is a Winchester 209, or Fiocchi 616. Good thing Lyman didn't make their manual earlier during the Obama years, or it would be half filled with Rio 209's which seem to be gone forever now. I'm pretty sure the Cheddite 209 will be around for a while, and if nothing else the primed hulls will be.

Alliant really should be doing a better job than they are. They don't seem to want to change though. Hodgdon already is doing good with data, but keep getting rid of powders. We should really be demanding better data from Ballistic Products. They have become trash. Tom Roster with Precision Reloading has been doing a good job, but they only release specialized data for hunting. Lyman is still making manuals, their 51st edition metallic manual just released. I'm sure they are trying to make a shotshell manual with components that will will likely stick around for at least 15 years. At the moment nobody without a crystal ball can realistically predict that at the moment.

You summed it up good. Too bad how things that worked for many years is not going to be there when needed. They say to improve what there is there now , if it not broken and worked all the time it been out why change it , it is just a market thing to force to buy new like anything other things that is out there. Thanks for the run down on it , I been wondering about most of you said . No one knows what is to come. When not sure if things are there that we use to is to stock up and hope for the best.

[fixit]

I was speaking to an lgs owner, and he was saying that there is a shortage of nitrocellulose, which is placing a big limitation on powder production. It fits, particularly with sanctions, wars, and the unpleasantness of the past 2 years!

[beagle]

So far, everyone has hit it on the head. Too much new technology, powder and hulls, shortage of components, shortage of labor. I read somewhere that the latest update of the Cast Bullet Manual last time cost in the neighborhood of $250,000 by the time it hit the street. Face it, we're a small niche of the gun market and I can understand why companies would be reluctant to jump on updates.
Seems like i've been here before though. Was getting into reloading at the tail end of the paper hulls/wads and the advent of the plastic generation. Looks like i'm in for a gap again./beagle

[W.R.Buchanan]

It is interesting that anyone would need new manuals especially for things they can't get. I still use loads from manuals that I first bought when I started reloading in 1971! I have established loads I use for every cartridge I load. I have not been searching for new loads for anything and I have no interest in new powders which do essentially nothing better than the stuff that was invented 100 years ago did.

I still use Unique in some of my Slug Loads. And Green Dot in my Shot Shell loads. I use IMR4895 in .308 and .30-06, I use W748/BL-C2 in my .223's, and W231/HP38 in my .40 S&W and .45 ACP rounds. I use W231/HP38 in my Mid range .44 Special and Magnum loads, and H110/W296 for Magnum loads which I have been using since 1976. I also use it in my .410's. I just looked at my Lyman 45th edition I got in 1972 and my .30-06 and .308 loads are in it. My Lyman 49th Edition has some of the other loads I use... I also got loads for my .45-70 and .40's .44's and .45's from articles in Handloader Magazine by Brian Pearce. These loads all use modern powders invented in the 1980's.

Surprisingly all of these calibers will do just about anything anyone could want, and they are all 60-150 years old. For example the .45-70 came out in 1873 and is more popular now than it ever was 100 years ago. Notice how Ruger has brought out the 1895 series of Marlins in .45-70 first?

Point of all this is that I don't need any more "Manuals." YMMV

Randy

[beagle]

You make several valid points, kinda, sorta, maybe. We don't need new manuals. That's a fact. But we do need access to loading data with pressure figures for new applications. Over the years, the powder producers have changed hands, powders have been discontinued, new ones introduced and the shotgun world is turned upside down with all the new cases, new primers, the powder and primer shortage and Remington going down. It's a crazy world.
I started loading in the 60s with the Lyman Cast bullet manual. Perfectly adequate. Alliant powders and Hodgdon surplus and DCM 4895 in the M1903A3. Have no problems with metallics. Got a loading manual I have compiled over the years that rivals Lymans on common calibers.
Now, with the covid shotages and new ownerships, embarking into new territory such as 20 guage slugs finds much to be desired into data. Yeah, the two sources avaiable; Lyman and BP are inadequate or unreliable. Half the powders are discontinued.
I'm wanting to use old tried powders that are available but the data just isn't there. Unique, Herco, Blue Dot(limited data), HS-6 and Longshot. I know these are in the niches for these loads but no reliable data. This is one reason for this post. Hoping to tie up with someone that has already been down this road and solved the problem and can share.
This particular corner of the reloading world is the "cutting edge" on development of slug and buckshot shooting. Here, I can find what I need as these people are doing what I want to accomplish.
I have always looked to Lyman for good data. Hodgdon is good also. I even wrote Lyman once suggesting a loose leaf manual with available updates to keep data current with out republishing a manual. Some years back. Fell on deaf ears.
I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here. Just want to produce some safe 20 gauge slug loads for my Rem 870 with components that are available. As smart as this crowd is there has to be a way to get the data we need./beagle

[W.R.Buchanan]

Beagle: if you start at what were considered "Starting Loads" IE; around 1200 fps You will be safe, and they can be bumped up a little with no worries as long as you don't go ape.

I load the vast majority of my slugs into my standard Trap Loads, which are what I would consider to be "starting loads." These loads are not even hot trap Loads, they are in the 1150-1200fps range with 1 oz. payload.

Pretty sure you have a chronograph of some type so you can monitor your loads so they don't get out of hand. Anything past 1300 fps should be approached with caution.

My standard Trap Loads are 18 or 20 gr of Green Dot Claybuster Wad and Cheddite Primers which are a right there with Win 209's. 18 gr on my single stage machine which loads most of the slugs and 20gr on my Progressive which only loads all my shot shells for clays. Had to bump it up to 20 gr to get a complete burn on teh powder as GD needed a little more pressure to burn right.

For 99% of your slug shooting you can get by nicely with Trap Level slugs. By loading your slugs in this regime you don't have to worry about blowing yourself up because you are nowhere near the max.

If you require something hotter for Hunting Big Game then go buy some Factory Loaded Brenneke slugs or other Factory Loaded ammo.

This will keep you out of trouble. as I said above I have no use for 99% of "New Powders." They do nothing for me that the old stuff doesn't do. Also New Versions of the Old Stuff are close enough to the Old Stuff to carry the same name. As long as you stay away from Max Loads,,, New versus Old is safe.

The idea of using Trap Loads for your Practice Load Slugs or general Lighter Duty loads, will always keep you safe as they are so far down in pressure that even changing components won't push you into the danger zone. Also there is nothing inadequate about a 1 oz. slug traveling at 1200 fps! If you need more power for your upcoming Polar Bear Hunt then just buy factory loaded slugs. Preferably in 12 ga.!

Hope this helps?

Randy

[beagle]

Randy, yeah, that helps.

My next move was to use loads for 7/8 ounce starter loads. Was kinda looking for pressure data but see that's not going to happen.

These will be "plinking" loads and not planning on bear hunting or anything strenous. Got a .45/70 if that comes to pass. Just want some 20 gauge utility slug loads.

Another built in safety factor is these will be put up in 2 3/4" cases and fired in a 3" chamber which gives me an additional safety factor.

Intending to work with Unique, Longshot, HS-6, Blue Dot and Herco. Got Green Dot but may pass that by.

As to new powders. I'd have been just as satisfied it they'd have stuck with the old Alliant/Hercules powders and let the new ones go although there are those that would differ with me and each to his own. Would drastically simplify logistics./beagle

Thanks for the input. I'll keep you guys posted./beagle

[15meter]

I was speaking to an lgs owner, and he was saying that there is a shortage of nitrocellulose, which is placing a big limitation on powder production. It fits, particularly with sanctions, wars, and the unpleasantness of the past 2 years!

Curious where all the nitrocellulose has gone, my understanding is that it is a made with cotton "linters", basically the cotton fibers that are too short to make into thread for weaving. Basically a byproduct that doesn't have much commercial value.

Cotton crop has had it's ups and downs over the years, but the last couple of years have not been far off historical averages.

Or is this like the LGS owner who was going on about the 50,000!!! freighters laying of LA this time last year that would take YEARS to unload?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Beagle: If you just take a regular Skeet load for your 20 ga. and substitute a Lee 7/8 oz slug for the shot,,, you'll be there. For plinking and general purpose shooting/practice ammo that is all you need.

Randy

[deces]

If this keeps up, it might be a good time to start separating the clothes in the dryer...

[beagle]

That's basically what I intend doing.....with a little research first. Just thought I'd ask around and see if I was missing a data source somewhere.
Got a Lyman sabot mould to play with. If this mould's any indications of Lyman quality since covid, we're in good shape. Best "new" Lyman mould I've had in years./beagle

QUOTE=W.R.Buchanan;5478956]Beagle: If you just take a regular Skeet load for your 20 ga. and substitute a Lee 7/8 oz slug for the shot,,, you'll be there. For plinking and general purpose shooting/practice ammo that is all you need.

Randy[/QUOTE]

[HangFireW8]

Curious where all the nitrocellulose has gone, my understanding is that it is a made with cotton "linters", basically the cotton fibers that are too short to make into thread for weaving. Basically a byproduct that doesn't have much commercial value.

Maybe it has something to do with our overall declining (declined?) domestic textiles industry?

If this mould's any indications of Lyman quality since covid, we're in good shape. Best "new" Lyman mould I've had in years./beagle

I'm happy to hear that. My last Lyman purchases of 5-8 years ago were disappointing. Boolits from "311" molds casting at ..3080-.3085 (even with high tin alloys), skinny noses departing from historical shapes, had to send one back for misalignment, I gave up on them at that point. But really I hope they're back on the ball now.

[kenton]

I imagine the cellulose is not the problem but the nitrates.

[15meter]

I imagine the cellulose is not the problem but the nitrates.

Nitric acid has most certainly gone up in price but I don't think there is any shortage of supply, for grins I searched for both the acid and cotton and supplies seem to be adequate. The US is still a major producer of cotton and the linters would come from the cotton gins way up the production stream from the clothing manufacturers.

It would be nice to hear from someone closer to the industry, this is mostly speculation from a guy that raised corn, soybeans and wheat in SE Michigan in a prior life.

Sounds to me it more a made up story like the 50,000 freighters off LA waiting to be unloaded. If you do a search for total number of container ships in service I think it comes out in the 5000 total range.

It's fun blowing up blowhards with facts. And the web does a pretty good job of providing valid data. Not always, you have to watch the websites and perhaps check several to see if facts jibe. But I believe an international shipping union before I'd believe a guy that's hanging around a gun shop stating that it would be YEARS before those 50,000 ships would be unloaded. Kind of like an unsubstantiated claim that nitrocellulose is in short supply.

[W.R.Buchanan]

15M: it wasn't 50,000 Freighters is was anywhere from 50 to 80 laying off shore at any given time. The reason for it was Newsome's law he got passed not allowing Non Union drivers to enter the Port. This resulted a drivers shortage, adn since not enough stuff was moving out of the port, container storage at the port became a problem. And the list goes on,,, and all of it was caused by Democrats!

They screw up everything they touch!

Randy

[15meter]

15M: it wasn't 50,000 Freighters is was anywhere from 50 to 80 laying off shore at any given time. The reason for it was Newsome's law he got passed not allowing Non Union drivers to enter the Port. This resulted a drivers shortage, adn since not enough stuff was moving out of the port, container storage at the port became a problem. And the list goes on,,, and all of it was caused by Democrats!

They screw up everything they touch!

Randy

It wasn't me with the 50,000 freighters, it was a guy at the gunshop making things up.

[georgewxxx]

https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads...t-slug.482780/

[Geezer in NH]

I would ask Lyman. We are idiots here who know nothing.