Cast in .308 win issue ( Rem 700 bolt )

[Krh1326]

Guys.. I’m beyond frustrated with this rifle. It is a brand spanking new, never fired , Rem 700.
I bought it for my brother ( Sgt USMC ret, Scout/ Sniper, Counter Sniper Spec, Quantico Scout/Sniper Inst ), so the closest I could get, to his beloved M40, within my own means, was a new Rem 700.

It will cycle and chamber factory j-word ammo, no problem. For the very life of me, I cannot get it to fully chamber ANY of my half dozen .30 cal cast boolits…

I have not fired it, and I have not slugged it, as I want to give it to him PRISTINE and factory mint.

I tried sets of dummy boolits sized in steps of .311, .310 and .309 . Every piece of brass carefully processed … sized, trimmed. I have the .309 and .310 neck expanders, and have made separate sets with both sizes. I even tried to go straight from Small Base sizing die, to seating die, with the slightest bell possible, barely enough to accept .309 sized cast boolits. Every single cartridge attempt easily passes cartridge case drop in block, even after loading.

I got so frustrated, I bought some Sierra 175gr HPBT ( his beloved “hogs tooth”) and some Hornady 150gr BTSP. I made up two dummy rounds of each, in the same carefully processed brass, without doing any neck sizing… going straight from SB sizing die, to seating die ( as they are all boat tails).
All of them feed, cycle and chamber very nicely.

I sat down with those j-word dummies and the .309 cast dummies , in both .309 neck sized and non neck sized. I can’t find any variations in neck measurements that exceed .005
To anger me even further, half of the cast bullet profiles ( the lighter ones ) are even smaller , in exposed profile, than the J-words , in diameter and length.

POI: when I say won’t chamber, I mean they feed from mag, enter the chamber, and start to seat, but just can’t get that last little < 3/16” to close bolt.

I tried to use excessive pressure on the bolt, hoping to mark the powder coat or brass… and have not found any marking at all.

After any dummy has failed to go to battery, I even ran it back thru SB sizer die, with boolit in place, and still won’t chamber.

I do not have these issues loading 30-30 nor .300 BO. I do not have 30-06 to try and compare.
I am at witts end. I actually just ordered a .308 push thru, well … because… it can’t hurt to try, at this point.

I am running out of time, to try to figure this cast issue out, before I have to give him the gift.
I know frustration leads to complications and compounding problems… so any help is more than appreciated.

[HumptyDumpty]

I'd wager the throat is too tight. I've recently encountered the same problem with cast boolits in a 10mm Sig P320; that extra thousandth of an inch bulges the brass just enough to cause problems. I got them to reliably chamber by removing the decapping pin, and running the completed rounds through my sizing die.

[M-Tecs]

Blacken the case and bullet with a sharpie and see where the contact is. One you know that you can address the cause.

[Krh1326]

I'd wager the throat is too tight. I've recently encountered the same problem with cast boolits in a 10mm Sig P320; that extra thousandth of an inch bulges the brass just enough to cause problems. I got them to reliably chamber by removing the decapping pin, and running the completed rounds through my sizing die.

I have encountered that, every once in a while, with an odd boolit, here and there, and that remedy always seems to work. But having tried that, on every single dummy, after failing to chamber, still results in no-go.

Could a tight throat be a “new, non fired rifle” issue? Meaning after running many factory rounds, could it wear a little?

[Krh1326]

Blacken the case and bullet with a sharpie and see where the contact is. One you know that you can address the cause.

Simplisticly perfect..!! Thank you, will try as soon as I muster up to go back into the barn.

[Winger Ed.]

Just a guess, but I think your empty case may not be sized enough.
drawing with a sharpie on the entire round should tell you where the problem is.

This reminds of the same thing happening in my early days.
I bought a brand new Lee .308 dies set, and 1,000 fired GI 7.62 NATO.

I set everything up, Lee die going all the way down onto the Lee shell holder with my new Hornady single stage press.
Being trusting, and not knowing any better: I then sized & deprimed all 1,000 brass.

Not a single one would chamber in a rack grade Springfield M1A.
They stuck out about 1/8" from going on in.

I got a new Hornady die set, sized and checked the first 2-3, and lived happily ever after.

[Krh1326]

This reminds of the same thing happening in my early days.

I bought a brand new Lee .308 dies set, and 1,000 fired GI 7.62 NATO.

I set everything up, Lee die going all the way down onto the Lee shell holder with my new Hornady single stage press.
Being trusting, and not knowing any better: I then sized & deprimed all 1,000 brass.

Not a single one would chamber in a rack grade Springfield M1A.
They stuck out about 1/8" from going on in.

I got a new Hornady die set, sized and checked the first 2-3, and lived happily ever after.

Do you find the RCBS Small Base dies, to be any better than the Lee? On par with the Hornady?
I’m using brand new ( just for this project ) RCBS Small Base dies.

[Larry Gibson]

If the rounds chamber with .308 jacketed bullets then the sizing die and sizing of the cases is not the problem. Your cast bullets are the problem. The sizing of those is probably not the problem either. Best bet is the nose of the cast bullets (you don't mention the specific cast bullet(s) you're using?) is the problem or you're not seating them deep enough and the front of the front drive band is jamming into the leade.

What is the diameter of the bullet nose in front of the drive band(s)?

BTW, there should be no need for a SB die with that rifle. It will be much better served with a set (including both FL & NS dies) of Bonanza Benchrest Dies.

[crackers]

"I tried to use excessive pressure on the bolt, hoping to mark the powder coat or brass…"

Measure some of those six noses. Anything over .300 is going to be a problem when it's long enough to interfere with the rifling.

[Krh1326]

If the rounds chamber with .308 jacketed bullets then the sizing die and sizing of the cases is not the problem. Your cast bullets are the problem. The sizing of those is probably not the problem either. Best bet is the nose of the cast bullets (you don't mention the specific cast bullet(s) you're using?) is the problem or you're not seating them deep enough and the front of the front drive band is jamming into the leade.

What is the diameter of the bullet nose in front of the drive band(s)?

BTW, there should be no need for a SB die with that rifle. It will be much better served with a set (including both FL & NS dies) of Bonanza Benchrest Dies.

I should have indicated the molds…
Not that I expect to use each of them, just included these all for fit and test.

Lee C309-170-F. .3010
Lee C309-180-R. .3010
Lee TL309-230-5R. .3010
Lee C312-155-2R. .3080
MP 311-410. .3085
MP 308 Hunt HP .3085

[Krh1326]

I should have indicated the molds…
Not that I expect to use each of them, just included these all for fit and test.

Lee C309-170-F. .3010
Lee C309-180-R. .3010
Lee TL309-230-5R. .3010
Lee C312-155-2R. .3080
MP 311-410. .3085
MP 308 Hunt HP .3085

I am finding that the Lee molds are not round, lmao … these measurements are the largest of the diameters that I can find.

[405grain]

Larry's right, the problem isn't your brass or your sizing - it's the cast bullets. Here's the clue: "I tried to use excessive pressure on the bolt, hoping to MARK THE POWDER COAT or brass… and have not found any marking at all." Are you doing a typical shake-n-bake powder coat? When you powder coat cast bullets the coating enlarges the diameter of the whole bullet. You can run the bullet through a sizing die, but that only sizes the driving bands. If the nose of the bullet is too large in diameter the cartridge will not chamber.

I was experiencing this exact same problem with several of my rifles. The suggestion to seat the bullets deeper won't help with bore riding designs, and would most likely require placing the gas check well below the case shoulder which usually doesn't do accuracy any favors. Some casters have used nose sizing dies to try to solve this problem. I went that route, but soon discovered that it would make the nose the correct diameter, but that it would then no longer be concentric with the driving bands. Finally I started using a process to powder coat just the driving bands and leave the nose bare. It's more time consuming than just doing a shake and bake, but coating the whole bullet makes them totally useless in my firearms because then they can't be chambered. Even with coating just the driving bands the bullet prep takes no longer than say, paper patching.

Here's a quick and easy way to determine if the powder coating is what's causing your troubles; Make up a dummy round with a bullet that has no powder coating. Just run it through a .309" sizer and load it into a sized case. If it chambers without any issues the problem is that the powder coat is making the nose too fat. If the dummy still won't chamber there's some other issue going on. Here's a snapshot of some of the bullets made in the way I described.

[Krh1326]

Larry's right, the problem isn't your brass or your sizing - it's the cast bullets. Here's the clue: "I tried to use excessive pressure on the bolt, hoping to MARK THE POWDER COAT or brass… and have not found any marking at all." Are you doing a typical shake-n-bake powder coat? When you powder coat cast bullets the coating enlarges the diameter of the whole bullet. You can run the bullet through a sizing die, but that only sizes the driving bands. If the nose of the bullet is too large in diameter the cartridge will not chamber.

I was experiencing this exact same problem with several of my rifles. The suggestion to seat the bullets deeper won't help with bore riding designs, and would most likely require placing the gas check well below the case shoulder which usually doesn't do accuracy any favors. Some casters have used nose sizing dies to try to solve this problem. I went that route, but soon discovered that it would make the nose the correct diameter, but that it would then no longer be concentric with the driving bands. Finally I started using a process to powder coat just the driving bands and leave the nose bare. It's more time consuming than just doing a shake and bake, but coating the whole bullet makes them totally useless in my firearms because then they can't be chambered. Even with coating just the driving bands the bullet prep takes no longer than say, paper patching.

Here's a quick and easy way to determine if the powder coating is what's causing your troubles; Make up a dummy round with a bullet that has no powder coating. Just run it through a .309" sizer and load it into a sized case. If it chambers without any issues the problem is that the powder coat is making the nose too fat. If the dummy still won't chamber there's some other issue going on. Here's a snapshot of some of the bullets made in the way I described.

Wow those are purty!

I get what you are both saying…. It’s killing me, as the same boolits fly out of son’s .300 BO AR…
Calling it a night. Back to drawing board, in AM

[Hahndorf1874]

I use the Lyman 311644BV mold ,sized to .309 ,it is a tapered pill fits most .308 throats ,easy peasy shoots like a dart, sub and Min. MOA in my Schultz and Larsen mod 62. 30 grains of varget,LLA lube. BTW it shoots in my other 308 s as well. Cheers Mal in au.

[TurnipEaterDown]

A 'cobbler' way to check the bullet nose for interference w/o slugging throat or casting the chamber would be to simply take a DUMMY BULLET and turn the nose down a thousandth, and two thousandths, etc. until it chambers. This can be done with a piece of sandpaper wrapped on the nose of the bullet and turning by grabbing the base. Make sure no grit gets embedded to get carried into the chamber, and never use a modified bullet like this to shoot -- Murphy will embed a bit of grit somewhere...

This should help you diagnose nose fit in another manner if you need, and has a side benefit of putting circumferential grooves in the nose that will show contact marks from throat / leade a little easier.

I have brought the body of DUMMY cast bullets down this way to slip fit in stoney point modified cases (wildcats where I had just Sized cases to make modified to fit the tool and I hadn't fired anything to the chamber yet).

I also have a rifle that has a tight throat that allows jacketed bullets of full bore body dia to seat out past magazine length and yet chamber, but a cast bullet 0.001 over bore has to be seated much short of magazine length. In a funnel throat this nose diameter feature isn't as noticeable as a in parallel throat. By SAAMI drawing, the 308 Winchester has a 0.310" parallel throat for 0.090". Stated tolerance is +.002, -0.000. Sometimes things get past factory checks or SPC.

[charlie b]

Yep. My Savage has the same kind of issue. When using a 'std' bullet, like the NOE XCB, it must be seated deep in the case. Powder coating just makes this worse. When using bore riding designs they may need to be nose sized to fit inside the rifling, and they may still be seated with the base below the neck.

The SAAMI spec for .308 shows a short throat. Most cast bullets do not have much of an ogive so they must be seated deeper.

I still get good accuracy from cast bullets, including the XCB and some of the Lee designs (C309 150 to 200gn). They just get seated deep.

Do as mentioned with a black sharpie to see where on the bullet the rifling engages. Then seat the bullet deeper. And, yes, you will be seating them deeper than the crimp grooves.

[Multra]

This is why I switched over to hi-tek from powder coating. PC just adds too much girth to the nose of the bullet and makes chambering in some firearms a pain.

[TurnipEaterDown]

A 'cobbler' way to check the bullet nose for interference w/o slugging throat or casting the chamber would be to simply take a DUMMY BULLET and turn the nose down a thousandth, and two thousandths, etc. until it chambers. This can be done with a piece of sandpaper wrapped on the nose of the bullet and turning by grabbing the base. Make sure no grit gets embedded to get carried into the chamber, and never use a modified bullet like this to shoot -- Murphy will embed a bit of grit somewhere...

This should help you diagnose nose fit in another manner if you need, and has a side benefit of putting circumferential grooves in the nose that will show contact marks from throat / leade a little easier.

I have brought the body of DUMMY cast bullets down this way to slip fit in stoney point modified cases (wildcats where I had just Sized cases to make modified to fit the tool and I hadn't fired anything to the chamber yet).

I also have a rifle that has a tight throat that allows jacketed bullets of full bore body dia to seat out past magazine length and yet chamber, but a cast bullet 0.001 over bore has to be seated much short of magazine length. In a funnel throat this nose diameter feature isn't as noticeable as a in parallel throat. By SAAMI drawing, the 308 Winchester has a 0.310" parallel throat for 0.090". Stated tolerance is +.002, -0.000. Sometimes things get past factory checks or SPC.

My thought organizer / self checker was pretty compromised when I wrote the other post here...

I was trying to say:
Nose dia (portion ahead of driving band, less than body dia) is related to bore dia. Nominally 0.300. Rifling marks should be present if interferring. Still can check by turning slightly like I mentioned.
Body / driving band fit is important to throat, and the 308 is supposed to be parallel for 0.090 at 0.310. This should relate to how far the driving band can extend past mount of case. If sized 0.310, could well interfere on a tight throat. If sized 0.309, should pass unless sub spec on throat.

My bad on the hash I made of my original comment / attempt to contribute. Was pretty muddled it seems...

[Larry Gibson]

I should have indicated the molds…
Not that I expect to use each of them, just included these all for fit and test.

Lee C309-170-F. .3010
Lee C309-180-R. .3010
Lee TL309-230-5R. .3010
Lee C312-155-2R. .3080
MP 311-410. .3085
MP 308 Hunt HP .3085

If you have any of the first 3 Lee bullets not PC'd yet size one .310, seat and then see how it chambers. If it chambers, it's the PC that is causing the problem.

I have a bunch of Bore riders in various calibers for use in rifles. I have obtained then so the nose fits the bore. The PC them would simply cause the problems you have. Another reason I haven't jumped on the PC wagon.

[Ben]

The nose of the cast bullet is too large.

Ben