P14 or US1917?

[Texas by God]

I'm seeking a bit of help. I'm putting together a 1917 sporter from parts and I've run into a snag with the cocking piece on the bolt. When I reassemble the bolt, it won't operate properly to cock the striker. The cocking piece won't catch on the sear.
I suspect that the parts house may have sent a P14 cocking piece- is there a good way to tell the difference?
Thanks

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[Der Gebirgsjager]

That's an interesting dilemma-- I have been under the impression that the 1917 and P-14 had only a few engineering differences, and never heard or read that the cocking piece/sear was one of the changes. That might be so, but I'd closely inspect the cocking piece, sear and trigger to see if they've been worked on by someone seeking a lighter trigger pull. I do have one of each as-issued (actually 2 P-14s) and if it becomes necessary I will dig them out and see if the bolts interchange and function.

DG

[Texas by God]

I was thinking that the bolt faces and extractors were different of course, but I don't see why the cocking pieces would be. I'll try to compare the one I have to the image of a correct one.
If the complete bolts are interchangeable, wouldn't that have made a magnum conversion simpler?- Just wondering out loud.....
Thanks DG, as always.

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[Der Gebirgsjager]

Not real sure. A magnum conversion of, let's say, a 1917 to .300 Win. Mag. involves re-chambering (duh...I know..) and the diameter of the rim on the magnum cartridge is larger in diameter, so the bolt face of the 1917 has to be opened up some, again in diameter but not length as the headspace can be set on either the belt or the shoulder. It does seem that (without actually doing a side-by side comparison of the bolts) that the face of the P-14's bolt would be flat and smooth and might be made to work with an extractor change only, and of course re-chambering. But the converted and opened bolt face of the 1917 should retain a small ledge around the top half of the bolt face to stop the upward travel of the magnum cartridge as it feeds from the magazine well and slides beneath the extractor. A P-14 bolt, if the face is completely smooth, might not stop the upward movement of the cartridge and not allow it to properly position for capture by the extractor. But, again, it might work as the .300 Win. mag. is longer than the original .30-06 -- one would have to try. I don't have a spare P-14 bolt that isn't in a rifle, or I'd send it to you to see what might work (or not!). Jerking myself back from wandering afield, your problem seems to be one of the cocking piece not catching on the sear, and I've had that happen a number of times on different rifles, usually rifles of military origin. It is often traceable to the spacing between the two parts, and one has to figure out how or why the spacing has changed. Could be the individual parts have been filed or stoned, could have something to do with the stock's bedding or inletting. That relationship is set by the metal bushing around the stock bolts in such rifles as Mausers. If you for some reason punch them out of the original military stock and then reassemble the rifle you can tighten the bolts enough to jam up the action and it often wont' fire. Or, as you've already said, maybe a wrong part. Often the simplest answer is the correct one, like the infamous case of the Krag cutoff lever.

DG

[405grain]

Even though the parts for the P1914 and the M1917 are "similar", they're not always interchangeable. In fact, of the three manufacturers: Remington, Winchester, & Eddystone, not even all the parts for the same model rifle are interchangeable. The cocking piece is a prime example. The cuts for the safety engagement can be different from different manufacturers. Finding the proper configuration of cocking piece might require doing some internet sleuthing. Also, using a P14 bolt in a M17 receiver to get a magnum bolt face isn't plug and play either. The M17 bolt uses a cone breech on the barrel, where a P14 breech is flat (but with a semi-circular cut for the extended left bolt lug on a P14 bolt). Externally the P14 and the M17 look the same, but internally they're not. In example: the follower on a P14 has a dished cup at it's nose to assist in feeding rimmed cartridges. If you try to use a P14 follower on a rimless cartridge it may cause feeding problems. I've learned all this otherwise useless information because I want to build a 9.5x57 MS rifle using a P1914 receiver with a M1917 bolt & magazine and I've fooled myself into believing that this is something that can be done.

Texas by God: post a photo of the cocking piece and lets see what you've got. The important features to see are the machined cut outs on the cocking piece where it engages with the safety. Also, if there are any stamps or markings on the parts of these rifles, if it's a flaming bomb its a M17, if it's an arrowhead it's a P14.

[Texas by God]

I'll try to post some pics using the IPad later. The cocking piece likes a quarter inch or so from contacting the sear. It doesn't look modified but?
I'll be back, as Arnold says.

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[john.k]

If bits dont fit,quite likely you have the wreckage of those awful "cock on opening" conversions that were sold to the unwary many years ago.

[Texas by God]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]304596[/ATTACH
Hopefully this shows the problem. With the bolt handle lined up with the receiver cutout- you can see the gap between the sear face and cocking piece engagement. I have two bolt bodies, both have flaming bomb- one W and one E.
This is an incomplete .300 Win mag conversion; I will get the operation right before finishing bolt face/ headspace issue. A generous friend gave this to me for a project.
I gave Lees parts a list of what I needed; he may have mixed something up in his busy- ness! An in person visit may be called for!

[405grain]

Bingo! john.k nailed it! You've got the modified cocking piece that's used for a "cock on open" conversion. Here's a photo of a P1914 bolt. Both the P14 and the M17 are "cock on close", just like small ring Mausers. For these to work properly a triangular groove in the bolt body has to be ground. If I'm not mistaken, the firing pin spring doesn't get compressed as much with this conversion, which makes the firing pin strike weaker than normal. It's easy to mess up the triangular cut. It also probably complicates fitting the safety. To fix your problem you're best off replacing the cocking piece. Both Liberty Tree Collectors and Apex Gun Parts have M1917 cocking pieces in stock for about $10. Google up "M1917 Cocking Piece" and you'll find options.

An additional note: The P14 bolt uses a firing pin with a smaller tip (for Berdan primers). When using Boxer primers, the smaller tip can sometimes cause pierced primers. Because of this I replace the P14 firing pin with one from a M17, and drill out the firing pin hole in the bolt face to accept the larger pin. To drill this hole I've had to use carbide hirok straight flute drill bits because (apparently) the bolts on these rifles are made from the hardest steel in existence! I'm giving you this heads-up because you'll be wanting to open the bolt face for a magnum cartridge. Old time gunsmithing books suggest using a tool post grinder to open these bolt faces, but they didn't have the whiz-bang coated carbide inserts we have back then. Just letting you know, in my experience the bolt faces are muy hard.

[Texas by God]

Thank you, sir. I see the difference. I'm one of those guys that C on C never bothered.( I just bought another 1922 Oviedo 7mm rifle.)
I'll get a new 105 year old cocking piece. The W(Winchester) bolt has been partially faced for the magnum case; the E(Eddystone) bolt is untouched. I like these "English Mauser" actions, it should make a nice hunting rifle.

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[405grain]

I forgot to mention something that's kinda important. The bolt lugs on P14's and M17's, and the lug abutments on the receiver, aren't flat like the ones on a Mauser. The Enfield's have a very slight helix to them that cams the bolt just a little bit forward when closing, and back just a little bit when opening. When they were designing these actions they added this feature so that you could crank the bolt closed on a dirty or dented cartridge while standing in a muddy trench near no man's land, or have some extra camming force to pull a stuck case out of the barrel after firing a thousand cartridges at the Huns. Why is this important to you? Because when you're setting the headspace the bolt keeps moving forward until it's all the way closed. Just an FYI.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Thank you, john.k and 405grain, valuable and knowledgeable members both. Someone else will no doubt find this input in the Forum's archives in the future and also benefit.

DG

[Texas by God]

Thank you all. I’ll keep asking things along the way. I’ve only had one P14 in the past, It was a DP rifle and I had Shaw install a .450 Marlin barrel. It actually fed and shot very good with minimal action work, therefore my knowledge is small!

[Texas by God]

Argh. Double post. Operator error.

[georgerkahn]

I'm seeking a bit of help. I'm putting together a 1917 sporter from parts and I've run into a snag with the cocking piece on the bolt. When I reassemble the bolt, it won't operate properly to cock the striker. The cocking piece won't catch on the sear.
I suspect that the parts house may have sent a P14 cocking piece- is there a good way to tell the difference?
Thanks

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One of my most favourite dealers is the Antique & Collectible site, https://oldguns.net/ ,which has a feature which you may wish to explore. To wit, they offer a "swap" for pretty much ALL 1917 parts, as well as the expertise to assist you on your quest to get what you need. (E.g., you send them a part from an Eddystone, and they'll post you the same part for a Winchester, etc., etc.. Fee is fairly nominal, too.) Perhaps you might click on the link, and then get in contact with them? I've never been disappointed with help from either John or Mark -- great gentlemen, too.
Best!
geo

Edit: I looked up the parts swap link, and it may be seen at: https://oldguns.net/catacc.php

[john.k]

Fortunately ,there was probably another million rifles worth of M17 spares made........this didnt happen with the P14s ,and parts are not common.but fortunately the Indian DPs have provided a source of spares recently.

[Tripplebeards]

Looks like an awesome project! I have a Winchester 1917…about 95% percent of its W marked. I should swap you for the W parts of your not using them. Don’t even Remember what parts I have with an E on them…not many of I remember. Love my gun though! I sporterized it decades ago and bright it back to stock a few years back. Did a post here on it. I did a 3 shot group all in the same hole at 100 yards with it the second time out using the long range slide peep sight.

[Texas by God]

Yesterday I made a road trip to Lee's Parts and exchanged the odd parts for the correct parts. They even checked the headspace-and it's good. Lots of parts in that little place and knowledgeable friendly staff.
Onward to action rail and extractor modifications.
Thanks to all.


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[Texas by God]

The cut and try method took 30 minutes on the extractor. I used a 3/8" grinding bit followed by a kratex bit in the Dremel.

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[Bad Ass Wallace]

Well worth restoring, one of my favourites in either P14 or M17. These are all Winchesters one each with parker hale 5B range sights