Issues loading 30-30 for a Winchester 94AE for the first time

[VariableRecall]

I had put together a ladder test for a pal's old (and not used in over a decade) used Winchester 94AE, with a mystery scope atop its two rails. Unfortunately, it didn't go as well as I had hoped. I could use some advice.
Here's how I had loaded them up.
I had received some 30-30 projectiles from a boolit pal, which were about 170gn gas checked projectiles. I believe they may have been a little oversized. They were seated at the crimp groove with a tight crimp. I believe they are from a Lyman mold. I had purchased some 30-30 brass from another reloader as well. I had used CCI 7.62 NATO Large Rifle Primers, as those were the only ones I could find. The powder I used was IMR 4198, starting at 18gn and ending at 22gn, near the recommended limit.

During my time at the range, I sent some factory rounds downrange with it without issue. The Angle Eject aspect of the rifle really flung them clear.
Feeling ready for the ladder test, I emptied the rifle, opened the action, and pushed the first 18gn load reload all the way into the breech, closing the action behind it.
I took aim, and fired, and the recoil felt a little more stiff than the 150gn factory rounds I was shooting earlier. Much to my horror, I could not get the action open with my hands. Using extra leverage, I got the bolt open to find that the primer was loosened from its seat. There was no hole in the primer itself, it merely was un-seated from its place. I needed to use a ram-rod with a bit of force to get the brass out of the breech.
I had stopped the ladder test after that, for obvious reasons. I fired some more factory ammo and that ran just fine, much to my relief.
I've dumped the rest of the ladder test into the "pulldown" pile and I'm doing my best to after-action this and figure out what I'm doing wrong here.

When inspecting the bolt, there was a faint reversed mark of the headstamp on the bolt face. The brass did not look necessarily torn on its rim, but there was a divot in the rim on the extractor side of the rifle. I have the physical evidence of the primer, and the brass safe, but in my haste, I did not take photos.

As I'm writing this and putting this story together, I'm starting to believe that I may have failed to allow the extractor to catch on the rim of the cartridge. Perhaps firing it forced the extractor onto it, causing the action to seize and the primer to pop out? I did not see black marks on the primer itself to indicate gas blowing through it, as far as I could remember.

For those of you with more 30-30 experience, should I have started at a lower powder charge? 18gn seems pretty reasonable to me, and shouldn't have caused so much of an issue.
I'd appreciate any advice you have for me.

[atr]

my first reaction when I read your post was to suggest NOT putting a heavy crimp on the round. I usually just lightly crimp...just enough to eliminate the flared edge on the case. The primer issue is puzzling.
last thought...was the brass used really worn out? If so, the primer pocket could have been loose due to too many reloads. Old brass may also play a role with the the stuck case; the brass itself may not expand and then contract if it is old worn out brass.
atr

[VariableRecall]

my first reaction when I read your post was to suggest NOT putting a heavy crimp on the round. I usually just lightly crimp...just enough to eliminate the flared edge on the case. The primer issue is puzzling.
last thought...was the brass used really worn out? If so, the primer pocket could have been loose due to too many reloads. Old brass may also play a role with the the stuck case; the brass itself may not expand and then contract if it is old worn out brass.
atr

There is a good chance that the brass is worn out, or just overly soft for some reason. the brand was PMC. Decent quality brand I've had no issues with in other calibers, reloaded or otherwise.
One thing I did notice while loading the rounds was that a lot of them needed a good deal of sizing to get in spec. For example, most of the brass that was left unsized wouldn't feed in the rifle at all. I'd assume whoever used the brass last really put them through their paces. For obvious reasons, I won't use the brass that had the blown out primer. But, the good thing is that now I have some guaranteed only used once factory brass to try out next.

Also, I'll tone down the crimp a good deal cause right now the crimp is quite literally revolver strength, near flush with the lead.

I really appreciate your input!

[FergusonTO35]

Hmm, your loads seem quite reasonable. The design of the 94 is such that the firing pin striker won't line up properly without the bolt in battery. For the cartridge to be chambered without the extractor snapped over the cartridge rim it would be pretty far out of battery. Do your boolits feel like they are chambering easily? If you feel like you have to shove the lever closed they are probably catching in the throat, which can certainly raise pressure and cause headspace problems. The nose of the boolit from that particular mold may be too fat to chamber in your particular rifle. I know that the Lee 170 grain mold I have currently fits just fine in all my rifles, whereas the Lee 150 grain mold I used to have was too fat in the nose.

[VariableRecall]

Hmm, your loads seem quite reasonable. The design of the 94 is such that the firing pin striker won't line up properly without the bolt in battery. For the cartridge to be chambered without the extractor snapped over the cartridge rim it would be pretty far out of battery. Do your boolits feel like they are chambering easily? If you feel like you have to shove the lever closed they are probably catching in the throat, which can certainly raise pressure and cause headspace problems. The nose of the boolit from that particular mold may be too fat to chamber in your particular rifle. I know that the Lee 170 grain mold I have currently fits just fine in all my rifles, whereas the Lee 150 grain mold I used to have was too fat in the nose.

One thing that I can note is that I believe the projectiles I was given were oversized. I didn't check their exact diameter, but when loading the projectiles they did shave some lead. I believe they were sized to .311 or something. I do have a .309 sizer handy so I could have the opportunity to size the projectiles to a more narrow diameter. Given the fact that the variant of the Model 94 that my buddy has is one introduced in the 80's, I'm pretty sure that the rifle would not have the issues that are normally reserved for turn of the century rifles, and would certainly have a groove diameter of .308.

When I chambered the reload, It didn't feel much different than the rest. I don't know for sure if the extractor actually caught behind the rim or not.
I also do have that Lee 170gn boolit mold you discussed, but I've yet to cast with them just yet. I plan on powder coating and gas-checking those projectiles to ensure that bore stays squeaky clean.

[Bazoo]

It’d take 50k (guess) or more to lock a win 94 up like that, not the 42k max it runs at. Absolutely no way for it to chamber and fire without the extractor being over the rim as the firing pin doesn’t protrude far enough to ignite a cartridge outside the bolt face recess.

A fat bullet won’t add detrimental pressure to an otherwise safe load.

Things that could cause your issues, if high pressure, would be, an over charge. Jamming the bullet into the rifling severely. Or, long brass that is not allowed to open sufficient because it’s pinched at the chamber end. Military primers would mask high pressure.

Primers that are proud after firing is an indicator of low pressure, not enough to force the case rearward and reseat it. Excessive headspace, or headspace that’s on the loose side. This is common with 30-30 lever guns. So that’s a mystery considering the stuck brass is indicator of high pressure.

After rambling, and thinking, I’d bet it’s excessive headspace. If the locking block is not a touch proud with the top of the receiver when closed, or atleast flush, something is worn, probably the lever to bolt pin or link pin.

[nvbirdman]

Measure the length of your sized cases. Your cases were hard to size which tells me they may have been fired in a large chamber. When you size them back down, the excess brass must go somewhere, and it will go into a longer neck. If the neck is too long, it may not be releasing the boolit, thereby raising the pressure.

[rintinglen]

Measure the length of your sized cases. Your cases were hard to size which tells me they may have been fired in a large chamber. When you size them back down, the excess brass must go somewhere, and it will go into a longer neck. If the neck is too long, it may not be releasing the boolit, thereby raising the pressure.

Were I a betting man, this is where I'd put my money. The 30-30 is one of the worst cartridges in my experience for needing to be trimmed frequently. This was used brass, shot in another rifle and is almost certainly too long for the chamber of that Winchester. Check the length and trim it to 2.03" max.

[John Taylor]

Sounds like it had an over pressure problem. Many 94s have headspace that is more than it should be and the primers will back out a bit, I had one come in with .025" headspace and was still being used. To have a primer fall out completely indicates the brass has deformed and the primer pocket is now oversize. There are several things that can cause an over pressure cartridge, most common is too much powder. Also old powder that has moisture. Lead bullets usually don't cause over pressure even if they are a few thousandth oversize. Brass being too long can also cause a problem. The fact that the action was hard to open is another indicator that there was too much pressure. I have seen Buffalo bore ammo do the same thing with a 94 and an 1886, they like to load their ammo hot.

[FergusonTO35]

Sounds like it had an over pressure problem. Many 94s have headspace that is more than it should be and the primers will back out a bit, I had one come in with .025" headspace and was still being used. To have a primer fall out completely indicates the brass has deformed and the primer pocket is now oversize. There are several things that can cause an over pressure cartridge, most common is too much powder. Also old powder that has moisture. Lead bullets usually don't cause over pressure even if they are a few thousandth oversize. Brass being too long can also cause a problem. The fact that the action was hard to open is another indicator that there was too much pressure. I have seen Buffalo bore ammo do the same thing with a 94 and an 1886, they like to load their ammo hot.

Listen to this guy, he knows what he is talking about!

[Minerat]

Check your Max chamber length in the gun then the OCL of the loaded round. I ha a similar issue with 175 gr 7mm mag with exact same powder charges. The Sierras were just fine the Barnes locked up the bolt and damaged ejector in the bolt. Turn out the OCL I used was based on the overall length but the Barnes had a shorter olgive to tip distance then the Sierra causing the Barnes to be pushed into the rifling causing an over pressure that blew the primer. I now measure the max length to the lands and the cartridge max length to the olgive.

Fortunately the gun was a 110 Savage and the load was not max.

[NEKVT]

Double check that your powder type and charge are what you think it should be. If a factory load had no issues no way that load should lock up your bolt and need to pound out the case which expanded enough to drop out the primer. The pressure had to be way more than the factory load.

[VariableRecall]

Sounds like it had an over pressure problem. Many 94s have headspace that is more than it should be and the primers will back out a bit, I had one come in with .025" headspace and was still being used. To have a primer fall out completely indicates the brass has deformed and the primer pocket is now oversize. There are several things that can cause an over pressure cartridge, most common is too much powder. Also old powder that has moisture. Lead bullets usually don't cause over pressure even if they are a few thousandth oversize. Brass being too long can also cause a problem. The fact that the action was hard to open is another indicator that there was too much pressure. I have seen Buffalo bore ammo do the same thing with a 94 and an 1886, they like to load their ammo hot.

Great to hear from you again John!
This is my first foray into lever action loading, so I'm very thankful to have people with lots of experience to give me some advice.
I'll be certain to try and trim the brass. I assume that should be done after sizing the brass?
I have a Lee Quick Trim tool for .223, but not one for .30-30. I've got a feeling that I will be making use of the trimmer a lot more for 30-30 than the .223 brass.
The Factory ammunition that I had been gifted was Remington Core-Lockt 150gn Jacketed Soft-Point.

Would it be bad to make a trial load that reduces the powder charge to 16gn of IMR 4198, about 2 grains less than the recommended load? I've got a feeling that it would still clear the barrel but would be drastically under-pressure. better safe than sorry.

Also, what's your favorite powder for 30-30?

[Bird]

Your ammo may be over pressure. Check the empty cartridge length. If the neck is too long. the case mouth with a seated bullet may be pinched in the chamber mouth causing high pressures.
Check your powder scale accuracy, and make sure the brass is truly empty before adding powder.
Load up some of your factory fired brass and try that, and see if the primers stay in the pockets.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello VariableRecall,

I've always sized my 30-30 bullets to .309".
I also use IMR 3031 powder.

AntiqueSledMan.

[toallmy]

A simple test to see if the boolits are to large to release from the case when fired , is to try fitting a boolit in the neck of a case that has been fired in the rifle before resisting the case . The case neck when fired will expand to the chamber than spring back a little so if the cast boolits will fit in the case before resisting it - there is enough room they can be released when fired - without building up to much pressure - unless the case is to long .
Jamming the cast boolits in the rifling will cause pressure to rise also but with cast boolits it's generally not enough to create a over pressure situation . You can check your over all length of the loaded cartridge when you chamber a round then extract it look closely at the boolit to see if it has marks from the rifling .

[FergusonTO35]

For jacketed, I like 30-32 grains IMR 4064. For cast, there are a bunch that work great but I like Accurate 2495 quite well.

[garandsrus]

Assuming your powder didn’t somehow get mixed up, and your scale is accurate, your case being too long is the most obvious thing to look at, not allowing the bullet to release without excessive pressure. Cast bullets sized to .310 are very common in the 30-30.

It’s not a headspace problem as the 30-30 will headspace off the case rim if nothing else. There are any number of cases that are fireformed from 30-30, blowing the shoulder forward into the chamber. This is no different than a chamber having excessive headspace and doesn’t cause pressure problems. It is also how all the Ackley Improved cartridges are formed.

One thing you could try to see if you are jamming the bullets into the lands is to chamber one of your reloads and then eject it from the rifle without firing. You will see lands marks in the bullet if it contacts them. If it’s a “lot” of jam, the bullet will stick in the barrel and get pulled out of the brass. Make sure the rifle is pointed upward so you don’t dump powder all over the internals.

[725]

It's an odd question, but by any chance did the ammo in question ever get tumbled to "make it pretty". Old brass, tarnish marks, dull colorization, etc. will have some thinking about making it look better. A trip to the tumbler might brighten up the brass, but it also may agitate the powder within and cause powder grains to get reduced in size by the vibrations. Not the bouncing in the back of the pick-up vibrations, rather the kind of constant movement we use to polish the brass. Significantly reduce the grain size and burn pressures change. Just a thought.

[toallmy]

I don't think the powder charges you mentioned will create this situation ( secondary ignition- a pop & than a loud bang ), but how did the round sound when you fired it ?