Paper patching the .303 British

[beemer]

Could be the pp has more bearing surface and the diameter of the bullet being larger than the jacketed caused the increase in velocity. I tried a .0005” thicker paper and got 30 fps gain in velocity.

I wish I understood that a little better. Seems a PP bullet would offer less resistance than copper would. At the same time powder needs some pressure, as in bullet resistance, to burn properly. I think standard cast and lubed lead give a little more velocity compared to jacketed. Maybe someone has the correct answer.

[Flygrimm]

If you want a cheap hardness tester try the pencil test method:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...pencils/page13

I bought a Staedtler drawing pencil set for $14 and the results seem to be reliable based on testing pure lead and clip on wheel weights against the chart numbers.

What is you bore diameter"

What is your groove diameter?

What diameter is your cast boolit?

Are you siziing before patching, after patching or at all?

Are you wet patching or dry patching?

As noted, what worked for me was to ensure the cast boolit was at or a little over bore diameter then patch to groove diameter. I did not size. I chose a paper thickness to suit.

For my .308 I used the as cast bullet at 0.301" then patched to groove diameter and that gave quite good results without much work. For the .303 that 0.301" bpplit wasn'[t working even when patched to groove diameter. So I tried knurling to bring the diameter up to 0.303"/0.304" then patched to groove and that worked. This is with ACWW and wet patching.

I have to think a standard .30 cal. bullet at 0.308"/0.309" would need fairly thin paper at 0.0015" to 0.002" thick or if using thicker paper that the patched boolit should be sized to suit the groove diameter after patching. The patched bullet should be at groove diameter ot a thou or so over groove diameter. My guns all run about 0.314" groove diameter as far as I can measure. I size cast GG boolits to 0.315" and that works well.

I didn't know NOE was having problems. I see he has the 0.301" moulds in stock but not the 0.303" moulds. You could knurl the 0.301" boolits up but you need a knurler to do that. Accurate Molds could make you a 0.303" mould but it would be a small FP boolit.

Not sure this is helping you at all!

If you are stuck using a 0.308"/0.309" boolit try patching to groove diameter +0.001"/0.002" or patching larger than groove diameter then size to groove diameter.

Longbow

Let's answer at least a few of these questions.

As to the bore/groove I'm using a new Criterion barrel so I am ASSUMING for now that it's at least close to .303/.311. I know, I shouldn't assume but seen as it's a 4 groove barrel, once I cast the chamber I should be able to easily measure it. More so than a 5 grove.

The boolit as cast is .3085, wet patched with .003" tracing paper and sized to .314 after drying. I'm probably sizing down a little too much from aboout .320 to .314. I'm hesitant to size before patching as I don't want to destroy any surface hardness I may have. Along with moving the patch up the ogive more I might try to find a thinner paper.

I'm going to at least repeat the 26 grain test to see if I can repeat the accuracy results even though the velocity was just shy of 2000 FPS. If that works at least I think I'm on the right track. I'm then going to make up some more projectiles with the paper wrapped higher up to see if that keeps the bore from leading and also to see if accuracy improves as there was some leading in there after my last range trip. Was it there before or after that string we won't know but I'll at least get some more data.

I'm going to give Lyman a ring. They were the ones who made the original molds for Hatcher way back in the day. Maybe they can do something for me. You never know until you ask!

I hate throwing NOE to the back of the bus but 2 years of waiting and I've begun to lose patience.

Will sizing a .3085 boolit down to .304 have any adverse side effects? I've never done that before.

Thanks

Stuart

EDIT: BTW, I'm thinking something in the .002" range for paper might work as the patched/unsized portion of the boolit is around .307, maybe a tad too big. Any idea on which paper might be in that range?

[steveu]

Seth Cole #55w is about .0015" dry and Seth Cole #56 is about .0019" dry. They will get a little smaller, approx.0005", when wet patched is what I have found.

[barrabruce]

I found if I patch to where the paper is slightly smaller than bore diameter on the bullets nose works for me.
It may not be at the orgive.
If I do patch behind where the bore cuts the bullet then I patch to the front of a groove wet wrapped.
When the paper dries it shrinks back into the bottom of the groove and anchors it there.
I then tend to rub the exposed lead with a lube thou.
Works if you have a nice barrel.

[Hamish]

“ Will sizing a .3085 boolit down to .304 have any adverse side effects? I've never done that before.”- Stuart Flygrimm

Stuart, I have sized .325 cast down to .316, .314, and even .310 with no apparent affect on accuracy.

[Flygrimm]

Posted by Longbow

I didn't know NOE was having problems. I see he has the 0.301" moulds in stock but not the 0.303" moulds. You could knurl the 0.301" boolits up but you need a knurler to do that. Accurate Molds could make you a 0.303" mould but it would be a small FP boolit.

I didn’t realize NOE had the 30 cal PP mold in stock. I just ordered one with a Lyman style top punch. I want to try PP in my 1903 Springfield as well. Maybe try a slightly thicker paper and see how it works in the 303 as well.

Posted by Hamish

Stuart, I have sized .325 cast down to .316, .314, and even .310 with no apparent affect on accuracy.

I might try this with my current Lee boolit to see if I get a better fit after patching.

Stuart

[Flygrimm]

Back to the 303 Brit. I repeated my best results at 26.0 gn of IMR 4198 and had excellent results almost identical to the last. A 1" group at 50 yards. It really likes this load. The only problem is that it's very slow at only 1954 FPS, well off my target of 2500 FPS or so. I also repeated the 29.0 gn load. Although the statistics of the load were very good with an extreme spread of only 34 FPS the group size was a whopping 5" at 50 yards.

So my question to you is this. The current batch of bullets are just wheel weights, a mix of clip on and stick on. I have no idea what their hardness is. Is this boolit too soft to drive at anything above about 2000 FPS. Is it deforming too much? Do I need to move the patch up higher over the ogive? I am getting a bit of leading at the high end as well but not at the lower end. The last batch of 5 shots at 29.0 gn showed a tiny bit of leading but that was all I had made to try so I can't give you a definite idea of how bad it is.

What do you think of me casting some more at a higher hardness. Would that make a difference at higher velocities or am I just chasing my tail? I can order a couple of bars of superhard from RotoMetals to add to my mix.




On the mold front, I contacted NOE a few days ago and am still getting the same story. He said to call back at the end of the year. I'm still wanting to get their 303 paper patch mold. I did purchase their 30 cal paper patch mold and top punch to try in my 30-06. I was hoping to get the 303 done first and use what I have learned to apply to the 30-06. Maybe I should try it the other way.

Thanks for your input.

Stuart

[beemer]

I played with PP in a 30-06 several years back. I used a CTL312-160-2r. The Tumble Lube works well for PP. I sized the bullet, straight wheel weights if I remember correctly, to .308, patched to .313. I lubed with Tumble Lube and sized to .309. I used a gas check, also extended the patch just over the ogive.

I was pushing them fairly hard with up to 47 grs. of W760. Groups were all running below 2" at 100 but most 1 1/2 or better. This was with a nice sporterized 03A3 with a scope. Didn't run them over the chrony.

As far as velocity, I ran the same bullet at .313 with a similar load up to around 2400 fps in a 91/30 7.62 X 54r. without problems.

[mannetjiesroux]

Question... is it possible to use aluminum foil to PP, if not, is it because aluminum can damage the barrel?

[Unclenick]

I don't think you can paper patch with aluminum because it isn't paper. You could foil patch with it. I don't know of anyone who has tried this, but my gut says the foil is too soft and would contribute to metal fouling in the bore, where paper tends to block it.

The old terminology for a metal jacketed bullet is to call it a metal patched bullet. The military and others experimented with various jacket metals for a long time before settling on the common alloy used now. I imagine aluminum was tried at some point, but since I don't see any around currently, I'll guess it didn't fly. One problem with it would be that aluminum in an atmosphere with oxygen always forms an oxide layer on the surface, and aluminum oxide is hard and abrasive, so it would wear bores out faster than copper alloys do.

If you want to experiment with soft metal, I would think the best you could expect is they would turn out sort of like copper-plated lead bullets. If I take some copper foil and some aluminum foil and rub them against a steel sheet, I feel more drag from the aluminum. This corresponds to the kinetic coefficients of friction I see published. They put that coefficient for aluminum and steel at about 1/2 and for copper and steel at just over 1/3.

Anyway, I have copper and lead bore solvents, but no aluminum bore solvent for bore cleaning. If I were going to play with a foil patch, I think I would try something like the copper shielding tape for electronic equipment first. It is soft, like plated jackets, but at least we have cleaning solvents for it.

[mannetjiesroux]

thanks for the detailed reply.

[steveu]

Back to the 303 Brit. I repeated my best results at 26.0 gn of IMR 4198 and had excellent results almost identical to the last. A 1" group at 50 yards. It really likes this load. The only problem is that it's very slow at only 1954 FPS, well off my target of 2500 FPS or so. I also repeated the 29.0 gn load. Although the statistics of the load were very good with an extreme spread of only 34 FPS the group size was a whopping 5" at 50 yards.

So my question to you is this. The current batch of bullets are just wheel weights, a mix of clip on and stick on. I have no idea what their hardness is. Is this boolit too soft to drive at anything above about 2000 FPS. Is it deforming too much? Do I need to move the patch up higher over the ogive? I am getting a bit of leading at the high end as well but not at the lower end. The last batch of 5 shots at 29.0 gn showed a tiny bit of leading but that was all I had made to try so I can't give you a definite idea of how bad it is.

What do you think of me casting some more at a higher hardness. Would that make a difference at higher velocities or am I just chasing my tail? I can order a couple of bars of superhard from RotoMetals to add to my mix.




On the mold front, I contacted NOE a few days ago and am still getting the same story. He said to call back at the end of the year. I'm still wanting to get their 303 paper patch mold. I did purchase their 30 cal paper patch mold and top punch to try in my 30-06. I was hoping to get the 303 done first and use what I have learned to apply to the 30-06. Maybe I should try it the other way.

Thanks for your input.

Stuart

Have you tried water quenching your bullets. If your WW has antimony in it it should harden it up a bit. My 9+1 of WW to lino does harden up after water dropping, however I don't do this for my BP loads which are under 1400 and I get no slumping. I have not shot this in any smaller calibers yet.

FWIW,
Steve

[Flygrimm]

Steve

I always quench my cast boolits. Dumping them in the bucket with a towel in the bottom is just convenient.

I ordered the Lee hardness tester to at least give me an idea where we are. Should be here in a few more days. I will probably get a chance to try it out after my next work trip.

Stuart

[steveu]

I wish I understood that a little better. Seems a PP bullet would offer less resistance than copper would. At the same time powder needs some pressure, as in bullet resistance, to burn properly. I think standard cast and lubed lead give a little more velocity compared to jacketed. Maybe someone has the correct answer.

With 2 wraps around the bullet, the diameter increased .002". Bigger bullet increased the resistance and evidently the pressure which caused a slight velocity increase. However, the load did not shoot as well as the thinner paper.

FWIW,
Steve

[steveu]

Steve

I always quench my cast boolits. Dumping them in the bucket with a towel in the bottom is just convenient.

I ordered the Lee hardness tester to at least give me an idea where we are. Should be here in a few more days. I will probably get a chance to try it out after my next work trip.

Stuart

I use a lee also. It works well once you get the hang of it. Quick tip: cut off the top part of a water bottle, the domed shaped end and punch a hole in the cap to place the magnifier in to hold it. It makes it easier to measure and you can shine a light through the side to illuminate the bullet.

Cheers,
Steve

[longbow]

I guess a good question to ask is if you have read the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd edition?

If is available for download online if you don't have it. On page 114 it states that for velocities in excess of 2500 FPS BHN hardness should be 16 to 20.

https://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Man...-%20Reduce.pdf

If you are sizing bullets you are likely better off to oven heat treat after sizing rather than water quench from the mould then size.

I have never sized down by more than about two or three thou so no personal experience on sizing more than that but Hamish says he has been successful sizing lots more than that.

I don't think I have anything else that may help.

Lolngbow