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Thread: Flat Nose Bullets

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    I have a question for you, if, in your Charter Arms 44 Special you had only TWO CHOICES of bullets, a 245 grain ROUND NOSE and a 245 grain FLAT POINT with Meplat diameter of .300 inches at 700 fps which one would you choose for self defense.
    ONLY the TWO choices I gave you and why? I bet you would choose the round nose.
    OK... I pick the flat nose bullet.

    You lost your bet. Now pay up! Or am I expected to pay you somewhere else later on? What's it all about, Maggie?
    "Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth.” --George Orwell

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Cheer View Post

    To illustrate how flat noses behave, this was from penetration tests with a .41 caliber revolver* using round flat nose, semi-wadcutter and wadcutter bullets fired into stacked paper that had been soaked in water until the binder gelled and the fibers were separating.
    Wide flat noses tend to stack flesh, temporarily making the stacked flesh a part of the projectile as well as imparting a more violent sideways velocity to the perimeter. That's why the #41026 penetrated half as far as the others.

    *.36 caliber Pietta replica 1858 Remington modified to use .41 caliber molds.
    Very interesting, Good Cheer. Thanks.

    Here's a quick pic showing the two Lyman bullets. I'd be curious how the heavy version of the 410214 would penetrate.

    "Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth.” --George Orwell

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by pettypace View Post
    OK... I pick the flat nose bullet.

    You lost your bet. Now pay up! Or am I expected to pay you somewhere else later on? What's it all about, Maggie?
    Good to know. And very interesting. Why didn't you pick the RN?
    Last edited by 44MAG#1; 09-24-2022 at 08:51 AM.

  4. #44
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    Hey pettypace,
    Once upon a time a very generous member here on castboolits actually loaned a beautiful #410214 to me so I could try some. He probably has the only one in existence. However, I didn't test it for penetration.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    Temporary cavity is cavitation. Just because the temporary cavity is temporary doesn't mean it isn't a cavity. It is a cavity at the time it happens that is the reason it is called TEMPORARY CAVITY. Cavity, cavity, cavity as in temporary CAVITY. Now the remaining cavity is a cavity such as in REMAINING cavity. The spray of and crushing of tissue that causes the permanent cavity, in my mind, is a direct cause of the temporary cavity.

    I’d have to disagree…..
    The “Permanent Wound Cavity” is caused by the bullet…. Lol

    The “Temporary” or “Stretch” cavity has been proven to have very little, if any, serious contribution to the wounding, or incapacitation, capabilities of projectiles at typical handgun velocities with bullets of any style, type, or design.
    Elastic tissues in the body, like muscles, seem almost unaffected by the “Temporary Cavity”, simply retracting immediately afterward, where less elastic tissue (like liver) seem to retain “some” small increase in damage.
    The “Temporary Cavity” mainly causes pretty pictures in gelatin and impressive holes on entry into clay. It has no direct causal effect on the “Permanent Wound Channel” at typical handgun velocities.
    “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”.... Mark Twain

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by cainttype View Post
    I’d have to disagree…..
    The “Permanent Wound Cavity” is caused by the bullet…. Lol

    The “Temporary” or “Stretch” cavity has been proven to have very little, if any, serious contribution to the wounding, or incapacitation, capabilities of projectiles at typical handgun velocities with bullets of any style, type, or design.
    Elastic tissues in the body, like muscles, seem almost unaffected by the “Temporary Cavity”, simply retracting immediately afterward, where less elastic tissue (like liver) seem to retain “some” small increase in damage.
    The “Temporary Cavity” mainly causes pretty pictures in gelatin and impressive holes on entry into clay. It has no direct causal effect on the “Permanent Wound Channel” at typical handgun velocities.
    This is a free world. You can disagree if you want. A TEMPORARY CAVITY see CAVITY is a cavity even though it is TEMPORARY. Hence the word cavity. The bullet shoving it's way through the pliable medium causes both the TEMPORARY and the PERMANENT cavity. How I know is that without the bullet how would we have either? The bullet doesn't just carefully carve a nice neat little hole. The residual effects is caused by the bullet. Both the TEMPORARY and PERMANENT cavity is caused by the bullet. ONE IS TEMPORARY and one Is PERMANENT but BOTH are CAVITIES.
    What I am looking for my 45 Auto is a bullet that will create a 4 inch diameter permanent wound cavity but causes a 1 inch Temporary cavity as it travels through.
    Them temporary cavities do look purty don't they.
    Last edited by 44MAG#1; 09-24-2022 at 09:45 AM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    This is a free world. You can disagree if you want. A TEMPORARY CAVITY see CAVITY is a cavity even though it is TEMPORARY. Hence the word cavity. The bullet shoving it's way through the pliable medium causes both the TEMPORARY and the PERMANENT cavity. How I know is that without the bullet how would we have either? The bullet doesn't just carefully carve a nice neat little hole. The residual effects is caused by the bullet. Both the TEMPORARY and PERMANENT cavity is caused by the bullet. ONE IS TEMPORARY and one Is PERMANENT but BOTH are CAVITIES.
    What I am looking for my 45 Auto is a bullet that will create a 4 inch diameter permanent wound cavity but causes a 1 inch Temporary cavity as it travels through.
    Them temporary cavities do look purty don't they.
    You’re NEVER going to find a combo that creates a 4 inch PERMANENT wound channel, “cavity” if you prefer, and a one inch TEMPORARY cavity… But you can disagree anytime you like.
    It doesn’t matter how many times you try to explain your “cavity relationship”, I’m not buying it! Lol
    Too funny.
    “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”.... Mark Twain

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by cainttype View Post
    You’re NEVER going to find a combo that creates a 4 inch PERMANENT wound channel, “cavity” if you prefer, and a one inch TEMPORARY cavity… But you can disagree anytime you like.
    It doesn’t matter how many times you try to explain your “cavity relationship”, I’m not buying it! Lol
    Too funny.
    So you are saying that TEMPORARY and PERMANENT has no relationship?
    Why can't I get a 4 inch PERMANENT cavity and get a one inch TEMPORARY cavity at the same time?
    If one has nothing to do with the other?
    I don't have any degrees after my name so please be easy with me.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    So you are saying that TEMPORARY and PERMANENT has no relationship?
    Why can't I get a 4 inch PERMANENT cavity and get a one inch TEMPORARY cavity at the same time?
    If one has nothing to do with the other?
    I don't have any degrees after my name so please be easy with me.
    You can stop playing the “Poor dumb me” card… We both know you think much higher of yourself.
    And NO, the Temporary cavity and Permanent wound channel do NOT rely upon each other, they simply exist in the same discussion of wound trauma.
    Think again about what you stated… You’ll catch it if you slow down a little.
    “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”.... Mark Twain

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cainttype View Post
    You can stop playing the “Poor dumb me” card… We both know you think much higher of yourself.
    No, I dont think highly of myself. I am actually a very humble individual.
    And NO, the Temporary cavity and Permanent wound channel do NOT rely upon each other, they simply exist in the same discussion of wound trauma.
    So why cant I get a 4 inch permanent would cavity while getting a 1 inch temporary cavity? That is like saying I am going to take a shower without getting water on me. How would I do that unless I cover myself in a sheet of plastic but if I did that the goal of getting clean wouldnt be accomplished.
    Think again about what you stated… You’ll catch it if you slow down a little.
    Oh, I think alright. Just like mass cannot be weighed.

  11. #51
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    [Quote]Originally Posted by cainttype

    You can stop playing the “Poor dumb me” card… We both know you think much higher of yourself.

    44Mag1
    No, I dont think highly of myself. I am actually a very humble individual.

    And NO, the Temporary cavity and Permanent wound channel do NOT rely upon each other, they simply exist in the same discussion of wound trauma.

    44Mag1
    So why cant I get a 4 inch permanent would cavity while getting a 1 inch temporary cavity? That is like saying I am going to take a shower without getting water on me. How would I do that unless I cover myself in a sheet of plastic but if I did that the goal of getting clean wouldnt be accomplished.

    Think again about what you stated… You’ll catch it if you slow down a little.[Quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    Oh, I think alright. Just like mass cannot be weighed.
    Your “Temporary Cavity” will be your larger diameter “stretch” cavity, while your permanent wound channel will be the smaller diameter wound channel that continues to penetrate.
    “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”.... Mark Twain

  12. #52
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    [QUOTE=cainttype;5463115][Quote]Originally Posted by cainttype

    You can stop playing the “Poor dumb me” card… We both know you think much higher of yourself.

    44Mag1
    No, I dont think highly of myself. I am actually a very humble individual.

    And NO, the Temporary cavity and Permanent wound channel do NOT rely upon each other, they simply exist in the same discussion of wound trauma.

    44Mag1
    So why cant I get a 4 inch permanent would cavity while getting a 1 inch temporary cavity? That is like saying I am going to take a shower without getting water on me. How would I do that unless I cover myself in a sheet of plastic but if I did that the goal of getting clean wouldnt be accomplished.

    Think again about what you stated… You’ll catch it if you slow down a little.



    Your “Temporary Cavity” will be your larger diameter “stretch” cavity, while your permanent wound channel will be the smaller diameter wound channel that continues to penetrate.
    So the TEMPORARY cavity stretches and snaps back and what is left is the actual PERMANENT wound cavity that the bullet carves out.

  13. #53
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    44Mag1
    So the TEMPORARY cavity stretches and snaps back and what is left is the actual PERMANENT wound cavity that the bullet carves out.
    “Carves out”, “crushes”…. Yessir.
    “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”.... Mark Twain

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by cainttype View Post
    “Carves out”, “crushes”…. Yessir.
    So that is the reason it is called temporary. If it wasn't temporary it would be permanent??
    The carved out or crushed cavity is permanent because it stays??

  15. #55
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    Temporary means temporary… Permanent means just that, permanent.
    The initial “stretch cavity” that collapses almost immediately is often referred to as the “Temporary Cavity” because it’s gone by the time the autopsy is conducted… We see it best in gelatin and mediums like modeling clay.
    “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”.... Mark Twain

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by cainttype View Post
    Temporary means temporary… Permanent means just that, permanent.
    The initial “stretch cavity” that collapses almost immediately is often referred to as the “Temporary Cavity” because it’s gone by the time the autopsy is conducted… We see it best in gelatin and mediums like modeling clay.
    I can see that now. I didn't know that.
    I must have had my definitions confused.
    I took temporary as permanent and permanent as temporary.
    So the temporary cavity actually closes up around the permanent cavity and what is seen is the permanent cavity that is left?
    So as the bullet courses through the medium it causes the temporary cavity which rapidly closes up around the permanent cavity that is left and that is what we see.
    Thanks.

  17. #57
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    Exactly.
    Elastic tissues being “stretched” by the Temporary Cavity at typical handgun velocities often show no visible trauma on examination, according to the experts that have done serious work in the forensics field.
    The same type early-contact/excessive stretch in high velocity rifle rounds can cause extensive tissue damage thru “cavitation”… It’s the 2.5K+ fps that makes the difference.

    Exceptions are typically explained by fragmentation, whether bullets or bone shattered…Tiny projectiles flying helter-skelter through vitals can get ugly.
    “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”.... Mark Twain

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by cainttype View Post
    Exactly.
    Elastic tissues being “stretched” by the Temporary Cavity at typical handgun velocities often show no visible trauma on examination, according to the experts that have done serious work in the forensics field.
    The same type early-contact/excessive stretch in high velocity rifle rounds can cause extensive tissue damage thru “cavitation”… It’s the 2.5K+ fps that makes the difference.

    Exceptions are typically explained by fragmentation, whether bullets or bone shattered…Tiny projectiles flying helter-skelter through vitals can get ugly.
    So, with that being said the Meplat of a bullet unless it is wadcutter has no bearing on the woulding capabilities at all. 45 Auto for example, not talking expanding bullets, but hard cast you would just as soon have a 230 RN bullet instead of a 230 grain hard cast bullet with a .300 inch diameter at the same velocity?
    So unless a bullet is a full wadcutter Meplat the flat noses on most bullets in a handgun is useless????
    So I have been duped?
    I may just order me a RN mold from Accurate Molds and retire my 230 grain FP with a .330 inch diameter.
    Thanks for helping me. Would I be better off with a 200 grain RN or a 230. Would a copy of the 230 grain FMJ Jacketed.Profile be better or a copy of most 9MM FMJ profile be better?
    Thanks

  19. #59
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    As I understand and have witnessed the process, what meplat does for you is grab, crush, and tear better than something more streamlined.

    I've posted elsewhere that I visualize our goal as creating a replica of the largest blood vessels in the body (the aorta and vena cava) for the heart to pump blood out through. The projectile that does this as deeply as possible (longest "artery") is what will "drain the bathtub" quickest. A hole of 3/4" to 1.5" is going to do this trick for you, but a ragged .43" to .45" will be no slouch either.

    For handguns, temporary cavity is pretty meaningless as far as solving this problem goes. The FBI's research that gave us the modern gel-shoot protocols was pretty solid science - at rifle impact speeds of about 2,000 fps and up, you'll get cavitation that's rapid enough to tear tissue beyond the bullet's diameter. At less than this (handgun speeds), not really so much, and the tissue just stretches and rebounds - hence the desire for a nose that will mechanically crush and tear more effectively to create a more leaky passage.

    There's some compromises to be made here:

    The LFN types (roughly .30" to .32" meplats for a .44 to .45 caliber bullet) will fly better and feed better in automatics and will still make a good wrecking ball at higher speeds.

    The WFN types (about .34" for same) don't fly as well over distance, but give maximum crush at shorter distances or for lower speed loads.

    Two of Keith's designs are a good example of this: His classic .44 bullet, the 429421 was a great mix of damage-causing potential that was also stable at long range. In contrast, his 452423 .45 Auto-Rim bullet was all about short range, low velocity, blunt force trauma. As I like to say, Elmer must have been mad at the world when he designed that one.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    So, with that being said the Meplat of a bullet unless it is wadcutter has no bearing on the woulding capabilities at all. 45 Auto for example, not talking expanding bullets, but hard cast you would just as soon have a 230 RN bullet instead of a 230 grain hard cast bullet with a .300 inch diameter at the same velocity?
    So unless a bullet is a full wadcutter Meplat the flat noses on most bullets in a handgun is useless????
    So I have been duped?
    I may just order me a RN mold from Accurate Molds and retire my 230 grain FP with a .330 inch diameter.
    Thanks for helping me. Would I be better off with a 200 grain RN or a 230. Would a copy of the 230 grain FMJ Jacketed.Profile be better or a copy of most 9MM FMJ profile be better?
    Thanks
    Where did that come from??.. I must have missed it.
    Of course meplat diameter plays a significant role in the wound channel “crush” diameter in a non-expanding bullet… I haven’t seen anyone dispute that.
    If you can show me, in this entire dead-horse-beating thread where that was said I’d appreciate it.

    You insinuate that someone said such nonsense, so please, show me exactly where that happened instead of fishing for a make-believe argument.
    Last edited by cainttype; 09-24-2022 at 12:21 PM.
    “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”.... Mark Twain

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check