Chronographed - Underwood 38 Spl +P “Keith” 158 gr SWC

[RJM52]

Larry...have you ever done the same two loads from Buffalo Bore?

[Larry Gibson]

Larry...have you ever done the same two loads from Buffalo Bore?

No, I have not tested any similar Buffalo Bore loads.

[ddixie884]

Bob, send him a 20rnd box of each and he will probably run you a 10rnd pressure test and 5 shot accuracy test and pull a rnd down for comparison. that gives a coupla rnds in case he slips. Larry came through here a coupla yrs ago and I sent some Speer factory 135 gdsbhps and some pet 135gr handloads home with him and he ran tests on them for me. I also sent some N340 and a 1K pack of LPP and SPP and some .38swcbb and .45 swcbb.

Thank goodness he has patience and likes to tinker with his pressure trace equipment.
It is so nice to really know what the pressure of your pet load really is. THANX Larry................

[RJM52]

....already being arranged...

Bob

[GLynn41]

nice loads but not really saami spec .38+ ---I would not let them near a .38
unless i am missing something

[Kosh75287]

I use a similarly performing load to achieve 1000 f/s with 158 gr. LSWCs from 2" snubby barrels. Shooting them is a somewhat self-limiting process. I only use this load in snubbies when I cannot carry something larger. The recoil, noise and muzzle blast generated also require that the shooter be very, VERY motivated to shoot someone one before unleashing such a round.

[RJM52]

If S&W, Ruger and Taurus all have or have had 9mm J-frame size guns that run 30-35k psi why would one worry about 28k psi in a .38 Special in the exact same gun.

My two cylinder S&W 649-2 has digested several hundred +P+ .38 Specials, 9mms and .38 Supers and is still as tight as it was when I bought it...

Larry has ordered the same loads as tested above from Buffalo Bore so we will have an exact comparison of the two...

Bob

[GLynn41]

but still many may not know that -- and it is really still a +P+ +---all I have is a Model 28 so no problem

[ddixie884]

I’ve got a feeling that the Buffalo bores will be less pressure. More like 24,000 pounds per square inch and more akin to 38/44. Of course that is all JMHO – YMMV. Gary.

[barnetmill]

If S&W, Ruger and Taurus all have or have had 9mm J-frame size guns that run 30-35k psi why would one worry about 28k psi in a .38 Special in the exact same gun.

My two cylinder S&W 649-2 has digested several hundred +P+ .38 Specials, 9mms and .38 Supers and is still as tight as it was when I bought it...

Larry has ordered the same loads as tested above from Buffalo Bore so we will have an exact comparison of the two...

Bob

A 9x19mm chambered revolver in most cases uses the same length cylinder as the 38 spl. Means a very long free bore prior to hitting the forcing cone. Larry G was measuring these in a Thompson Contender. I wonder what the pressure is in a revolver for the 9x19 and the 38spl when loaded to similar velocities. Say a 115 grain bullet to 1100 fps with a 4 inch barrel.
I may be mistaken, but I thought pressure in a revolver maxs out when the bullet hits the forcing cone.

I would certainly not make it a high round count of BB plus P loads in a model 15 revolver.

[30calflash]

Watching this, but I think there's a caveat that should be mentioned.

Many older revolvers weren't built for high pressure loads as there weren't many at the time in regular use. I don't know if folks were smarter then but I think not wanting to 'use up' a good firearm was something not taken lightly.

Yes J frames are still J frames and now can be had in various flavors way beyond what the first chief specials were meant to handle pressure wise. Metallurgy has changed and improved in most categories and what you would put in a cylinder now is far different from in the past. So 357, 9mm, 32 Fed mag J frames can take it as they were designed to do so.

FWIW I've run a few +P's in my 442 to see where they hit and for carry but run std level loads the rest of the time. If a heavier load is your thing and you limit it to minimal use and carry it probably will work ok without taking you or the firearm out of action.

The LEO community had +P+ loads available for field use but they also had other firearms that could be used if theirs acted up and trained armorers and parts to make sure they ran as intended. Some of you may but I don't!

There's lots of info here and elsewhere to allow you to make an informed decision.

[barnetmill]

Watching this, but I think there's a caveat that should be mentioned.

Many older revolvers weren't built for high pressure loads as there weren't many at the time in regular use. I don't know if folks were smarter then but I think not wanting to 'use up' a good firearm was something not taken lightly.

Yes J frames are still J frames and now can be had in various flavors way beyond what the first chief specials were meant to handle pressure wise. Metallurgy has changed and improved in most categories and what you would put in a cylinder now is far different from in the past. So 357, 9mm, 32 Fed mag J frames can take it as they were designed to do so.

FWIW I've run a few +P's in my 442 to see where they hit and for carry but run std level loads the rest of the time. If a heavier load is your thing and you limit it to minimal use and carry it probably will work ok without taking you or the firearm out of action.

The LEO community had +P+ loads available for field use but they also had other firearms that could be used if theirs acted up and trained armorers and parts to make sure they ran as intended. Some of you may but I don't!

There's lots of info here and elsewhere to allow you to make an informed decision.

I will use +P+ 9mm in Gen 3 glocks for carry ammo in G26, G19, and G17. Although for the G26 that was originally a G33 I may opt out for standard or +P.

[Larry Gibson]

I conducted the pressure/velocity testing of the two Buffalo Bore loads discussed. Those two factory loads are BBs LSWHP +P load and BBs Heavy Outdoorsman +P load. I received a box of 20 rounds each. Thus, with 10 rounds used for the pressure test in the Contender test barrel (7.94") I had 10 rounds of each load left. I then shot a five shot velocity test in my S&W M19 with 2 1/2" barrel and my Ruger Security Six with a 6" barrel. Granted a 5 shot test isn't definitive by any means but it gives us a simple comparison to the recorded Contender velocity and the factory specified velocities. As usual, prior to the test of BB loads I shot a test of my "reference" Speer 158 standard 38 SPL SWC factory ammunition. The reference ammunition average was 100 psi close to the average which is well within test standards.

Cartridge specifications:

Buffalo Bore 158 LSWHP GC +P #20A/20 advertised velocity of 1,000 fps
Starline 38 SPL +P cases
Unkown SP primer
7.0 gr of a very fine ball powder
Bullet; 160 gr SWC HP GC'd lubed bullet, BHN measured on base after removing GC at 10, .358 diameter
Cartridge OAL; 1.453"

The Buffalo Bore 158 LSWCHP GC factory load proved to be excellent running 1340 fps with an ES/SD of 23/7 fps. The psi averaged 28,500 with an ES/SD of 0/0 psi. Yes, that is correct, every pressure measured 28,500 psi! Accuracy at 50 yards was a 1.85" group.
S&W M19 velocity was 1112 fps
Ruger SS velocity was 1255 fps

Cartridge specifications:

Buffalo Bore Heavy Outdoorsman +P w/Hard Cast Keith SWC
Starline 38 SPL +P cases
Unkown SP primer
6.0 gr of a small flake powder
157 gr Hard Cast SWC bullet with a bevel base, BHN measured 15 on nose and base, .358 diameter
Cartridge OAL; 1.440"

This load also proved to be very good with excellent uniform internals. The velocity ran 1314 fps with an ES/SD of 23/7. The pressure ran 28,400 with an ES and SD of 400/200 psi. Accuracy at 50 yards was a 2.05" group.
S&W M19 velocity was 1092 fps
Ruger SS velocity was 1218 fps.

Felt recoil in both revolvers was comparable to most current 158 gr 357 magnum loads. Not sure I'd care to shoot many in any revolver smaller than the S&W M19. I definitely would restrict their use to 357 magnum revolvers, just my opinion is all.

[wgg]

Thank you Mr. Gibson for sharing this information. Reminds me of an old saying. There ain't no free lunchs.

[RJM52]

Thanks for this...really appreciate it...

As to use...I carry the HP load in both a S&W 649 and Colt 2.5" Diamondback when in town and the Outdoorsman load when in the boonies... For the number of these rounds that will go through these guns in my ownership lifetime, I have no concerns at all...

If one changes out ones carry ammo twice a year, that would be 20 rounds for a 5 shot revolver if one shot up the 5 in the gun and 5 backup rounds...a box a year...what's ones life worth....

Bob

[RJM52]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJz3ba-l2sk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTJYsc6PdEM

Check out the difference between the 9mm and the .38 Special.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXF5HOQz5WY

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks for this...really appreciate it...

As to use...I carry the HP load in both a S&W 649 and Colt 2.5" Diamondback when in town and the Outdoorsman load when in the boonies... For the number of these rounds that will go through these guns in my ownership lifetime, I have no concerns at all...

If one changes out ones carry ammo twice a year, that would be 20 rounds for a 5 shot revolver if one shot up the 5 in the gun and 5 backup rounds...a box a year...what's ones life worth....

Bob

My apologies for not making myself clearer, my concern was not about the revolvers not handling these loads. My concern is the recoil generated in the smaller framed revolvers that a S&W K frame such as the smaller J frame and Ruger LCRs. The concern is mostly the "pain" caused to the hand. The recoil wasn't bad in the S&W M19 but I've shot enough +P 38 loads in Chiefs and even the 357s in the LCRs to know I don't like them. But for carry and shooting only if need be.......

.....so, okay, I'm a wimp when it comes to shooting small heavy recoiling handguns......

[Larry Gibson]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJz3ba-l2sk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTJYsc6PdEM

Check out the difference between the 9mm and the .38 Special.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXF5HOQz5WY

I was impressed with the performance of the BB 38 SPL LSWCHP +P in both the 4" and 2" revolvers. Penetration and expansion were excellent. Definitely a good factory round for +P rated 38 SPLs and 357 Magnums. I would expect similar performance from the Underwood version of that cartridge.

[RJM52]

..."Larry the Wimp"...yea right...

...I'm not real big on recoil either but simply a product of aging.... In a 20 oz 649 I don't find them that bad...a few to save my life would be tolerable...

[RJM52]

I’ve got a feeling that the Buffalo bores will be less pressure. More like 24,000 pounds per square inch and more akin to 38/44. Of course that is all JMHO – YMMV. Gary.

...my bet was 25K...guess we were both wrong...